Is Jesus God?

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Nov 19, 2012
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Re: You have nothing...

your messages are getting shorter because you cannot refute Holy Scripture.
My posts are as long as they need to be.




i am not saying you shouldn't use the term trinity(already mentioned in an earlier post by me),but its not the appropriate term but Godhead is and its not democracy(like your profile pic points out) but there is an order.

The term Trinity is very appropriate....and, as already stated, is an epithet representing ALL of scripture NOT just one word.


"Bring forth ANY Biblical verse which you think somehow thwarts the Trinity and detail to us why it supposedly does." - your words.
The challenge stands un-refuted.



The term trinity is wrong in the sense,Jesus doesn't know everything but He follows what God tells Him(Mathew 24:36 KJV).Jesus is seated now at the right hand of God the Father(Father of Lights -james 1:17 KJV,1 Timothy 6:16,and many more verses if you want to know the God the Father who is "LOVE") to intercede for us even though He has attained the omnipotent everlasting Godhead,because eternity has not come yet.

The KVJ version IS Trinitarian to begin with....what part of this is escaping your intellect...?
 
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Donkeyfish07

Guest
There is a great deal to explain. I do not need to compare John 1:1 to any other text to understand it. Truth is in the grammatical structure of the text. The text says that the Word was God. Are you taking the position that Jesus is not the subject of John 1, that the Word is not God, or are you going to continue you nonsensical assertion that God does not mean God.
The text clearly states that the Word was (or is) God. I haven't posted anything that contradicts this. That's why Iposted the other verses, to show why there is no contradiction. Jesus did not speak his own words, he spoke the words God commanded him to speak.

Of course one needs to compare scripture with scripture, the word of truth must be rightly divided. Satan quoted scripture to Jesus too when he was tempting him in the wilderness, and the quotes he used were written. Jesus responded by saying "It is also written", and provides other scriptures that refute Satans assertions. Anyone can take one verse out of context with the rest of the Bible and claim it means anything they want it to mean. Also, I've never asserted that God is not God. I'm only asserting that there is only one God, not three and that Jesus is God's only begotten son. Are you willing to say this is not scriptural?

Mark 12:28-29:

"And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:"

John 14:28:

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
"

How is believing there is only One god, and not believing it is a conglomerate of 3 persons an erroneous teaching? Jesus himself said that there is only one God, that God is his father, and that his father is greater than him. The entire bible can be understood in these terms without any contradictions.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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The text clearly states that the Word was (or is) God. I haven't posted anything that contradicts this. That's why Iposted the other verses, to show why there is no contradiction. Jesus did not speak his own words, he spoke the words God commanded him to speak.

Of course one needs to compare scripture with scripture, the word of truth must be rightly divided. Satan quoted scripture to Jesus too when he was tempting him in the wilderness, and the quotes he used were written. Jesus responded by saying "It is also written", and provides other scriptures that refute Satans assertions. Anyone can take one verse out of context with the rest of the Bible and claim it means anything they want it to mean. Also, I've never asserted that God is not God. I'm only asserting that there is only one God, not three and that Jesus is God's only begotten son. Are you willing to say this is not scriptural?

Mark 12:28-29:

"And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:"

John 14:28:

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
"

How is believing there is only One god, and not believing it is a conglomerate of 3 persons an erroneous teaching? Jesus himself said that there is only one God, that God is his father, and that his father is greater than him. The entire bible can be understood in these terms without any contradictions.
You are avoiding the question. Does John present Jesus as God in John chapter one?
 
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Donkeyfish07

Guest
You are avoiding the question. Does John present Jesus as God in John chapter one?
You never asked me that question. To answer it, no he doesn't. He presents Jesus as the Son of God. He says so very clearly.

John 1:34 "And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God."

He didn't say "And I saw, and bare record that this is God himself".
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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You never asked me that question. To answer it, no he doesn't. He presents Jesus as the Son of God. He says so very clearly.

John 1:34 "And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God."

