Salvation Not Possible Without Works
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I said once before you should not be looking at your heretic web sites, and use your bible...
You think Abraham was under no law?
Hebrews 11:8 (NKJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.
Notice Abraham "obeyed"? he was commanded by the Lord (law) and obeyed (the law) by doing as he was commanded.
Notice the righteous works Abraham did, he was told "to go" to do not righteous works would mean to "not go"
You think Abraham was under no law?
Hebrews 11:8 (NKJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.
Notice Abraham "obeyed"? he was commanded by the Lord (law) and obeyed (the law) by doing as he was commanded.
Notice the righteous works Abraham did, he was told "to go" to do not righteous works would mean to "not go"
Alligator, even in the midst of your sin you are the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ. Remember that, and also know that the Lord doesn't condemn you. He loves you. Even when you are in sin, He loves you. Imagine, even when we were sinners, He sent His only begotten Son to die on the cross for you. Your sin is washed by the blood of Christ, and He remembers your sins no more.
You may sin, but it doesn't make you a sinner. In the OT when someone sinned, they did so as a sinner. There was no righteous act a sinner could do to be a non-sinner. in the same way, we are the righteousness of God, and there is no sin we can do to make us unrighteous. It (the righteousness) wasn't based on us to begin with, but it was imputed to us by what Christ did.
1 John 3:5-9
King James Version (KJV)
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
I am curious of your interpretation of these verses? I will give you a hint. It has to do with our nature(hence being born-again. Second hint, old man being put off). I know that Christians still do things of the flesh, but remember that we are born-again. We have put off the sin nature(not we, but Christ has circumcised us) and are a new creation. Once spiritually dead and now made alive. You throw those verses at me as to insinuate this His Word is not in me, but you take my words and even these words(the verses) out of context. That or you misunderstand what is being said, Alligator.
My tip to you on the verses you quoted, to try to insinuate the Word isn't in me, is to study those verses and look into Gnosticism and how John had to deal with that. Those verses are basically refuting the position of Gnosticism.
To clarify, though a Christian may perform an act that is considered to be sinful, it by no means make the Christian a sinner. His sin nature has been put off, he is a new creation in Christ. To sin would go contrary to his new nature, but that doesn't mean he doesn't commit such acts.
Are you a saint or a sinner? The NT never calls you a sinner once you've accepted Christ. Any time the churches were addressed they were addressed as saints... I mean, look at the Corinthian church:
1 Corinthians 6:1-2
King James Version (KJV)
6 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
it goes on to say...
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
We are saints, the body of Christ is made out of saints. Once sinners, but now saints. To say that we are sinners saved by grace, is inaccurate. We were sinners saved by grace. We are now saints standing in that grace. Not that we have done something to be called a saint, but because of Christ. This isn't self-righteousness, because no one is a saint based upon their conduct. They are so called a saint because of Christ and the new-birth (which is because of Christ). One could say we are sinners saved by grace, but it neglects the fact of the old nature being put off and being a new creation (sin nature being circumcised by Christ, through baptism). We were crucified with Christ. To identify ourselves with who we were, is to deny who we have become in Christ.
I don't know if I worded this improperly(or not) and gave off the wrong vibe or some holiness doctrine that we are saints and not sinners, but this isn't being said as a self-righteous thing. We did nothing to be called saints, it is not our conduct and is nothing we can boast of. Just like you can't boast about your salvation, as it was all by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
I suppose its a mindset thing, but not necessarily. Its a truth thing. Our old nature(sin nature) has been put off.
“If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new” (2 Corinthians 5:17, emphasis mine).
If you're offended by this post, sorry saint.
It isn't meant to be offensive, but thought provoking.
You may sin, but it doesn't make you a sinner. In the OT when someone sinned, they did so as a sinner. There was no righteous act a sinner could do to be a non-sinner. in the same way, we are the righteousness of God, and there is no sin we can do to make us unrighteous. It (the righteousness) wasn't based on us to begin with, but it was imputed to us by what Christ did.
1 John 3:5-9
King James Version (KJV)
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
I am curious of your interpretation of these verses? I will give you a hint. It has to do with our nature(hence being born-again. Second hint, old man being put off). I know that Christians still do things of the flesh, but remember that we are born-again. We have put off the sin nature(not we, but Christ has circumcised us) and are a new creation. Once spiritually dead and now made alive. You throw those verses at me as to insinuate this His Word is not in me, but you take my words and even these words(the verses) out of context. That or you misunderstand what is being said, Alligator.
