Laws - do they exist or not?

[DavidLOVESsnow]

So I have my own honest opinion on this, but I have little time in my life so Im not going to get involved in a huge debate on CC again. However, I would like to know a concrete answer because I can see the goods and bad in each position [even in my own position]. I am willing to be proven wrong, or else it would be useless to even post this in the first place. However, this is my understanding so far, of the pros and cons of each side:

Laws Exist, we must follow them

Pros:

• Correlates [is in parallel] with the entire OT.
• It wouldn't make sense why God would have a group of people have it incredibly hard in OT, then easy in NT, especially when you read Romans 8:29-30 [he knows what everyone's reaction or decision in a situation will be, therefore God would know who would pass or fail under OT laws].
• Jesus claimed to come and fulfill the law, not to destroy. Therefore, the law would still exist.

Cons:

• Some scriptures in the NT claim that the laws have been fulfilled.
• Some scriptures in the NT talk about the old covenant being thrown out so to speak.
• Galatians.

Laws do not exist

Pros:

• I forget the verse but it basically says something about "if the laws exist, then the sacrifice on the cross was useless". I am going off of memory here, so I may be wrong. It's in the NT obviouslly, anytime between Acts to Revelation [but I can guarantee it is not in Revelation].
• It is all based on faith. Laws are not required. You will do good because of your faith. [Ephesians 2:8-9]

Cons:

• It wouldn't make sense why God would have a group of people have it incredibly hard in OT, then easy in NT, especially when you read Romans 8:29-30 [he knows what everyone's reaction or decision in a situation will be, therefore God would know who would pass or fail under OT laws].
• Why would James 2: 14-18 exist?
• Why would a murderer go to hell [1 Corinthians 6:9-10] if he believed in God? In relation to Titus 1:16, you can profess you know God but by works you shall be judged. So therefore, isn't not murdering someone following the law?
• The law was written by God.
• The book of life.

Laws Exist, but they are written in our hearts

Pros:

• Correlates [is in parallel] with the entire OT. [this is because the laws still exist, even if they are instituted differently]
• Romans 2:15

Cons:

• Then why wouldn't everyone go to Heaven? If the law is written in our hearts, God could have it written in everyones hearts. Therefore, Romans 8:29-30 would make no sense, and the fact that everyone doesn't enter Heaven wouldn't make any sense.

Disclaimer: I have less arguments for Laws being written in our hearts because I have only recently heard of this argument today. I just put in a few points there to put my current pros and cons for that argument.

Conclusion: Debate away. There will be several options in the poll. Keep in mind, a poll is never 100% accurate. You could have a poll where 98/100 people say 1+2=4 but only 2 saying 1+2=3. Regardless, it still shows what the majority's opinion is on this issue, and therefore gives a good context as to what may possibly be the right answer. This is in addition to the arguments that will be presented by everyone. So I will be reading, and will give my unbias, honest opinion in the matter as the debates go on. Have fun.

- David

 

[Grandpa]

The law exists.

It is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. So that we would call on His Name and Forever have Faith in Him.

But after that faith comes we are no longer under the law. We are under Him and His Grace.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

The law exists.

It is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. So that we would call on His Name and Forever have Faith in Him.

But after that faith comes we are no longer under the law. We are under Him and His Grace.

Can you please be a bit more specific?

From my understanding, you say we are first under the law. Then once we find Jesus Christ, we are no longer under the law. It appears you take 2 perspectives at the same time. Can you please reiterate your point? [just be a bit more specific. I didn't really understand what you were saying].

 

[KohenMatt]

They do exist.
We don't HAVE to follow them for anything.
We SHOULD follow them because they're from God and there's blessing in them.
If you don't, no biggie.
If you do, you will be blessed.

 

[Richie_2uk]

Laws exist, but they lack being kept.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

They do exist.
We don't HAVE to follow them for anything.
We SHOULD follow them because they're from God and there's blessing in them.
If you don't, no biggie.
If you do, you will be blessed.

