Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[eternally-gratefull]

Are you meaning this as an insult or are you saying that Jesus does not baptize with the Holy Spirit?

Now maybe you will see why I have been so hard on certain people?

He was being both

 

[Jabberjaw]

Are you meaning this as an insult or are you saying that Jesus does not baptize with the Holy Spirit?

I mean that Jesus is the only one who baptized <-- past tense intended, with the Holy Spirit, once to the Jew (the Apostles) once to the Gentile (house of Cornelius), only twice, fulfilling the prophecy of Joel.

Water baptism is the only authorized baptism by His disciples, it is the baptism of Eph. 4:5 (one baptism).

It is water baptism that remits sins, not baptism of the HS :

Acts 22:16 (NKJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'

If he thinks he is sinless and not been water baptized to wash away his sins, and remains faithful, then he is in for a rude awakening,

I was not insulting him, although I think he was insulting me.

 

[konroh]

Being declared righteous before God is by faith alone. There is no works that you have to add to that, whether it's obeying the law or any good thing that you do. Salvation-justification before God is by faith alone, and that faith can indeed be alone. If someone driving down the road listens to the gospel and believes and then the next second gets in an accident and dies, she will go to heaven. If someone hears the gospel and believes and his life looks like he didn't change at all, that person is still going to heaven. Not having works does not negate initial faith. This is why Paul says, "Shall we continue to sin that grace may abound?" You mean God's grace is so free and so simple that I can continue to sin? Yes, absolutely.

But the question is not can you, but should you? Should you continue to sin? No, why should we who died to sin still live in it? But radically, unbelievably and biblically, the answer to the question "Can you continue to sin and still be saved" is an unequivocal, beautiful YES! WHAT IF I DON'T HAVE ANY GOOD WORKS? AM I STILL SAVED? YES!!!!!!!

Good works never have, never will deliver one from the penalty of sin, not before, during or after faith.

What about James 2? James is talking to believers and telling them that one's faith is useful and grows by works. We are sanctified by a growing faith, we are saved from the power of sin in our lives. This is a message to believers already, believers who already had faith and were saved from the penalty of sin, justified before God. But being vindicated/justified before man is by faith that is made alive by works. This is not justification-salvation, this is sanctification-salvation. Huge difference and until this is clear in your minds you are never going to properly understand the relationship between faith and works.

Faith saves us, faith alone, no works. We are delivered from hell and gain entrance to heaven only by faith.

But a growing faith made alive by works also saves us from the power of sin now, and it produces rewards both in this life and the life to come, abundant entrance into the kingdom, acknowledgement before God, "Well done good and faithful servant" and precious stones and glory at the judgment seat of Christ. This is sanctifying faith.

I pray the simplicity of the clear gospel of the good news is heard and understood by all.

 

[cfultz3]

I mean that Jesus is the only one who baptized <-- past tense intended, with the Holy Spirit, once to the Jew (the Apostles) once to the Gentile (house of Cornelius), only twice, fulfilling the prophecy of Joel.

Water baptism is the only authorized baptism by His disciples, it is the baptism of Eph. 4:5 (one baptism).

It is water baptism that remits sins, not baptism of the HS :

Acts 22:16 (NKJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'

If he thinks he is sinless and not been water baptized to wash away his sins, and remains faithful, then he is in for a rude awakening,

I was not insulting him, although I think he was insulting me.

It is said in Mat 3:11, Mar 1:8, Joh 1:33 that Jesus will baptize/ does baptize with the Holy Spirit (and with fire).

We understand that John baptized with water for remission of sin (it seems that from a remission of sin, that one receives life). But, we come to Acts 11 where it speaks about Jesus and His baptism of the Holy Spirit. If you would, allow me to break it down in a summation form.

V1 = the Gentiles received the word of God.

V2 = the Jews (the circumcised) contented with Peter.