My tip to you on the verses you quoted, to try to insinuate the Word isn't in me, is to study those verses and look into Gnosticism and how John had to deal with that. Those verses are basically refuting the position of Gnosticism.
To clarify, though a Christian may perform an act that is considered to be sinful, it by no means make the Christian a sinner. His sin nature has been put off, he is a new creation in Christ. To sin would go contrary to his new nature, but that doesn't mean he doesn't commit such acts.
Are you a saint or a sinner? The NT never calls you a sinner once you've accepted Christ. Any time the churches were addressed they were addressed as saints... I mean, look at the Corinthian church:
1 Corinthians 6:1-2
King James Version (KJV)
6 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
it goes on to say...
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
We are saints, the body of Christ is made out of saints. Once sinners, but now saints. To say that we are sinners saved by grace, is inaccurate. We were sinners saved by grace. We are now saints standing in that grace. Not that we have done something to be called a saint, but because of Christ. This isn't self-righteousness, because no one is a saint based upon their conduct. They are so called a saint because of Christ and the new-birth (which is because of Christ). One could say we are sinners saved by grace, but it neglects the fact of the old nature being put off and being a new creation (sin nature being circumcised by Christ, through baptism). We were crucified with Christ. To identify ourselves with who we were, is to deny who we have become in Christ.
I don't know if I worded this improperly(or not) and gave off the wrong vibe or some holiness doctrine that we are saints and not sinners, but this isn't being said as a self-righteous thing. We did nothing to be called saints, it is not our conduct and is nothing we can boast of. Just like you can't boast about your salvation, as it was all by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
I suppose its a mindset thing, but not necessarily. Its a truth thing. Our old nature(sin nature) has been put off.
“If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new” (2 Corinthians 5:17, emphasis mine).
If you're offended by this post, sorry saint.
It isn't meant to be offensive, but thought provoking.Please explain the difference between works of merit which do not save,
and works of obedience which do save.
Please give examples of each.
Please address these seven Scriptures:
Eph 2:8-10 - "For it is by grace (not by obedience) you have been saved, through faith (not through obedience),
--and this (salvation) not from yourselves (not because of your obedience), it is the gift of God--
not by works, so that no man can boast. For we are God's workmanship (we are the clay in which
the potter alone forms the image)."
If my obedience is the reason God saves me, then I can boast that I did what my own brother
did not do, I obeyed, and he did not.
However, NT apostolic teaching is that salvation is a gift of God so that. . .I cannot boast,
for there is not one thing in all of it that I can boast about.
God gets all the glory, I get none based on my part, for I had no part.
Ro 1:17 - "In the gospel is revealed a righteousness (justification: legal positional right standing
before God, guiltlessness)
that is by faith, from first to last (man's obedience plays absolutely no part in it), just as it is written,
'The righteous will live by faith.' "
Ro 3:21-24 - "But now a righteousness apart from law (apart from works of obedience),
has been made known, to which the law and prophets testify.
This righteousness from God (not from our obedience)
comes through faith in Jesus Christ (not through obedience)
to all who believe (not perform works of obedience). . .
and are justified freely by his grace (not on the merit of any obedience)
through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."
Ro 5:17 - "For if, by the trespass of one man, death reigned through the one man, how much more
will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life
through the one man, Jesus Christ."
The above Scriptures show that the righteousness of or from God, which is justification,
is a free gift.
It is not the result of obedience to God's righteous commands.
This free gift of justification is simply the legal declaration of guiltlessness, it is not a change of character.
The change of character follows, in the obedience of faith, which sanctifies.
Ro 6:16-18 - "Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey them,
you are slaves to the one you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death,
or to obedience which leads to righteousness.
But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed
the form of teaching to which you were entrusted.
You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."
This (obedience) is not referring to justification/righteousness; i.e., legal declaration of acquittal
from guilt.
Nor is it a causal linkage of events from sin, to obedience, to righteousness. . .or whatever.
In the context of Ro 6, that grace does not give us the freedom to sin (Ro 6:1-2), Paul is simply
addressing the issue raised by some that justification by faith alone would remove all moral restraint.
He is showing that a Christian does not throw morality to the winds but, on the contrary, he exchanges
sin for righteousness as his new master.
The "obedience which leads to righteousness" is the obedience which results from faith and is the
process of sanctification.