So you're saying, let me see if I get this right:

They still exist, but its not necessary to follow them.

So my question is, then why exist if there is no necessity to follow them? or for example, on the opposite position, in the NT it talks about those who follow the law are under the curse of the law. So, with that logic, which is which? :/ see the confusion?

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

Laws exist, but they lack being kept.

Lol, got to love a little humor.

 

[KohenMatt]

So you're saying, let me see if I get this right:

They still exist, but its not necessary to follow them.

So my question is, then why exist if there is no necessity to follow them? or for example, on the opposite position, in the NT it talks about those who follow the law are under the curse of the law. So, with that logic, which is which? :/ see the confusion?

It's about the law's relationship to salvation.
The law can't bring salvation. If you think it can, you're under the law, and you're cursed.
If you're saved by grace, you're not under the law, but you can still follow the principles and teachings of them, through the filter of merciful salvation.
But obedience to the law, or the lack thereof, doesn't affect salvation.

 

[JesusLives]

Sin is transgression of the law, bible tells us Thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee. Jesus said that He would write His law on our hearts. The song we sing so often says Trust and Obey for there's no other way to be happy in Jesus but to Trust and Obey. We can only do this with the Holy Spirit living in us to will and to do God's pleasure. Jesus also says if you Love Me Keep My Commandments. But He makes it easy for us because His Law is written on our hearts. When He died on the cross He did for us what we could not do for ourselves.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

It's about the law's relationship to salvation.
The law can't bring salvation. If you think it can, you're under the law, and you're cursed.
If you're saved by grace, you're not under the law, but you can still follow the principles and teachings of them, through the filter of merciful salvation.
But obedience to the law, or the lack thereof, doesn't affect salvation.

You make a good point, do you mind me requesting scripture to prove your point? Just to make it factual and evidence based.

On a side note, can you elaborate on your position of grace? For example, my understanding of grace is that it does the following:
- allows non-jews to enter Heaven
- allows people to repent for their sins

Do you have another understanding? If so, pelase elaborate. On a side note, please try to use Bible verses to prove your perspective, as well to everyone else posting. It is greatly appreciated that people are participating, but I would appreciate bible verses to prove your points . Thank you again though for commenting.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

Sin is transgression of the law, bible tells us Thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee. Jesus said that He would write His law on our hearts. The song we sing so often says Trust and Obey for there's no other way to be happy in Jesus but to Trust and Obey. We can only do this with the Holy Spirit living in us to will and to do God's pleasure. Jesus also says if you Love Me Keep My Commandments. But He makes it easy for us because His Law is written on our hearts. When He died on the cross He did for us what we could not do for ourselves.

Interesting perpsective. I just have a question about that which I asked above. When is it written on our hearts? Who qualifies to get it written on their hearts? Can it be un-written from your heart?

Also, I posted it earlier, but I'll just readress it. Please use Bible quotes as much as possible to prove your point please but thank you for your input.

 

[Grandpa]

Can you please be a bit more specific?

From my understanding, you say we are first under the law. Then once we find Jesus Christ, we are no longer under the law. It appears you take 2 perspectives at the same time. Can you please reiterate your point? [just be a bit more specific. I didn't really understand what you were saying].

We are first under the law. We must attempt to keep it perfectly before God.

When we come to the end of ourselves and find out we can't keep the law perfectly before God, we cry out to Him for His Help and Mercy.

He gives us these things exceedingly abundantly more than we can think or ask. So much so that our work at the law is no longer required. Only our Faith in the Work that He has done and does in us.

The law never goes away. It is there to bring people to Christ. Just after it brings us to Christ it has fulfilled its purpose and shows us that it is the Holy Spirit that keeps the law and not flesh and carnal will.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Interesting perpsective. I just have a question about that which I asked above. When is it written on our hearts? Who qualifies to get it written on their hearts? Can it be un-written from your heart?

Also, I posted it earlier, but I'll just readress it. Please use Bible quotes as much as possible to prove your point please but thank you for your input.