V3 = they contented that he ate with the Gentiles (the uncircumcised).

v4-6 = Peter has a vision of unclean things (the Gentiles, according to Jewish understanding).

v7-8 = He was told to eat, but no way would a Jew have anything to do with anything unclean (Gentiles).

v9 = But the voice said, "What God has cleansed, do not call common." (God has cleansed the Gentiles, no more unclean).

v14 = Caesarea (a Gentile) was told that the words which Peter would tell him would save him and his household.

v15 = Peter said that as he began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them (Gentiles) as He did on them (he, apostles, breathen) in the beginning.

v16 = Peter remembered what the Lord said, 'John indeed baptized with water. but you all shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit'.

v17 = Peter reckoned that God gave them (Gentiles) the same gift as He did to them (Peter, Aposles, breathen).​

Listen:

v18 = Then has God ALSO to the GENTILES granted REPENTANCE INTO LIFE.​

Indeed, this is most assuredly true:

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.​

 

[Alligator]

Being declared righteous before God is by faith alone. There is no works that you have to add to that, whether it's obeying the law or any good thing that you do. Salvation-justification before God is by faith alone, and that faith can indeed be alone. If someone driving down the road listens to the gospel and believes and then the next second gets in an accident and dies, she will go to heaven. If someone hears the gospel and believes and his life looks like he didn't change at all, that person is still going to heaven. Not having works does not negate initial faith. This is why Paul says, "Shall we continue to sin that grace may abound?" You mean God's grace is so free and so simple that I can continue to sin? Yes, absolutely.

But the question is not can you, but should you? Should you continue to sin? No, why should we who died to sin still live in it? But radically, unbelievably and biblically, the answer to the question "Can you continue to sin and still be saved" is an unequivocal, beautiful YES! WHAT IF I DON'T HAVE ANY GOOD WORKS? AM I STILL SAVED? YES!!!!!!!

Good works never have, never will deliver one from the penalty of sin, not before, during or after faith.

What about James 2? James is talking to believers and telling them that one's faith is useful and grows by works. We are sanctified by a growing faith, we are saved from the power of sin in our lives. This is a message to believers already, believers who already had faith and were saved from the penalty of sin, justified before God. But being vindicated/justified before man is by faith that is made alive by works. This is not justification-salvation, this is sanctification-salvation. Huge difference and until this is clear in your minds you are never going to properly understand the relationship between faith and works.

Faith saves us, faith alone, no works. We are delivered from hell and gain entrance to heaven only by faith.

But a growing faith made alive by works also saves us from the power of sin now, and it produces rewards both in this life and the life to come, abundant entrance into the kingdom, acknowledgement before God, "Well done good and faithful servant" and precious stones and glory at the judgment seat of Christ. This is sanctifying faith.

I pray the simplicity of the clear gospel of the good news is heard and understood by all.

we need to let the Scriptures speak for themselves, and not through the voice of John Calvin. I am not calling you a Calvinist, but virtually everything in your post is straight out of Calvinism.

to say we are saved by faith alone, contradicts James: 224 as well as other New Testament passages. It is quite simple. Justification in this passage means innocent, free, righteous. You're trying to plug in the word sanctification into this meaning really doesn't change it. If you think you can continue sinning and still remain saved read Hebrews chapter 10:26–27 and second Peter 2:20-21.

 

[konroh]

James 2:24 says that Abraham was justified/vindicated before men by His works, not by his faith alone. This example has already been given. To tell a sister or brother, "Be warmed," but to do nothing about it doesn't justify one's faith to them. Abraham justified his faith by sacrificing up Isaac. This vindicated his faith, not before God but before men. Paul's use of justification is before God, James' use is before men. This is clear from the context.

Truly it is a fearful thing to fall into God's hands, Hebrews 10, especially if He's punishing you. But notice the conclusion of the matter, the author of Hebrews is encouraging his Christian brethren to stay the course, verse 35 - 36, Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.

The warning is to Christians who are in danger not of losing salvation but of losing reward. Salvation cannot be lost.

2 Peter 2:20-21 is another warning to not be entangled by sin. Of course a Christian who is entangled by sin is worse than a non-Christian entangled by sin, the Christian has the truth and is not living it! That's horrendous. But notice the illustration, a dog returning to its own vomit, or a pig after washing returning to the mire. This is what a Christian shouldn't do, we shouldn't eat our own vomit (that we've been saved from) or wallow in mire after being cleansed.