Note that Paul uses "righteousness" in two ways:
a) justification - legal declaration of acquittal of guilt, of right standing before God,
because of forgiveness of sin, which saves (Lk 1:77) from God's wrath (Ro 5:9),
through faith in his atoning sacrifice (Ro 3:25) which paid the penalty for sin;
"righteousness" as used in Ro 1:17, 3:21-24, 5:17, 9:30-31, 11:5-6.
Justification/righteousness is not a change of character, only a positional legal standing
of guiltlessness before God.
b) sanctification - the process of holiness, by the power of the Holy Spirit, through the obedience
produced by faith, which is a change of character; "righteousness" as used in Ro 6:16-18.
Ro 9:30-31 - "What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have
obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not
attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works."
Ro 11:5-6 - At the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is
no longer by works; if it were, grace (mercy) would no longer be grace.
Then in addition to "righteousness," there is another NT revelation that has direct bearing
on this issue, and it is the meaning of the "natural man" and the "spiritual man."
Since the fall of Adam, there have been only two groups of people in God's world.
a) the born again (Jn 3:3) into eternal life by the Holy Spirit through faith (the regenerate, or spiritual man),
b) and those who are not born again into eternal life (the unregenerate, or natural man).
Apostolic teaching in Ro 8:7-8 reveals that the unregenerate/natural man's mind is
hostile to God (rebellious),
does not submit to God's law (insubordinate), and
does not, because it cannot, please God (spiritually powerless).
That is the position of everyone, without exception, before they are born again (Jn 3:3)
by the power of the Holy Spirit through faith.
No matter how religious one is, no matter how many works of righteousness one does,
if one is not born again, he cannot even see the kingdom of God (Jn 3:3), much less enter it (Jn 3:5).
The Pharisees were very religious and did many works of righteousness.
And yet they were not righteous.
So according to apostolic teaching, there is no obedience pleasing to God by those who are not born again,
there is no obedience which is the reason God saves anyone.
All are saved out of disobedience into obedience.
"Salvation Not Possible Without Works" contradicts the apostolic teaching presented above.
Be sure you understand that those who are saved will practice Biblical obedience,
but their obedience is the result of their salvation, it is not the cause of their salvation.
Faith-->Salvation-->Biblical Obedience
Please do not bother us with your false gospel of salvation by works
which Paul anathematizes (Gal 1:8-9), and which does not save,
until you have reconciled your false understanding to the NT gospel in the above Scritures.
and works of obedience which do save.
Please give examples of each.
Please address these seven Scriptures:
Eph 2:8-10 - "For it is by grace (not by obedience) you have been saved, through faith (not through obedience),
--and this (salvation) not from yourselves (not because of your obedience), it is the gift of God--
not by works, so that no man can boast. For we are God's workmanship (we are the clay in which
the potter alone forms the image)."
If my obedience is the reason God saves me, then I can boast that I did what my own brother
did not do, I obeyed, and he did not.
However, NT apostolic teaching is that salvation is a gift of God so that. . .I cannot boast,
for there is not one thing in all of it that I can boast about.
God gets all the glory, I get none based on my part, for I had no part.
Ro 1:17 - "In the gospel is revealed a righteousness (justification: legal positional right standing
before God, guiltlessness)
that is by faith, from first to last (man's obedience plays absolutely no part in it), just as it is written,
'The righteous will live by faith.' "
Ro 3:21-24 - "But now a righteousness apart from law (apart from works of obedience),
has been made known, to which the law and prophets testify.
This righteousness from God (not from our obedience)
comes through faith in Jesus Christ (not through obedience)
to all who believe (not perform works of obedience). . .
and are justified freely by his grace (not on the merit of any obedience)
through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."
Ro 5:17 - "For if, by the trespass of one man, death reigned through the one man, how much more
will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life
through the one man, Jesus Christ."
The above Scriptures show that the righteousness of or from God, which is justification,
is a free gift.
It is not the result of obedience to God's righteous commands.
This free gift of justification is simply the legal declaration of guiltlessness, it is not a change of character.
The change of character follows, in the obedience of faith, which sanctifies.
Ro 6:16-18 - "Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey them,
you are slaves to the one you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death,
or to obedience which leads to righteousness.
But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed
the form of teaching to which you were entrusted.
You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."
This (obedience) is not referring to justification/righteousness; i.e., legal declaration of acquittal
from guilt.
Nor is it a causal linkage of events from sin, to obedience, to righteousness. . .or whatever.