Read romans 1.

Paul says no one has an excuse.

We may be able to close our eyes to it, Harden our hearts to it. Be willingly blind to it.

But it is still there. And i think paul makes it clear. We can not remove it from our hearts, it will always be their convicting, and trying to do its job..

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

We are first under the law. We must attempt to keep it perfectly before God.

When we come to the end of ourselves and find out we can't keep the law perfectly before God, we cry out to Him for His Help and Mercy.

He gives us these things exceedingly abundantly more than we can think or ask. So much so that our work at the law is no longer required. Only our Faith in the Work that He has done and does in us.

The law never goes away. It is there to bring people to Christ. Just after it brings us to Christ it has fulfilled its purpose and shows us that it is the Holy Spirit that keeps the law and not flesh and carnal will.

Okay, I understand what you are saying now, but can you please prove it with scripture?

 

[Richie_2uk]

look at Luke 11: 46. " Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them. "

Even then laws were for one, and laws for others, Bit like our governments today. one law for them, and one law for us. But how many of the laws that are for the governments are kept?

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

Read romans 1.

Paul says no one has an excuse.

We may be able to close our eyes to it, Harden our hearts to it. Be willingly blind to it.

But it is still there. And i think paul makes it clear. We can not remove it from our hearts, it will always be their convicting, and trying to do its job..

I just read through Romans 1, it said nothing about that.

It does say how we need faith.

It also talks about homosexuality, and how people have basically corrupted the image of God [basically like modern logic, where people think God is okay with homosexuality, etc. when it is clear he is not].

I did not read anywhere that said it is written in our hearts. I am reading the KJV 1611. Can you please just quote the part where it says your perspective incase I missed it?

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

look at Luke 11: 46. " Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them. "

Even then laws were for one, and laws for others, Bit like our governments today. one law for them, and one law for us. But how many of the laws that are for the governments are kept?

Indeed. There were many people back in Jesus' time who put heavy burdens on everyone ,yet did nothing themselves.

However, you make an interesting point. Im just curious then, in correlation to Romans 8:29-30, why did God make the laws the way they are in the first place for the Jews?

 

[JesusLives]

Psalm 119:11

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]11 [/SUP]Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

Jeremiah 31: 32-33 A New Covenant
…32not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.



John 14:15

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.



Matthew 5:17-20

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

O.K. here are you bible verses to go along with post #9

Those who come to Jesus and accept Him as their Savior and repent are the qualifiers to have His law written on their hearts. If you choose to sin and not repent then it could be unwritten I suppose, but once one has tasted and seen that the Lord is good why would you want to turn away? Truly we can only come to Jesus just as we are and His Holy Spirit convicts us of sin to repent and convinces us of truth. Some of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. We come to Jesus as sinners and He cleans us up, we can't clean ourselves up we are not capable of doing that. Legalists try, but they fail. Jesus saves we don't save ourselves.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

Psalm 119:11

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]11 [/SUP]Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

Jeremiah 31: 32-33 A New Covenant
…32not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.



John 14:15

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.



Matthew 5:17-20

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

O.K. here are you bible verses to go along with post #9

Those who come to Jesus and accept Him as their Savior and repent are the qualifiers to have His law written on their hearts. If you choose to sin and not repent then it could be unwritten I suppose, but once one has tasted and seen that the Lord is good why would you want to turn away? Truly we can only come to Jesus just as we are and His Holy Spirit convicts us of sin to repent and convinces us of truth. Some of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. We come to Jesus as sinners and He cleans us up, we can't clean ourselves up we are not capable of doing that. Legalists try, but they fail. Jesus saves we don't save ourselves.

Great job. I appreciate you using the Bible specifically to prove your point. I now agree with your perspective.

It makes sense because sometimes you know something is bad or feel it is bad. In essence, I still think now that studying the laws benefits, but at the same time I agree with your perspective now.

 

[paulsfam4]

THIS IS A EASY ONE!! The Righteous Shall Live by Faith For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith. Gal 3:10-14