AM I JEW OR A GENTILE IF I KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS ?

[Karraster]

[SUP]23 [/SUP]When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And some were convinced by what he said, but others disbelieved. [SUP]25 [/SUP]And disagreeing among themselves, they departed after Paul had made one statement: “The Holy Spirit was right in saying to your fathers through Isaiah the prophet:

[SUP]26 [/SUP]“‘Go to this people, and say,
“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed;
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’


[SUP]28 [/SUP]Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen.”[SUP][f]

I question if evangelists today could do as Rabbi Shaul did, leading people to Messiah by using the Law of Moses and the Prophets. Indeed many have turned people away from the law and the prophets. However, each man is responsible for himself to seek God, or be led astray by the deceiver that says God changed His mind by sending Christ.


[/SUP]

 

[Karraster]

Is the law of Jeremiah 17:21-22 that no one should carry a load on the sabbath man's law, or God's law?

When Jesus told the man in John 5 to carry his bed on the sabbath, was he breaking this law?

I would appreciate your answer. For all your comments about siding with those who sought to kill Jesus, the evidence is clear from Jesus' own mouth in John 5:17 that he was working on the sabbath. So my last question for you is,

What was Jesus doing on the sabbath according to John 5:17 if not working? Was it God, or man, who said not to work on the sabbath in Exodus 20?

No, he was not breaking man's law, but God's. And he had the right to do so, because he made it, and had the right to change it.

We all would understand the Word with better clarity if we seek the truth. This foreign culture we try to understand is impossible for us today without looking into history, having a better understanding of what words mean, and where the english translation falls short.

Look up this understand about the man carrying his bed from a Hebrew rabbinical perspective. It is available at many venues on the web, and other such ways Jesus mocked the Pharisee of His day by keeping God's law, (which they did not) and breaking their laws (which they deemed higher than God's)

On thing is important to know. Had Jesus broken God's Laws, He would not have been the One the prophets foretold. Jesus had to be a perfect (in God's eyes) sacrifice.

 

[Daley]

We all would understand the Word with better clarity if we seek the truth. This foreign culture we try to understand is impossible for us today without looking into history, having a better understanding of what words mean, and where the english translation falls short.

Look up this understand about the man carrying his bed from a Hebrew rabbinical perspective. It is available at many venues on the web, and other such ways Jesus mocked the Pharisee of His day by keeping God's law, (which they did not) and breaking their laws (which they deemed higher than God's)

On thing is important to know. Had Jesus broken God's Laws, He would not have been the One the prophets foretold. Jesus had to be a perfect (in God's eyes) sacrifice.

You are telling me that Christians cannot understand the Word of God without doing studies into rabbinical history. This is nonsense. God already knew when he first had his people write the Scriptures that most people reading it today would be from a non-Jewish background, without this historical knowledge of rabbinical ways. So its just foolish to assume that God would have his Gospel written in such a way that the average seeker of truth cannot understand it without this kind of study into Jewish history.

Even if that were the case as you claimed, you still have totally avoided my questions, why? Were you afraid? You claimed Jesus didn't break God's law, only the Jewish traditions, so tell me, 1, does not Jeremiah 17:21-22 forbid carrying a load on the sabbath? 2, is a bed a load? 3, did Jesus command the man to carry his bed on the sabbath? 4, did Jesus say he was working on the sabbath in John 5:17? "My Father worketh hereto, and I work." What on earth does WORK mean? This isn't the Jews' opinion here, this is Jesus himself speaking. So you need to do better.

You claim that if Jesus broke the sabbath then he couldn't be a perfect sacrifice, but where does the Bible say this? Again, you have no Biblical evidence for this.

 

[Karraster]

As to, "did Adam and Eve rest on Sabbath?" Of course they did, and I'll bet it was glorious! It would have been their first full day on earth, and God rested. Imagine a Creator who planed everything so beautifully. We have not capacity to fathom how Great God is!