He didn't say "And I saw, and bare record that this is God himself".
Next question: Is Jesus the Word of John 1:1?
 
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Spokenpassage

Guest
You never asked me that question. To answer it, no he doesn't. He presents Jesus as the Son of God. He says so very clearly.

John 1:34 "And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God."

He didn't say "And I saw, and bare record that this is God himself".
To be the Son of God is to be God Himself...
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
You never asked me that question. To answer it, no he doesn't. He presents Jesus as the Son of God. He says so very clearly.

John 1:34 "And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God."

He didn't say "And I saw, and bare record that this is God himself".

Who do you think the OT people think the "son of God" was??


Dan 3:
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“Look!” he answered, “I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.”

[SUP]26 [/SUP]Then Nebuchadnezzar went near the mouth of the burning fiery furnace and spoke, saying, “Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, servants of the Most High God, come out, and come here.” Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego came from the midst of the fire.
 
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Donkeyfish07

Guest
No, the Word is God. God dwells in Jesus and he in God. This is how the word was made manifest in the Flesh. Because in Jesus dwelled the fullness of the Godhead. Nowhere in John 1 does it state that the Word and God are separate people, that's just an interpretation theologists of the past have placed upon the text and the tradition has been taught to subsequent generations.

This is why I put the John 12:49 reference in with one of my replies to you above. Since your obviously of the opposite belief, could you explain to me this from your perspective. I'm curious as to how you view it.

If the words Jesus speaks are not his own, and he has told us the truth that he heard from God.......would that not translate into "The word the word speaks aren't his own, but God spoke to the word and gave the word the words to speak? I'm pretty certain you would not explain it that way, but how would you explain it?

And if your perspective were correct, how would you explain Jesus saying that "My father is greater than I" if they are co-equal and both God?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
No, the Word is God. God dwells in Jesus and he in God. This is how the word was made manifest in the Flesh. Because in Jesus dwelled the fullness of the Godhead. Nowhere in John 1 does it state that the Word and God are separate people, that's just an interpretation theologists of the past have placed upon the text and the tradition has been taught to subsequent generations.

This is why I put the John 12:49 reference in with one of my replies to you above. Since your obviously of the opposite belief, could you explain to me this from your perspective. I'm curious as to how you view it.

If the words Jesus speaks are not his own, and he has told us the truth that he heard from God.......would that not translate into "The word the word speaks aren't his own, but God spoke to the word and gave the word the words to speak? I'm pretty certain you would not explain it that way, but how would you explain it?

And if your perspective were correct, how would you explain Jesus saying that "My father is greater than I" if they are co-equal and both God?
who was the God of Israel? WHo spoke to moses?
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
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No, the Word is God. God dwells in Jesus and he in God. This is how the word was made manifest in the Flesh. Because in Jesus dwelled the fullness of the Godhead. Nowhere in John 1 does it state that the Word and God are separate people, that's just an interpretation theologists of the past have placed upon the text and the tradition has been taught to subsequent generations.

This is why I put the John 12:49 reference in with one of my replies to you above. Since your obviously of the opposite belief, could you explain to me this from your perspective. I'm curious as to how you view it.

If the words Jesus speaks are not his own, and he has told us the truth that he heard from God.......would that not translate into "The word the word speaks aren't his own, but God spoke to the word and gave the word the words to speak? I'm pretty certain you would not explain it that way, but how would you explain it?

And if your perspective were correct, how would you explain Jesus saying that "My father is greater than I" if they are co-equal and both God?
You obviously have never studied Greek to any real extent have you? The power of the language in John 1:1 leaves us with no alternative but to accept that Jesus as the Word is God just as the language states. Are you really sure you want to pursue this with me, because you are about to get in over your head.
 

gzusfrk

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2013
359
5
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No, the Word is God. God dwells in Jesus and he in God. This is how the word was made manifest in the Flesh. Because in Jesus dwelled the fullness of the Godhead. Nowhere in John 1 does it state that the Word and God are separate people, that's just an interpretation theologists of the past have placed upon the text and the tradition has been taught to subsequent generations.