In the context of Ro 6, that grace does not give us the freedom to sin (Ro 6:1-2), Paul is simply
addressing the issue raised by some that justification by faith alone would remove all moral restraint.
He is showing that a Christian does not throw morality to the winds but, on the contrary, he exchanges
sin for righteousness as his new master.
The "obedience which leads to righteousness" is the obedience which results from faith and is the
process of sanctification.
Note that Paul uses "righteousness" in two ways:
a) justification - legal declaration of acquittal of guilt, of right standing before God,
because of forgiveness of sin, which saves (Lk 1:77) from God's wrath (Ro 5:9),
through faith in his atoning sacrifice (Ro 3:25) which paid the penalty for sin;
"righteousness" as used in Ro 1:17, 3:21-24, 5:17, 9:30-31, 11:5-6.
Justification/righteousness is not a change of character, only a positional legal standing
of guiltlessness before God.
b) sanctification - the process of holiness, by the power of the Holy Spirit, through the obedience
produced by faith, which is a change of character; "righteousness" as used in Ro 6:16-18.
Ro 9:30-31 - "What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have
obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not
attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works."
Ro 11:5-6 - At the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is
no longer by works; if it were, grace (mercy) would no longer be grace.
Then in addition to "righteousness," there is another NT revelation that has direct bearing
on this issue, and it is the meaning of the "natural man" and the "spiritual man."
Since the fall of Adam, there have been only two groups of people in God's world.
a) the born again (Jn 3:3) into eternal life by the Holy Spirit through faith (the regenerate, or spiritual man),
b) and those who are not born again into eternal life (the unregenerate, or natural man).
Apostolic teaching in Ro 8:7-8 reveals that the unregenerate/natural man's mind is
hostile to God (rebellious),
does not submit to God's law (insubordinate), and
does not, because it cannot, please God (spiritually powerless).
That is the position of everyone, without exception, before they are born again (Jn 3:3)
by the power of the Holy Spirit through faith.
No matter how religious one is, no matter how many works of righteousness one does,
if one is not born again, he cannot even see the kingdom of God (Jn 3:3), much less enter it (Jn 3:5).
The Pharisees were very religious and did many works of righteousness.
And yet they were not righteous.
So according to apostolic teaching, there is no obedience pleasing to God by those who are not born again,
there is no obedience which is the reason God saves anyone.
All are saved out of disobedience into obedience.
"Salvation Not Possible Without Works" contradicts the apostolic teaching presented above.
Be sure you understand that those who are saved will practice Biblical obedience,
but their obedience is the result of their salvation, it is not the cause of their salvation.
Faith-->Salvation-->Biblical Obedience
Please do not bother us with your false gospel of salvation by works
which Paul anathematizes (Gal 1:8-9), and which does not save,
until you have reconciled your false understanding to the NT gospel in the above Scritures.
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E
Your right.
They are not wrong. Yet they say two different things.
James states what I have said all along. A dead faith will not produce works. A dead faith will NOT SAVE.
Paul is talking to the legalists (like you) James is talking to the licententious who think they can just say they believe and live like they want and it does not matter.
Two different audiences, Two different gospel. They agree,,
ps. I have read my bible.
It does not claim what you says it claims. Unless I twist half of it,
E
One side is saying faith only. For the most part, the other side is saying active faith only.
I agree with both. Faith only saves. But, a dead faith is dead indeed. It is said, 'let us watch over each other so that that heart of stubbornness will not be found in us'. Truly, hearkening to our Master will lead us into His Rest.
......likewise my Brother
I agree with both. Faith only saves. But, a dead faith is dead indeed. It is said, 'let us watch over each other so that that heart of stubbornness will not be found in us'. Truly, hearkening to our Master will lead us into His Rest.
......likewise my Brother
The other side is claiming a work must be done BEFORE salvation is given. Or works must be continued or salvation will be lost.
That is not an active faith. That is a dead faith, Because it is faith in SELF to continue the work. and not In God to continue to save.
So your saying whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, because he is born of god? one of those once saved always saved...
What John is saying is a christian cannot commit sin as long as the seed (word of God) remaineth in him.
This means as long as one is in the word, sin is forbidden, not impossible...
Liken it to this, if you are driving down the road and come to a red light, and the "word"s on a sign say "no turn on red", it means turning of red is forbidden, not that it is impossible.