 

[Daley]

I challenge everyone here who believes Jesus didn't break the sabbath, to prove me wrong from Scripture, that he was breaking the sabbath in John 5.

 

[Karraster]

You are telling me that Christians cannot understand the Word of God without doing studies into rabbinical history. This is nonsense. God already knew when he first had his people write the Scriptures that most people reading it today would be from a non-Jewish background, without this historical knowledge of rabbinical ways. So its just foolish to assume that God would have his Gospel written in such a way that the average seeker of truth cannot understand it without this kind of study into Jewish history.

Even if that were the case as you claimed, you still have totally avoided my questions, why? Were you afraid? You claimed Jesus didn't break God's law, only the Jewish traditions, so tell me, 1, does not Jeremiah 17:21-22 forbid carrying a load on the sabbath? 2, is a bed a load? 3, did Jesus command the man to carry his bed on the sabbath? 4, did Jesus say he was working on the sabbath in John 5:17? "My Father worketh hereto, and I work." What on earth does WORK mean? This isn't the Jews' opinion here, this is Jesus himself speaking. So you need to do better.

You claim that if Jesus broke the sabbath then he couldn't be a perfect sacrifice, but where does the Bible say this? Again, you have no Biblical evidence for this.

Greeks mindset is to gain knowledge to know. Hebrew mindset is to gain knowledge to do. If you want to please God, pride has no place.

 

[Daley]

As to, "did Adam and Eve rest on Sabbath?" Of course they did, and I'll bet it was glorious! It would have been their first full day on earth, and God rested. Imagine a Creator who planed everything so beautifully. We have not capacity to fathom how Great God is!

There is not a single Bible verse which says that Adam and Eve knew about the sabbath. In fact, this opinion you have is based on a misunderstanding of Genesis 2. You assume alot. You assume that God's creation rest is the same thing as the weekly sabbath, then assume that it was told to Adam and Eve, but notice that Genesis records no conversation between God and man about this rest. In fact, the Bible says they didn't know about it. Hebrews 4:4 quotes this rest in Genesis 2:1-3, then it says in Hebrews 4:6 about this rest, that "they to whom it was FIRST PREACHED entered not in because of unbelief." Now if it was first preached to Adam and Eve, then they didn't enter this rest because of unbelief, and you are wrong for claiming they did. But Hebrews tells us in the context who they were to whom this creation rest was FIRST PREACHED, that is, FIRST MADE KNOWN. Preach, means "to declare, to make known." Hebrews 3:16-19 says it was the Israelites in the wilderness who did not enter this rest because of unbelief, and thus, it was them to whom it was FIRST PREACHED that ENTERED NOT IN because of unbelief in the context. So God's rest at creation was not preached or revealed to anyone until Israel left Egypt.

Now, when God made Adam, this would be the first day of his life. He would not be aware of any days before this, or anything about the previous creation days. Adam didn't have the book of Genesis to tell him about it, nor is there a record that God told him. We also have a record that God first told it to Israel, so Adam didn't know, and the book of Genesis wasn't written till after the Exodus. Further, not a single person before the Exodus is recorded as keeping the sabbath in Genesis, or talking about it, or being instructed about it. This long silence for over 2, 500 years seems to suggest that the sabbath was unknown from Adam to Moses. God resting on the seventh day didn't make it sacred, God blessing it didn't make it sacred. He had to sanctify it, but the sanctification only took place sometime AFTER he rested and blessed the day. Genesis 2:1-3 doesn't tell us WHEN God sanctified his creation rest day. By the time Genesis was written, the sanctification had already taken place, but Genesis doesn't say when, and it could have occurred not before he preached it to Israel. So again, your belief is based on assumption. Its also an assumption these were even literal days, but that is another matter.

 

[Timeline]

@ Zin #635

I was going to reply to quote, but too long.

I agree that there are not contradictions in the bible. But where there appears to be a contradiction (and there are quite a few of those) I find that in most cases you must put the "contradictions" together to get the truth.

