AM I JEW OR A GENTILE IF I KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS ?

[Zinzerio]

Originally Posted by RedTent

We strongly disagree about the word "fulfilled". It is a beautiful word that includes all that Christ is to us. It is living and sustaining, it has nothing to do with destroying or stopping anything.
more interesting language. don't like it that Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the Law satisfying God and abolishing it?
Galatians 3

King James Version (KJV)


3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?.............


[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

.....So the Idea that the law is no longer needed came from Paul.

See the word of Jesus about the Jews and it leaders.......

Mathew 23
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

[SUP]33 [/SUP]Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

[SUP]34 [/SUP]Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

[SUP]35 [/SUP]That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

[SUP]36 [/SUP]Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

[SUP]37 [/SUP]O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

[SUP]38 [/SUP]Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

(Your house: = .... your temple...your law?)

I have one thing to say to you and one thing only and thats this
John 14:15
Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;…

 

[Zinzerio]

i hope ivanco you dont see me as being cleaver i am only telling you for your own good and as christian duty

 

[ivanc0]

I have one thing to say to you and one thing only and thats this
John 14:15
Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;…

So..you saying that Paul is saying a lie?

Jesus said Keep my commandments...... then..... I will fulfill the law!.....Paul confirmed the law was fulfilled!
(Jesus said Keep my commandments) His commandments are far superior than the law.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He had to get his message across Adam had been deceived and so had eve.

do you think if the lord had said here is a cup of fruit juice don't worry about just dont be decieved again do you think adam and eve would of listened to the lord hmm ,, ? I don't think so he told adam you will die, ? put your self in this situation for i minute give it some thought. would you want to be deceived again ? absolutely not.

No.

But something happened when adam sinned.

He fell. He could not understand the things of God. The relationship had to be restored.

Also. Eve was decieved, Adam knew what he was doing,

 

[RedTent]

Originally Posted by RedTent

We strongly disagree about the word "fulfilled". It is a beautiful word that includes all that Christ is to us. It is living and sustaining, it has nothing to do with destroying or stopping anything.
more interesting language. don't like it that Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the Law satisfying God and abolishing it?
Galatians 3

King James Version (KJV)


3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?.............


[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

.....So the Idea that the law is no longer needed came from Paul.

See the word of Jesus about the Jews and it leaders.......

Mathew 23
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

[SUP]33 [/SUP]Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

[SUP]34 [/SUP]Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

[SUP]35 [/SUP]That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

[SUP]36 [/SUP]Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

[SUP]37 [/SUP]O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

[SUP]38 [/SUP]Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

(Your house: = .... your temple...your law?)

So you think that because you come to Christ, not because of the schoolmaster of the law, or of the rituals that were to lead you to spiritual truth but because of Christ leading you, that it means that you can destroy the law? THAT is foolish. God says the law is holy, you say it is to be destroyed. Who do you think is right?

 

[ivanc0]

i hope ivanco you dont see me as being cleaver i am only telling you for your own good and as christian duty

I respect your opinion, every one has right to have one..... but the exchange of ideas is to help us to find coherence with the scriptures.
unfortunately it seems there is a good number of People that can not free themselves from the Judaizers Ideas.

 

[Zinzerio]

No.

But something happened when adam sinned.

He fell. He could not understand the things of God. The relationship had to be restored.

Also. Eve was decieved, Adam knew what he was doing,

no to what

 

[ivanc0]

So you think that because you come to Christ, not because of the schoolmaster of the law, or of the rituals that were to lead you to spiritual truth but because of Christ leading you, that it means that you can destroy the law? THAT is foolish. God says the law is holy, you say it is to be destroyed. Who do you think is right?

None of us could destroy the law, only the one to has given it.
and that is exactly way Jesus did..... He fulfilled the LAW!.

The New testament is full of hundreds of scriptures that say the law does not apply to gentiles.
but did apply to people who chooses to circumcise in the flesh......

Paul says to this people FOOLISH.....(just read the scripture in the quote again)

Could you explain why you do not accept Paul words?

 

[RedTent]

I respect your opinion, every one has right to have one..... but the exchange of ideas is to help us to find coherence with the scriptures.
unfortunately it seems there is a good number of People that can not free themselves from the Judaizers Ideas.