Should we? No. Can we? Why else do you think Hebrews and Peter are so illustrative in their warnings? Because that's exactly what we can do!!!!!!!!

 

[Alligator]

James 2:24 says that Abraham was justified/vindicated before men by His works, not by his faith alone. This example has already been given. To tell a sister or brother, "Be warmed," but to do nothing about it doesn't justify one's faith to them. Abraham justified his faith by sacrificing up Isaac. This vindicated his faith, not before God but before men. Paul's use of justification is before God, James' use is before men. This is clear from the context.

Truly it is a fearful thing to fall into God's hands, Hebrews 10, especially if He's punishing you. But notice the conclusion of the matter, the author of Hebrews is encouraging his Christian brethren to stay the course, verse 35 - 36, Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.

The warning is to Christians who are in danger not of losing salvation but of losing reward. Salvation cannot be lost.

2 Peter 2:20-21 is another warning to not be entangled by sin. Of course a Christian who is entangled by sin is worse than a non-Christian entangled by sin, the Christian has the truth and is not living it! That's horrendous. But notice the illustration, a dog returning to its own vomit, or a pig after washing returning to the mire. This is what a Christian shouldn't do, we shouldn't eat our own vomit (that we've been saved from) or wallow in mire after being cleansed.

Should we? No. Can we? Why else do you think Hebrews and Peter are so illustrative in their warnings? Because that's exactly what we can do!!!!!!!!

please give me the scriptures that say no matter what we do, we cannot be lost. Also, it is very clear by reading the last part of Hebrews 10, that he's talking about heaven and hell, not merely awards. Gal. 5:4, Jas. 5:19-20, I Tim. 4:1 among others show that a Christian can no doubt be lost.

 

[cfultz3]

James 2:24 says that Abraham was justified/vindicated before men by His works, not by his faith alone. This example has already been given. To tell a sister or brother, "Be warmed," but to do nothing about it doesn't justify one's faith to them. Abraham justified his faith by sacrificing up Isaac. This vindicated his faith, not before God but before men. Paul's use of justification is before God, James' use is before men. This is clear from the context.

Truly it is a fearful thing to fall into God's hands, Hebrews 10, especially if He's punishing you. But notice the conclusion of the matter, the author of Hebrews is encouraging his Christian brethren to stay the course, verse 35 - 36, Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.

The warning is to Christians who are in danger not of losing salvation but of losing reward. Salvation cannot be lost.

What was that promised? Heb 4:1......

Shall we not, if we patiently endure (Heb 6:15), receive this promise of everlasting inheritance? Heb 9:15

 

[Elin]

Being declared righteous before God is by faith alone. There is no works that you have to add to that, whether it's obeying the law or any good thing that you do. Salvation-justification before God is by faith alone, and that faith can indeed be alone. If someone driving down the road listens to the gospel and believes and then the next second gets in an accident and dies, she will go to heaven. If someone hears the gospel and believes and his life looks like he didn't change at all, that person is still going to heaven. Not having works does not negate initial faith. This is why Paul says, "Shall we continue to sin that grace may abound?"
You mean God's grace is so free and so simple that I can continue to sin? Yes, absolutely. . .But radically, unbelievably and biblically,
the answer to the question "Can you continue to sin and still be saved" is an unequivocal, beautiful YES! WHAT IF I DON'T HAVE ANY GOOD WORKS? AM I STILL SAVED? YES!!!!!!!

Not according to Paul:

"Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means!
We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?" (Ro 6:1-2)

Paul says we can't live in sin any longer.

John says the same:

"No one born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother (believer)." (1Jn 3:9-10)

But the question is not can you, but should you?

Not according to Paul and John.

The question is can you, and the answer is no, you cannot.

If you can, then you are not a child of God (1Jn 3:10).

How did you get something so simple so wrong?

 

[SeaBass]

Dude.

Merit. Means you are working TO EARN SOMETHING. Your trying to MERIT something by the work or payment you are giving.