See what the same author says here in ( 1 John 2:1 ) :
1 John 2:1 (NKJV)
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
What John is saying is a christian cannot commit sin as long as the seed (word of God) remaineth in him.
This means as long as one is in the word, sin is forbidden, not impossible...
Liken it to this, if you are driving down the road and come to a red light, and the "word"s on a sign say "no turn on red", it means turning of red is forbidden, not that it is impossible.
See what the same author says here in ( 1 John 2:1 ) :
1 John 2:1 (NKJV)
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
That isn't what I'm saying. Did you stop reading right after I quoted 1 John 3:5-9? lol
I like what you quoted of 1 John 2:1. You'll notice that when we sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous who will point to what He has done on our behalf. We are the righteousness of God, in Christ. He is our eternal High Priest in the order of Melchizedek, completely able to save us, as he lives to always intercede for us.
I like what you quoted of 1 John 2:1. You'll notice that when we sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous who will point to what He has done on our behalf. We are the righteousness of God, in Christ. He is our eternal High Priest in the order of Melchizedek, completely able to save us, as he lives to always intercede for us.
Seeing how the word of God is spiritual in origin and is unknowable by a lost man who has no ability to (discern) the word of God it seems quite evident that before a man can Keep the Commandments of God he must have a born again spirit of God (salvation) before he can KNOW the commandments of God, much less keep them....
I will tell you what and this is for sure....In almost 40 years of hearing/studying/arguing/discussing/debating the truth I have never in my life seen as many scriptures that you and your cousin Mr. Twisty twist out of context to try and prove your heretical stance on works for salvation! Serious!
The majority of the N.T. is written unto saved, scripturally immersed CHURCH MEMBERS....and you guys constantly twist scriptures that have been given unto saved people out of context to try and win lost people by their own works.....called a gospel of a different kind--->has no power to save---->double cursed to hell
Good luck with the disciples you encompass land and sea to make...too bad they will be two fold the children of hell!
I will tell you what and this is for sure....In almost 40 years of hearing/studying/arguing/discussing/debating the truth I have never in my life seen as many scriptures that you and your cousin Mr. Twisty twist out of context to try and prove your heretical stance on works for salvation! Serious!
The majority of the N.T. is written unto saved, scripturally immersed CHURCH MEMBERS....and you guys constantly twist scriptures that have been given unto saved people out of context to try and win lost people by their own works.....called a gospel of a different kind--->has no power to save---->double cursed to hell
Good luck with the disciples you encompass land and sea to make...too bad they will be two fold the children of hell!
James 2:24 (NKJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
faith is a work, you cannot have faith without the works of James :
1 Thessalonians 1:3 (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father,
Here Paul and James refer to the same works,
You cannot seem to grasp the difference in the "works of the Mosaic Law Paul spoke of in Eph 2:9" and the required "righteous works he and James spoke of"
[SUP]24 [/SUP]You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
faith is a work, you cannot have faith without the works of James :
1 Thessalonians 1:3 (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father,
Here Paul and James refer to the same works,
You cannot seem to grasp the difference in the "works of the Mosaic Law Paul spoke of in Eph 2:9" and the required "righteous works he and James spoke of"
A
Alligator, even in the midst of your sin you are the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ. Remember that, and also know that the Lord doesn't condemn you. He loves you. Even when you are in sin, He loves you. Imagine, even when we were sinners, He sent His only begotten Son to die on the cross for you. Your sin is washed by the blood of Christ, and He remembers your sins no more.
You may sin, but it doesn't make you a sinner. In the OT when someone sinned, they did so as a sinner. There was no righteous act a sinner could do to be a non-sinner. in the same way, we are the righteousness of God, and there is no sin we can do to make us unrighteous. It (the righteousness) wasn't based on us to begin with, but it was imputed to us by what Christ did.
1 John 3:5-9
King James Version (KJV)
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
I am curious of your interpretation of these verses? I will give you a hint. It has to do with our nature(hence being born-again. Second hint, old man being put off). I know that Christians still do things of the flesh, but remember that we are born-again. We have put off the sin nature(not we, but Christ has circumcised us) and are a new creation. Once spiritually dead and now made alive. You throw those verses at me as to insinuate this His Word is not in me, but you take my words and even these words(the verses) out of context. That or you misunderstand what is being said, Alligator.
My tip to you on the verses you quoted, to try to insinuate the Word isn't in me, is to study those verses and look into Gnosticism and how John had to deal with that. Those verses are basically refuting the position of Gnosticism.