This is why I put the John 12:49 reference in with one of my replies to you above. Since your obviously of the opposite belief, could you explain to me this from your perspective. I'm curious as to how you view it.

If the words Jesus speaks are not his own, and he has told us the truth that he heard from God.......would that not translate into "The word the word speaks aren't his own, but God spoke to the word and gave the word the words to speak? I'm pretty certain you would not explain it that way, but how would you explain it?

And if your perspective were correct, how would you explain Jesus saying that "My father is greater than I" if they are co-equal and both God?
In Revelations 19:13, The person sitting on the horse that judges and has a robe dipped in blood is called The Word of God, since all judgement has been given to Jesus, He would be the Word. Jesus did not equate Himself to God because of who He was or is ,so to speak, He was humble.
 
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Donkeyfish07

Guest
who was the God of Israel? WHo spoke to moses?
Yahweh, but of course I'm aware your wanting me to say "I am that I am". And yes, I'm aware that jesus has made I Am statements. Most notably, "Before Abraham I am"
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Yahweh, but of course I'm aware your wanting me to say "I am that I am". And yes, I'm aware that jesus has made I Am statements. Most notably, "Before Abraham I am"
well I am glad you thought that. But no.

I was thinking more of this.


Isaiah 48: 12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. 13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together. 14 '"All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. 15 I, even I, have spoken; Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper. 16 Come ye near unto me, Hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I, and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Is 63:7-10a : I will mention the loving kindness of the Lord and the praises of the Lord, according to all the Lord has bestowed upon us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, Which he has bestowed upon them according to his mercies. For he said..Surely they are my people, children who will not lie, so he became their SAVIOR. in all their affliction he was afflicted. and the angel of his presence saved them. in his love and his pity he redeemed them. and he bore them and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit.

You can not look at these two passages, and not know this is the son of God being spoken of. The YHWH of Israel. The pre-incarnate Jesus

 
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Donkeyfish07

Guest
You obviously have never studied Greek to any real extent have you? The power of the language in John 1:1 leaves us with no alternative but to accept that Jesus as the Word is God just as the language states. Are you really sure you want to pursue this with me, because you are about to get in over your head.
I'm not a fluent reader of Greek although I have had to study it on occasions where someone claims the Greek means something different than the English does. I'm not disputing the meaning of John 1, I'm only disputing an interpretation of it. Feel free to present your argument of the Greek and I'll look into it. I would appreciate it if you answered my questions from earlier though, I've answered all of yours.
 
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Donkeyfish07

Guest
well I am glad you thought that. But no.

I was thinking more of this.


Isaiah 48: 12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. 13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together. 14 '"All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. 15 I, even I, have spoken; Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper. 16 Come ye near unto me, Hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I, and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Is 63:7-10a : I will mention the loving kindness of the Lord and the praises of the Lord, according to all the Lord has bestowed upon us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, Which he has bestowed upon them according to his mercies. For he said..Surely they are my people, children who will not lie, so he became their SAVIOR. in all their affliction he was afflicted. and the angel of his presence saved them. in his love and his pity he redeemed them. and he bore them and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit.

You can not look at these two passages, and not know this is the son of God being spoken of. The YHWH of Israel. The pre-incarnate Jesus

Forgive my assumption then, I was expecting a very commonly presented point. I've seen that question before. Of course God is salvation. The name Jesus in hebrew actually means "Yahweh is Salvation". I love the book of Isiah, that book and the Psalms are the ones with the most Messianic Prophecies.

Isaiah 53:10-11:

"Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities."

Jesus is how God saved us. That is the foundational belief of Christianity

John 3:16:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

It's one of the most beautiful verses in the entire bible
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Forgive my assumption then, I was expecting a very commonly presented point. I've seen that question before. Of course God is salvation. The name Jesus in hebrew actually means "Yahweh is Salvation". I love the book of Isiah, that book and the Psalms are the ones with the most Messianic Prophecies.