ANY Work which merits a reward, a wage or anything is a work of merit.

A GOOD WORK is a work you do NOT EXPECTING ANYTHING IN RETURN. that is why it is NOT A WORK OF MERIT.

But you cannot earn something that has already been offered to you up front for free. The most you can do is either 1)reject that free gift or 2) accept it. If you accept that free gift then you must accept the conditions attached to that free gift, and meeting those conditions cannot earn you something already offered to you up front for free.

Therefore the works of belief, repentance, confession and submitting to baptism earn nothing but are conditions attached to the free gift already offered for free.

 

[SeaBass]

IF NOAH DID NOT DO ANY WORK. HE HAD NO FAITH!!

If Noah had an obedient faith, he would have built the ark and be saved by that OBEDIENT faith...

Heb 11:7 "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

Noah's faith MOVED with fear, PREPARED an ark. Why did Noah's faith do these works of moving and preparing? "...to the saving of his house".


So obedient works DO SAVE. Again, if Noah had faith only that is void of works, he would NOT have done the works of moving and preparing and therefore his house would have been lost.

 

[SeaBass]

Please explain the difference between works of merit which do not save,
and works of obedience which do save.
Please give examples of each.

Please address these seven Scriptures:

Eph 2:8-10 - "For it is by grace (not by obedience) you have been saved, through faith (not through obedience),
--and this (salvation) not from yourselves (not because of your obedience), it is the gift of God--
not by works, so that no man can boast. For we are God's workmanship (we are the clay in which
the potter alone forms the image)."

If my obedience is the reason God saves me, then I can boast that I did what my own brother
did not do, I obeyed, and he did not.
However, NT apostolic teaching is that salvation is a gift of God so that. . .I cannot boast,
for there is not one thing in all of it that I can boast about.
God gets all the glory, I get none based on my part, for I had no part.

Ro 1:17 - "In the gospel is revealed a righteousness (justification: legal positional right standing
before God, guiltlessness)
that is by faith, from first to last (man's obedience plays absolutely no part in it), just as it is written,
'The righteous will live by faith.' "

Ro 3:21-24 - "But now a righteousness apart from law (apart from works of obedience),
has been made known, to which the law and prophets testify.
This righteousness from God (not from our obedience)
comes through faith in Jesus Christ (not through obedience)
to all who believe (not perform works of obedience). . .
and are justified freely by his grace (not on the merit of any obedience)
through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

Ro 5:17 - "For if, by the trespass of one man, death reigned through the one man, how much more
will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life
through the one man, Jesus Christ."

The above Scriptures show that the righteousness of or from God, which is justification,
is a free gift.
It is not the result of obedience to God's righteous commands.

This free gift of justification is simply the legal declaration of guiltlessness, it is not a change of character.
The change of character follows, in the obedience of faith, which sanctifies.

Ro 6:16-18 - "Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey them,
you are slaves to the one you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death,
or to obedience which leads to righteousness.
But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed
the form of teaching to which you were entrusted.
You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

This (obedience) is not referring to justification/righteousness; i.e., legal declaration of acquittal
from guilt.

Nor is it a causal linkage of events from sin, to obedience, to righteousness. . .or whatever.
In the context of Ro 6, that grace does not give us the freedom to sin (Ro 6:1-2), Paul is simply
addressing the issue raised by some that justification by faith alone would remove all moral restraint.
He is showing that a Christian does not throw morality to the winds but, on the contrary, he exchanges
sin for righteousness as his new master.
The "obedience which leads to righteousness" is the obedience which results from faith and is the
process of sanctification.

Note that Paul uses "righteousness" in two ways:

a) justification - legal declaration of acquittal of guilt, of right standing before God,
because of forgiveness of sin, which saves (Lk 1:77) from God's wrath (Ro 5:9),
through faith in his atoning sacrifice (Ro 3:25) which paid the penalty for sin;
"righteousness" as used in Ro 1:17, 3:21-24, 5:17, 9:30-31, 11:5-6.
Justification/righteousness is not a change of character, only a positional legal standing
of guiltlessness before God.

b) sanctification - the process of holiness, by the power of the Holy Spirit, through the obedience
produced by faith, which is a change of character; "righteousness" as used in Ro 6:16-18.