 

[Daley]

Greeks mindset is to gain knowledge to know. Hebrew mindset is to gain knowledge to do. If you want to please God, pride has no place.

If you believe in doing everything in the Bible, then go sacrifice some animals, and grow your locks and take a Nazarite vow. (Num 6) Context is important to know to whom certain commands apply, and for how long. But for all these comments, the fact that you cannot give me a proper exegesis of John 5:1-18 and show me wrong on my comparison of Jeremiah 17:21-22 with this passage shows you have no case. You have time to drop all kinds of comments, but no time to examine the text and reply to what it says. You are yet to answer my questions on this passage, and until you do, you haven't proved your case. Since you think you have a Hebrew mindset to gain knowledge to do, then do like Christ. Follow the instruction he gave this man, and carry a load on the sabbath!

 

[Karraster]

Why did God pick Sukkot for obedience to the Gentiles?

Everybody gets to eat outside, including the birds. There are 2 tables. Which table do you want to be at?

 

[Zinzerio]

I challenge everyone here who believes Jesus didn't break the sabbath, to prove me wrong from Scripture, that he was breaking the sabbath in John 5.

New International Version - UK (NIVUK) John 5:9
Then Jesus said to him, ‘Get up! Pick up your mat and walk.’ [SUP]9 [/SUP]At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked.The day on which this took place was a Sabbath,

here we see it was not a bed it was a mat. a mat is something you can roll up and put into a small plastic bag.

The crowd where more angry with Jesus because he said he was the son of man and he had the authority to forgive sins.

the moral of the story is people will try to pick apart anyone who they see more holy than thou,

 

[Zinzerio]

@ Zin #635

I was going to reply to quote, but too long.

I agree that there are not contradictions in the bible. But where there appears to be a contradiction (and there are quite a few of those) I find that in most cases you must put the "contradictions" together to get the truth.

read it when you have more time i will pm you a link that has a nicer background and clearer for you to understand i found after searching and searching on the internet and im glad i did, there a couple of things i did not agree with but most of i did

 

[Timeline]

You who believe obeying God is works. You who believe once saved always saved. You who believe faith without works is just fine. I think you should read the words of the Master more.

Reading the parable of the master of some land who went on a journey leaving varying amounts of talents of silver with various of his servants, it is taught by our Master that once we receive from Him the gift of faith, and we claim to serve Him, if we hide our faith and do nothing we are wicked and slothful servants. Those who worked to increase their talents of silver where not only thanked but rewarded with the same amount again.

The one who did nothing with his gift or charge from the Master was bound and thrown into the outer darkeness. I realize some will say the parable has nothing to do with works, yet those who will say this also say they see. If they do say they see, their guilt will remain. This is not my thinking, no, this is my learning from the Master. He speaks plainly, and does not make things seem futile, though some lessons do appear hard at first, it is better to learn them because if not, you will pay for not heeding the Word.

Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written,
“Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense,
And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

I don't know about everyone else, but I am not saying that we should not do the Lord's work. But the problem is when someone thinks that they can work to be saved. You can not work to be saved. But if you received the law of grace you are saved in Jesus Christ. You work because you are grateful for what has been done for you. You are not earning anything.

 

[Timeline]

Should gentiles follow the Mosaic law? Absolutely not.



The apostles in Jerusalem sent them a letter and told them four things to do. Isn't it interesting that they never mentioned keeping the sabbath or keeping a kosher diet? Yet the judaizers among us teach something different. Shame on them for ignoring the clear dictates of the apostles in Jerusalem.

Mark 7:17-22 When he had left the crowd and entered the house, His disciples questioned Him about the parable. And He *said to them, “Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?” (Thus He declared all foods clean.) And He was saying, “That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”
1 Timothy 4:1- But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

In case it is not clear, I am reinforcing your thought. This is one of the many places where we are told that we have been freed from the old law.

 

[Daley]

New International Version - UK (NIVUK) John 5:9
Then Jesus said to him, ‘Get up! Pick up your mat and walk.’ [SUP]9 [/SUP]At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked.The day on which this took place was a Sabbath,

here we see it was not a bed it was a mat. a mat is something you can roll up and put into a small plastic bag.