Isaiah 53:10-11:

"Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities."

Jesus is how God saved us. That is the foundational belief of Christianity

John 3:16:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

It's one of the most beautiful verses in the entire bible
So then you believe Jesus was the YHWH of Israel. the creator of the universe as IS 48 quite clearly says?
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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I'm not a fluent reader of Greek although I have had to study it on occasions where someone claims the Greek means something different than the English does. I'm not disputing the meaning of John 1, I'm only disputing an interpretation of it. Feel free to present your argument of the Greek and I'll look into it. I would appreciate it if you answered my questions from earlier though, I've answered all of yours.
Your previous questions will be answered in turn. We are going to deal with ONLY one text at a time. Let us begin with the grammatical structure of the Greek in John 1.

The first thing that must be acknowledged is that Greek, like any other language, has rules of grammar that MUST be followed or language is rendered ineffective as a tool of communication. Words have meanings and every word of scripture is deliberately chosen for effect. Contrary to popular opinion, one cannot make scripture say just anything one wishes it to say. It will only say what God intends for it to say, nothing more, nothing less. Anything else is a prostitution of the grammar and a perversion of truth.

These arguments and comments do not originate with me. I have them from a professor of New Testament Greek. I have taken the liberty to rework some of the arguments and added some of my own comments and observations.

John 1:1 εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος
"In beginning was the Word and the word was with the God and God was the Word." There three prepositional phrases present an ontology of God.

There are a couple of things you need to know about Greek syntax in order to understand what John is really saying in this verse. First, Koine Greek normally drops the article in a prepositional phrase. The absence of the article in a prepositional phrase is normal, and doesn't mean anything. It is the INCLUSION of the article in any prepositional phrase that is unusual, and thus has significant meaning.

The prepositional phrase "εν αρχη" ("In beginning") doesn't contain an article, but is still properly translated "in the beginning." The prepositional phrase "προς τον θεον," ("The Word was God") however, does include the article (τον). Since it was proper not to include the article here, the INCLUSION of the article means something. In general, the inclusion of an article when it is not expected means you are being very specific about a particular individual who is God. In order to fully understand how that effects this verse, we need to go to the last clause. To understand the implications of the last clause, you need to understand Greek syntax. First, Greek distinguishes the role a noun plays in a sentence by changing the case. In general, if the noun is the subject, it is in the nominative case. If it is the direct object, it is in the accusative case. However, there is a strange class of verbs that do not take a direct object, they take a predicate. There are three verbs that do this in Koine Greek. This means that you have two nouns that are the same case (nominative), where one is the subject, and one is the predicate. So if both are in the same case, how do you know which is the subject, and which is the predicate?

Here are the rules: Notice, I said these are rules. You can't ignore them, you can't change them, you can't remove them, and you can't add to them or manipulate them in any way!
1. If both nouns of the same case have the article attached, then the first is the subject, the second is the predicate.
2. If NEITHER noun has the article attached, then the first is the subject, the second is the predicate.
3. If one has an article, but the other does not, then the one WITH the article is the subject, and the one without the article is the predicate.

Are you with me so far?
 
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Richie_2uk

Guest
It's amazing how people has gone to great length's to confuse the op. the question asked was simple, it was a simple yes or no question. Let this scripture explain, in short and clear the answer to the question. John 10: 30. " I and the Father are one. "I meaning Jesus. there is no one else. I meaning Jesus and the father are one.
 
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Donkeyfish07

Guest
So then you believe Jesus was the YHWH of Israel. the creator of the universe as IS 48 quite clearly says?
I believe Jesus is the Son of YHWH as Jesus himself quite clearly says.

John 9:35-37:

"Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee"
 
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Spokenpassage

Guest
To be a son is to share the same nature as the father.

Jesus being the Son of God means He shares God's nature; being the Son of man means He shares man's nature. Christ had both natures, being fully God and fully man. He is both the Son of God and the Son of man.