God cannot free Himself from the ideas that He has!! Many people call those ideas "Judaizers". I, for one, listen to God. I hear that God says we do not need the rituals He gave to lead us to spiritual truths, we can use the Holy Spirit and the word apart from them and in scripture that is called Judaizing. I listen. God did NOT say that all His instructions are Judaizing. I listen. If I am called a judaizer and told it is wrong to listen, so be it. God comes before you, Ivan.

 

[ivanc0]

No.

But something happened when adam sinned.

He fell. He could not understand the things of God. The relationship had to be restored.

Also. Eve was decieved, Adam knew what he was doing,

Originally Posted by Zinzerio

He had to get his message across Adam had been deceived and so had eve.

do you think if the lord had said here is a cup of fruit juice don't worry about just dont be decieved again do you think adam and eve would of listened to the lord hmm ,, ? I don't think so he told adam you will die, ? put your self in this situation for i minute give it some thought. would you want to be deceived again ? absolutely not.





No.

But something happened when adam sinned.

He fell. He could not understand the things of God. The relationship had to be restored.

Also. Eve was decieved, Adam knew what he was doing,
​

.......................
"It was not really a sin...... was the plan of God" He knew that sooner or later man will disobey.

Genesis 3
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil............


So men can now Grow and fulfill the plan God have for him!

 

[RedTent]

None of us could destroy the law, only the one to has given it.
and that is exactly way Jesus did..... He fulfilled the LAW!.

The New testament is full of hundreds of scriptures that say the law does not apply to gentiles.
but did apply to people who chooses to circumcise in the flesh......

Paul says to this people FOOLISH.....(just read the scripture in the quote again)

Could you explain why you do not accept Paul words?

Because there is nothing in scripture that says that God is only for a small group of the people God created. Nothing. Even in writings that God knew that, for a time would be read only by a small group of people, God told those people it was for everyone who wanted to read it, scripture called it "the stranger among you". So, rather than saying scripture was only for a few, scripture makes a point over and over that it is for everyone.

 

[ivanc0]

God cannot free Himself from the ideas that He has!! Many people call those ideas "Judaizers". I, for one, listen to God. I hear that God says we do not need the rituals He gave to lead us to spiritual truths, we can use the Holy Spirit and the word apart from them and in scripture that is called Judaizing. I listen. God did NOT say that all His instructions are Judaizing. I listen. If I am called a judaizer and told it is wrong to listen, so be it. God comes before you, Ivan.

Are you trying to say that God is Judaizer, and Paul fougth against God?...... Are you Serioussss!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

First, I would like to commend you on speaking clearer. I only object to you telling me you know what I think. You know what I state, and that you can repeat except you may not add to it nor say what I think.

I did not know I did this. If I did it was not on purpose. forgive me

I disagree that the purpose of the law can to be summed up in a few sentences.

I only Go by what paul said. I would not try to add or subtract what paul said.

Purpose of the Law

[SUP]19 [/SUP]What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

We disagree about bringing in judging the "legalistic and licentious crowd" as a way to judge law. Obeying law legalistically is a separate subject, it has nothing to do with judging law itself.

You did not understand me, I was not talking about how one judges the law. I was talking about how one judges sin. Huge difference.

We strongly disagree about the word "fulfilled". It is a beautiful word that includes all that Christ is to us. It is living and sustaining, it has nothing to do with destroying or stopping anything.

Again, Where do you get destroy or stopping? I never said this. so am not sure what your talking about

We need to see how Christ used the Pharisees to explain law to us, but it is not an explanation of the beauty of love in the law, or of the path to abundant living that we can gain from learning scripture about it. Your explanations of law always includes judgments of people using it wrong as an explanation of the law itself, I don't agree with that as teaching of what law is for or of a way to judge law itself. It is teaching how not to use the law.

How can you use it?

It condemns, It does not show us how to live. Jesus admitted this in matt 5. The law does not say if you look at a woman with lust it is sin, It says if you commit adultry you commit sin. Thats why it can never make us righteous. It can never show us how to not sin. Only give us a small taste of what it looks like

And like I said, It is a covenant, either the whole covenant is obeyed, or the covenant is null and void. that goes with any covenant,

I don't agree with the teaching about how we are dead in our sins without Christ as the curse of the law is, as teaching about the law itself. Even breaking a small part of law results in death, but Christ results in life. That truth is not an explanation of law, as your teaching always includes. Christ abolished that curse, but Christ did not abolish all guideposts we have been given because Christ gave us life.