Ro 9:30-31 - "What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have
obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not
attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works."

Ro 11:5-6 - At the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is
no longer by works; if it were, grace (mercy) would no longer be grace.

Then in addition to "righteousness," there is another NT revelation that has direct bearing
on this issue, and it is the meaning of the "natural man" and the "spiritual man."

Since the fall of Adam, there have been only two groups of people in God's world.
a) the born again (Jn 3:3) into eternal life by the Holy Spirit through faith (the regenerate, or spiritual man),
b) and those who are not born again into eternal life (the unregenerate, or natural man).

Apostolic teaching in Ro 8:7-8 reveals that the unregenerate/natural man's mind is
hostile to God (rebellious),
does not submit to God's law (insubordinate), and
does not, because it cannot, please God (spiritually powerless).

That is the position of everyone, without exception, before they are born again (Jn 3:3)
by the power of the Holy Spirit through faith.
No matter how religious one is, no matter how many works of righteousness one does,
if one is not born again, he cannot even see the kingdom of God (Jn 3:3), much less enter it (Jn 3:5).
The Pharisees were very religious and did many works of righteousness.
And yet they were not righteous.

So according to apostolic teaching, there is no obedience pleasing to God by those who are not born again,
there is no obedience which is the reason God saves anyone.
All are saved out of disobedience into obedience.

"Salvation Not Possible Without Works" contradicts the apostolic teaching presented above.

Be sure you understand that those who are saved will practice Biblical obedience,
but their obedience is the result of their salvation, it is not the cause of their salvation.

Faith-->Salvation-->Biblical Obedience

Please do not bother us with your false gospel of salvation by works

which Paul anathematizes (Gal 1:8-9), and which does not save,

until you have reconciled your false understanding to the NT gospel in the above Scritures.

I addressed all of this in another thread:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/83094-letter-romans-43.html#post1468789

You post "Please explain the difference between works of merit which do not save,
and works of obedience which do save.
Please give examples of each."

Your issue is that you do not know the difference between these two works. All works are not alike and Rom 10:3 differentiates betweens these two works showing works of merit do not saved and submitting to God's commandments does save.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But you cannot earn something that has already been offered to you up front for free. The most you can do is either 1)reject that free gift or 2) accept it. If you accept that free gift then you must accept the conditions attached to that free gift, and meeting those conditions cannot earn you something already offered to you up front for free.

you do not get it

if there are conditions.. IT IS NOT FREE..

The conditions are the PAYMENT

Therefore the works of belief, repentance, confession and submitting to baptism earn nothing but are conditions attached to the free gift already offered for free.

not free..

end of story.

 

[TrustInJesus]

Not free, but already paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ.

 

[Elin]

I addressed all of this in another thread:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/83094-letter-romans-43.html#post1468789

You post "Please explain the difference between works of merit which do not save,
and works of obedience which do save.
Please give examples of each."

Your issue is that you do not know the difference between these two works. All works are not alike and Rom 10:3 differentiates betweens these two works showing works of merit do not saved and submitting to God's commandments does save.

Yep, and you can't explain the difference to me, which I have asked you to do several times.

So until you can clearly explain it, it does not exist.

Likewise, you do not use "works" in its NT sense, which is the Law.

There are no works of the law which save.

Please present your response in NT terms.

 

[JGIG]

please give me the scriptures that say no matter what we do, we cannot be lost.

Please provide us with the Scriptures that tell us that Jesus' once-for-all, for-all-time, Perfect Sacrifice was not enough to forgive all sins.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Also, it is very clear by reading the last part of Hebrews 10, that he's talking about heaven and hell, not merely awards. Gal. 5:4, Jas. 5:19-20, I Tim. 4:1 among others show that a Christian can no doubt be lost.