The crowd where more angry with Jesus because he said he was the son of man and he had the authority to forgive sins.

the moral of the story is people will try to pick apart anyone who they see more holy than thou,

So you think the NIV rendering will save your sabbath?

[h=2]John 5:8 Translations[/h][h=3]King James Version (KJV)[/h] Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
[h=3]American King James Version (AKJV)[/h]Jesus said to him, Rise, take up your bed, and walk.
[h=3]American Standard Version (ASV)[/h]Jesus saith unto him, Arise, take up thy bed, and walk.
[h=3]Basic English Translation (BBE)[/h]Jesus said to him, Get up, take your bed and go.
[h=3]Webster's Revision[/h]Jesus saith unto him, Arise, take up thy bed, and walk.

[h=3]English Revised Version (ERV)[/h]Jesus saith unto him, Arise, take up thy bed, and walk.

Many other translations say, "bed." Further, a mat big enough for a person to sleep on would be fairly large. When you roll that mat up, it would have some weight. Do you move the mats in your house on the sabbath?

Jesus was the one who said in verse 17 that he was working, so I'll go with Jesus' interpretation. The apostle John was the one who said Jesus was breaking the sabbath. I'll go with his interpretation. So bed, or mat, my question again it, it it a load? If so, what does Jeremiah 17:21-22 say about carrying a load on the sabbath? It seems the only way out for you is to argue that it was so light a mat, it was so small and easy to carry, that it wasn't a load. Even then, you fly in the face in the context.

 

[Daley]

Why did God pick Sukkot for obedience to the Gentiles?

Everybody gets to eat outside, including the birds. There are 2 tables. Which table do you want to be at?

I don't know which Bible verse you are referring to. Also, why should I even answer your questions if you aren't willing to answer mine?

 

[Powemm]

Answering the original post.... Am I a jew or gentile if I keep the commandments.God is the keeper of the commandments

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are telling me that Christians cannot understand the Word of God without doing studies into rabbinical history. This is nonsense. God already knew when he first had his people write the Scriptures that most people reading it today would be from a non-Jewish background, without this historical knowledge of rabbinical ways. So its just foolish to assume that God would have his Gospel written in such a way that the average seeker of truth cannot understand it without this kind of study into Jewish history.

Even if that were the case as you claimed, you still have totally avoided my questions, why? Were you afraid? You claimed Jesus didn't break God's law, only the Jewish traditions, so tell me, 1, does not Jeremiah 17:21-22 forbid carrying a load on the sabbath? 2, is a bed a load? 3, did Jesus command the man to carry his bed on the sabbath? 4, did Jesus say he was working on the sabbath in John 5:17? "My Father worketh hereto, and I work." What on earth does WORK mean? This isn't the Jews' opinion here, this is Jesus himself speaking. So you need to do better.

You claim that if Jesus broke the sabbath then he couldn't be a perfect sacrifice, but where does the Bible say this? Again, you have no Biblical evidence for this.

He did not break the sabbath any more than David did when he ate showbread.

Sin is seeking to satisfy self, or to puff self up or anything done out of selfishness.

Jesus did it for others.. It is not against Gods law to take care of a person in need, In fact not taking care of the person would be sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I challenge everyone here who believes Jesus didn't break the sabbath, to prove me wrong from Scripture, that he was breaking the sabbath in John 5.

read above.

If jesus broke the sabbath, He sinned, and his death was nullified as payment for our sin.

 

[Zinzerio]

read above.

If jesus broke the sabbath, He sinned, and his death was nullified as payment for our sin.

i think what people dont seem to see is on the sabbath day works of necessity and mercy are ok, and the sabbath to me is not just about putting your feet up its about keeping it holy by keeping the peace on that day more than any other day in remembrance to our lord who rested on that day and made that day a day of peace. that is why through out time most people have always looked forward to that day.