It appears here you are saying the same thing I am. except one thing.

How we NOT dead to Christ in sin? You lost me here

You have no right to call me utterly hopeless, I object.

When did I say this??

I disagree that the definition of bondage is all of the law. I disagree that scripture says that any guidelines for how to live in love is bondage.

Can you tell me what the law of Sin and Death is? (see romans 8)

We finally have one agreement. "There is no forgiveness in the law". Forgiveness is not one of the purposes of law.

Well actually yes it was.

As a schoolmaster. it was made to lead us to what can give us forgiveness. (Christ.)

I do have one judgment of your teachings. These teachings damage the precious church of the Lord. The word, as scripture is and Christ is should be treated as holy.

I disagree.

Teaching law is damaging the church of God. And has been since people started taking the law in the pupose which it was not intended.

I do not say this because It is just my opinion. I say it because I have witnessed it. Not only in my first 20 years as a CHristian and the church I was going to. But at work, At my wifes work. And the many places I have been where I speak with Christians who love to preach law.

 

[ivanc0]

Because there is nothing in scripture that says that God is only for a small group of the people God created. Nothing. Even in writings that God knew that, for a time would be read only by a small group of people, God told those people it was for everyone who wanted to read it, scripture called it "the stranger among you". So, rather than saying scripture was only for a few, scripture makes a point over and over that it is for everyone.

Do you Understand what you have just Said:
"That you disagree with Paul....."! What Paul Said is not Out of context, or a bad translation...... He said, before christ we have the law, and the law was a preparation to Christ, but after Jesus has fulfilled his mission we do not need the law anymore.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I Have to thank you i have wondered this about the lord.
I often think why the lord had wrote his law on our hearts.
Iuse to think why did he not do that to the Jews ? and now it has hit me thanks to you he wanted the people to write and bind his laws to there own hearts and he did this by making baby lambs a sacrafice.
i use to think stuff like its not fair why have we got this happen later on in life when the Jews did not and now i know why.
The lord was broken hearted ABOUT HIS BABY LAMBS BEING crucified over and over again

Imagine how he felt in the beginning.

And imagine the horror on Adam and Eves face When God did this.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Also for Adam and his wife the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So..you saying that Paul is saying a lie?

Jesus said Keep my commandments...... then..... I will fulfill the law!.....Paul confirmed the law was fulfilled!
(Jesus said Keep my commandments) His commandments are far superior than the law.

amen! Not sure why when people see the word commandment they always go to the law.

this is like saying when you see the word baptize, you always asume water. we should never assume anything

 

[ivanc0]

amen! Not sure why when people see the word commandment they always go to the law.

this is like saying when you see the word baptize, you always asume water. we should never assume anything

The answer to your question is simple: "The preachers needs the LAW"...... WHY?..... to ask for "TITHING!"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So you think that because you come to Christ, not because of the schoolmaster of the law, or of the rituals that were to lead you to spiritual truth but because of Christ leading you, that it means that you can destroy the law? THAT is foolish. God says the law is holy, you say it is to be destroyed. Who do you think is right?

sis. the law is ALL of the law. Not just the rituals.

the rituals were not even part of the original covenant made.

The part of the law which condemns is the part engraved in stone. Paul makes this clear.

All the rituals just showed what Christ would do to redeem us from the curse of not following the part of the law written in stone.

2 Corinthians 3:7 [ Glory of the New Covenant ] But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,

The minister of death, Which caused death was the commandments.

 

[phil112]

The law of the spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Let me try to give a similitude of law and liberty, (or love for God).
Joe asks Bill if he wants to help him steal a car from Jim. Bill says, "I can't do that. It is against the law. I'll get in trouble."
That is obedience to the law in practice and motive. Don't do it 'cause you'll get in trouble.

Joe asks Bill if he wants to help him steal a car from Jim. Bill says, "Why would I want to do that? I love Jim."
That is love in practice and motive.

Do you judaizers simply not see, that if you love your neighbor the law will never have application in your lives?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

no to what

No to adam being given another cup and not wanting to be decieved again, (he was not decieved in the first place.)

He was dead to God. He could not do good even if he wanted to until he was restored by his faith in God which would have saved him.