Hebrews 10, ALL of the chapter along with ALL of the letter, is speaking of the superiority of the New Covenant over the Old Covenant. The last part of Hebrews 10 is about the specific sin of unbelief - unbelief in the sufficiency of the Perfect Sacrifice of Christ, and those who were trying to add to it - they were the ones who were 'continuing to sin' - the sin of unbelief - the only sin that cannot be forgiven.

-JGIG

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

Please provide us with the Scriptures that tell us that Jesus' once-for-all, for-all-time, Perfect Sacrifice was not enough to forgive all sins.

-JGIG

In terms of forgiving for our sins, Jesus sacrifice wasn't only for that. We are not jews. If Jesus didn't die on the cross, we wouldn't be allowed into Heaven. Also, it allows for us to repent, it doesn't mean regardless of what sin we do we are automatically forgiven. If that was the case, then why would 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 even exist?

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.



In addition to this, I would like to say something before I continue. I am not advocating, and neither in my opinion is SeaBass, that a specific amount of works is required to enter Heaven. Say for example, 100 pounds of good works. What I am saying, is that good works are a testament to your faith. It shows your faith with good works. Faith is required to enter Heaven. I will now post scripture that agrees with what I am saying.

Ephesians 2:8-9

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.

See, what it says above is that under Grace, only faith is needed to enter Heaven. It is also saying how a specific amount of Good works is required, just like I said above. Now lets read verses that say for you to do good works. Starting with Ephesians 2:10:

Ephesians 2:10

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Matthew 5:16

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.


Luke 10:30-37

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
[SUP]34 [/SUP]And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
[SUP]37 [/SUP]And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.


So now we can understand a few things:
1) Faith is required to enter Heaven. Under grace, it is all that is required.
2) A specific amount of good works are not required to enter Heaven
3) We are told to do good works.

Now let me post more scripture and I will comment on what it means. Just read it and you'll understand but I'm just making this a smooth process.


James 2:14-17

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.


James 2:18

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.


James 2:26

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


2 Timothy 3:17

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.


Now we can understand that Works are a testament to your faith. Or as it says in James 2:26, "...faith without works is dead also.". This is because we are to do good works. It has been instructed to us in other passages, but also because works represent our faith. Now you may disagree with me, I will show some passages that show how works can determine your faith in a negative way. The posts above were somewhat in a positive way, now to show the negative side:


Titus 1:16

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.


So to recap what I have shown:

1. Faith is required to enter Heaven
2. A specific amount of works do not get you into Heaven, such as 100 pounds of works
3. Works represent your faith.
4. Works can be good or bad.

Now to continue on, I will show the punishments for doing bad works. I have already shown 1 example, but I will get more indepth:

Matthew 25:31-46

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP]When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
[SUP]33 [/SUP]And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
[SUP]35 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
[SUP]39 [/SUP]Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[SUP]42 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
[SUP]43 [/SUP]I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Matthew 7:21-23

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


[Note God know whats in your mind].Now specifically about Matthew 7:21-23 some have argued that they were not true Christians. To prove that wrong, I would like to quote Mark 16:16-18:


Mark 16:16-18

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
[SUP]18 [/SUP]They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


So there you go. I have shown how works are a representation of your faith. I have shown how faith is required to enter Heaven. I also have shown how works can be positive or negative.

I hope this explains to you how works are important. Remember, Grace is the ability for non-jews to enter Heaven as well as for people to repent for their sins. On that topic, I would like to close with this Bible verse:


1 John 3:8

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In terms of forgiving for our sins, Jesus sacrifice wasn't only for that. We are not jews. If Jesus didn't die on the cross, we wouldn't be allowed into Heaven. Also, it allows for us to repent, it doesn't mean regardless of what sin we do we are automatically forgiven. If that was the case, then why would 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 even exist?

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1st off, why the long drawn out posts? Do you think they make you more spiritual and right?

2nd. Paul answers this question. As usual. you guys fail to post the whole passage
[SUP]
11 [/SUP]And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. [SUP]12 [/SUP]All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

did it say they stopped the sin and became righteous?

