That is exactly what Paul was doing.
We are saved from the wrath of God on our sin (Ro 5:9) by forgiveness of our sin (Lk 1:77)
through faith in Jesus Christ, and nothing else (Eph 2:8-9).
The works of verse 4 Paul speaks of are works of merit and
NOT all works. Belief is a work and is not excluded. In Rom 6:16-18 Paul speaks of "obedience unto righteousness", and how the Romans had "obeyed from the heart" then they were "freed from sin"/jusitifed
Elin said:
Internal contradiction.
If obedient works save, then they are meritorious works.
Paul does not contradict himself, it isthe faith only advocates that have it all wrong. No verse says obedient works merit salvation. Read Rom 10:3 very carefully and see how Paul says the Jews were going about establishing thier own righteousness (works of merit) and had not submitted (obeyed) the righteousnes of God. This one verses speaks of two DIFFERENT types of works: 1) works or merit 2) obeidence to God's commands and how that works of merit do
NOT save while obeying God's righteous commands
DOES save.
Elin said:
That is contra-NT.
Salvation from God's wrath on our sin (Ro 5:9) through forgiveness of our sin (Lk 1:77)
is by faith alone (Eph 2:8-9).
This faith which saves then obeys.
But the obedience which comes after faith does not save us, for we are already saved from God's wrath (Ro 5:9).
This obedience manifests that our faith is true, and not counterfeit (Mt 7:21-23).
For true faith obeys.
Not a single verse in the NT says salvation is by grace alone or salvation is by faith alone. Those are man-made theologies that men try to force into the NT. Some men do not like God's way of saving men through faithful obedience to CHrist, Heb 5:9, so they have created their own theologies thinking they know better than God.
Elin said:
All the saved are saved out of disobedience and into obedience.
Selective quoting.
Give the whole passage, Eph 2:8-9, which contradicts your statement, and teaches that works
are not involved in salvation.
Noone will be saved while they remain in a state of disobedience. ANd the onlyway out of a state of disobedience is through obedience to God's will.
Again, look at Rom 6:17-18 at the order of events:
1) they were servants of sin
2) they then obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine
3) THEN they wre made freed fromsin (justified)
Note how #2 obedience comes BEFORE 3) being made justified.
Eph 2:9 "not of works" refers to works of merit not a faithful obedince. Aain, Jn 6:27-29 belief is a wrok and not a work Paul was excluding in Eph 2:9. We are told in verse 8 the Ephesians were saved through faith. 1 pet 3:21 Peter says baptism saves. Harmonizing these two verses we get:
Eph 2:8------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1Pet3:21----baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
Since there is just one way to be sved, and the bible does not contradict itslef, the logical implication is that a sving faith includes the workof submitting to water baptism. Just these two verse obliterate the man-made teaching of faith only. No verse anywhere tells us the Ephesians were saved by faith alone. Some 30 or so years later the church at Ephesus had fallen and were told by CHrist "
I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." They were fallen, left their first love for having STOPPED doing those first WORKS. They were commanded to "repent", which is a work also.
Coffman Commentary says of this work: (my emp)
Repent and do the first works ... This is one of the most important clauses in the whole passage; it is the key to understanding what had happened. What were those first works which the Ephesians had stopped doing? They were the commandments of the Lord. Oh, to be sure, they were carrying on an extensive program of works, but such things were not the work of faith. The interpretation that fills many of the commentaries with the view that the Ephesians had all the works they needed misses this point altogether. It was not a question of their having discharged their full obligation regarding works, but a case of their having failed in this very category. They were not, at the time of John's writing, doing the "work of faith"; they were doing their own thing religiously. Such things, no doubt, were indeed good works, else Christ would not have commended them; but the first obligation of every Christian and every church on earth is to do the works Christ commanded. This failure, of course, was due to their having left their first love; and the shameful condition of this congregation is the Biblical exhibit of much that is going on right now in the so-called Christian world of the present time.
Did the Ephesian church heed the admonition here given? It would appear that, for some little time, at least, they did so. Bruce noted, "That the church at Ephesus paid heed to this warning is a fair inference from the testimony of Ignatius, who commends it for its faith and love." F. F. Bruce, A New Testament Commentary (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1969), p. 637.
The Ephesians' salvation was contingent upon their gong back and doing this "work of faith", cf 1 Thess 1:3. They were not keeping Christ's works cf Rev 2:26.
Elin said:
That's not what 1Th 1:3 states: "your work produced by faith"
Works are the result of faith, not the cause of faith.
1 Thess 1:3 KJV "
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;"
Faith modifies the type of work being done.
In Mk 2:5 it says "
Jesus saw their faith..." What in the context of Mk 2:1-5 is it that Jesus saw that is called "faith"?
WORKS. The work the mendid in removing pert of the roof and lower the sick mandown to Jesus, thier wok here is called faith. THe work of removing the roof and lowering the sick man down was their "work of faith".
If faith is not a work, then it is a dead fatih.
Elin said:
Not according to the apostolic teaching of the NT.
Apostolic teaching was about "obedience to the faith" Rom 1:5 "
Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name"