To clarify, though a Christian may perform an act that is considered to be sinful, it by no means make the Christian a sinner. His sin nature has been put off, he is a new creation in Christ. To sin would go contrary to his new nature, but that doesn't mean he doesn't commit such acts.
Are you a saint or a sinner? The NT never calls you a sinner once you've accepted Christ. Any time the churches were addressed they were addressed as saints... I mean, look at the Corinthian church:
1 Corinthians 6:1-2
King James Version (KJV)
6 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
it goes on to say...
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
We are saints, the body of Christ is made out of saints. Once sinners, but now saints. To say that we are sinners saved by grace, is inaccurate. We were sinners saved by grace. We are now saints standing in that grace. Not that we have done something to be called a saint, but because of Christ. This isn't self-righteousness, because no one is a saint based upon their conduct. They are so called a saint because of Christ and the new-birth (which is because of Christ). One could say we are sinners saved by grace, but it neglects the fact of the old nature being put off and being a new creation (sin nature being circumcised by Christ, through baptism). We were crucified with Christ. To identify ourselves with who we were, is to deny who we have become in Christ.
I don't know if I worded this improperly(or not) and gave off the wrong vibe or some holiness doctrine that we are saints and not sinners, but this isn't being said as a self-righteous thing. We did nothing to be called saints, it is not our conduct and is nothing we can boast of. Just like you can't boast about your salvation, as it was all by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
I suppose its a mindset thing, but not necessarily. Its a truth thing. Our old nature(sin nature) has been put off.
“If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new” (2 Corinthians 5:17, emphasis mine).
If you're offended by this post, sorry saint. It isn't meant to be offensive, but thought provoking.
You may sin, but it doesn't make you a sinner. In the OT when someone sinned, they did so as a sinner. There was no righteous act a sinner could do to be a non-sinner. in the same way, we are the righteousness of God, and there is no sin we can do to make us unrighteous. It (the righteousness) wasn't based on us to begin with, but it was imputed to us by what Christ did.
1 John 3:5-9
King James Version (KJV)
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
I am curious of your interpretation of these verses? I will give you a hint. It has to do with our nature(hence being born-again. Second hint, old man being put off). I know that Christians still do things of the flesh, but remember that we are born-again. We have put off the sin nature(not we, but Christ has circumcised us) and are a new creation. Once spiritually dead and now made alive. You throw those verses at me as to insinuate this His Word is not in me, but you take my words and even these words(the verses) out of context. That or you misunderstand what is being said, Alligator.
My tip to you on the verses you quoted, to try to insinuate the Word isn't in me, is to study those verses and look into Gnosticism and how John had to deal with that. Those verses are basically refuting the position of Gnosticism.
To clarify, though a Christian may perform an act that is considered to be sinful, it by no means make the Christian a sinner. His sin nature has been put off, he is a new creation in Christ. To sin would go contrary to his new nature, but that doesn't mean he doesn't commit such acts.
Are you a saint or a sinner? The NT never calls you a sinner once you've accepted Christ. Any time the churches were addressed they were addressed as saints... I mean, look at the Corinthian church:
1 Corinthians 6:1-2
King James Version (KJV)
6 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
it goes on to say...
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
We are saints, the body of Christ is made out of saints. Once sinners, but now saints. To say that we are sinners saved by grace, is inaccurate. We were sinners saved by grace. We are now saints standing in that grace. Not that we have done something to be called a saint, but because of Christ. This isn't self-righteousness, because no one is a saint based upon their conduct. They are so called a saint because of Christ and the new-birth (which is because of Christ). One could say we are sinners saved by grace, but it neglects the fact of the old nature being put off and being a new creation (sin nature being circumcised by Christ, through baptism). We were crucified with Christ. To identify ourselves with who we were, is to deny who we have become in Christ.
I don't know if I worded this improperly(or not) and gave off the wrong vibe or some holiness doctrine that we are saints and not sinners, but this isn't being said as a self-righteous thing. We did nothing to be called saints, it is not our conduct and is nothing we can boast of. Just like you can't boast about your salvation, as it was all by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
I suppose its a mindset thing, but not necessarily. Its a truth thing. Our old nature(sin nature) has been put off.
“If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new” (2 Corinthians 5:17, emphasis mine).
If you're offended by this post, sorry saint.
It isn't meant to be offensive, but thought provoking.
This is why there is no contradiction in I John 3:7-9 and I John 1:7-9 that I referred to.