No, It says they were washed by the blood. anyone not born again of god falls under the category of vs 6-10

In addition to this, I would like to say something before I continue. I am not advocating, and neither in my opinion is SeaBass, that a specific amount of works is required to enter Heaven. Say for example, 100 pounds of good works. What I am saying, is that good works are a testament to your faith. It shows your faith with good works. Faith is required to enter Heaven. I will now post scripture that agrees with what I am saying

.

Then like sea bass you would be wrong. Because it means you are trusting your own good deed, and your own self righteousness to save yourself. And not the work of God.

Face it, Yuo will NEVER do enough good deeds to make up for ONE SIN, let alone the millions you have commited.

Ephesians 2:8-9

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.

See, what it says above is that under Grace, only faith is needed to enter Heaven. It is also saying how a specific amount of Good works is required, just like I said above. Now lets read verses that say for you to do good works. Starting with Ephesians 2:10:

Ephesians 2:10

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Talk about a twist.

Vs 8 - 9 says that we are saved by grace apart from works. Lest anyone shoudl boast of saving himself.

Vs 10 says those who are saved WILL DO WORKS. Not that those works save him or will keep him saved, but that they will do the works they were created (through the new birth) to do.

Matthew 5:16

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.


Luke 10:30-37

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
[SUP]34 [/SUP]And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
[SUP]37 [/SUP]And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.


So now we can understand a few things:
1) Faith is required to enter Heaven. Under grace, it is all that is required.
2) A specific amount of good works are not required to enter Heaven
3) We are told to do good works.

Now let me post more scripture and I will comment on what it means. Just read it and you'll understand but I'm just making this a smooth process.

Well you got this right.

Faith, not works are required.
No amount of works are reuired (not just a specific amount, NONE Zero Zip Nada)

James 2:14-17

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.


James 2:18

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.


James 2:26

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


2 Timothy 3:17

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.


Now we can understand that Works are a testament to your faith. Or as it says in James 2:26, "...faith without works is dead also.". This is because we are to do good works. It has been instructed to us in other passages, but also because works represent our faith. Now you may disagree with me, I will show some passages that show how works can determine your faith in a negative way. The posts above were somewhat in a positive way, now to show the negative side:

You just totally twisted this and made it say something it does not say.

It says a belief which is just belief (dead faith) will not save anyone.

True faith will save someone, And as paul said in Eph 2:10 those who have true faith WILL DO GOOD WORKS. There is no MUST ABOUT IT.

Titus 1:16

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

How about titus 3: 5

Not by works of righteousness which we have done. HE (GOD) Saved us by the washing and renewal of the HS *see also 1 Cor 6: 11

So to recap what I have shown:

1. Faith is required to enter Heaven
2. A specific amount of works do not get you into Heaven, such as 100 pounds of works
3. Works represent your faith.
4. Works can be good or bad.

Works do not enter into the equation.

Yet people like sea bass says they do. THUS you have to tell us, How much work? Your actually contradicting what sea bass says, Are you agreeing with us and not him? Why are you slamming us for?

Now to continue on, I will show the punishments for doing bad works. I have already shown 1 example, but I will get more indepth:

Matthew 25:31-46

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP]When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
[SUP]33 [/SUP]And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
[SUP]35 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
[SUP]39 [/SUP]Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[SUP]42 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
[SUP]43 [/SUP]I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Matthew 7:21-23

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


[Note God know whats in your mind].Now specifically about Matthew 7:21-23 some have argued that they were not true Christians. To prove that wrong, I would like to quote Mark 16:16-18:


Mark 16:16-18

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
[SUP]18 [/SUP]They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


So there you go. I have shown how works are a representation of your faith. I have shown how faith is required to enter Heaven. I also have shown how works can be positive or negative.

I hope this explains to you how works are important. Remember, Grace is the ability for non-jews to enter Heaven as well as for people to repent for their sins. On that topic, I would like to close with this Bible verse:


1 John 3:8

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

lol. Alot of fluff here.

Did you have a point to make?

 

[Alligator]

Please provide us with the Scriptures that tell us that Jesus' once-for-all, for-all-time, Perfect Sacrifice was not enough to forgive all sins.

-JGIG

that's not even the issue, and you know it.