Laws - do they exist or not?

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What is your opinion on the Laws?

  • They exist and we must follow them.

    Votes: 1 12.5%
  • They do not exist.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • They exist but they are written on our hearts.

    Votes: 3 37.5%
  • I have an opinion that is different than the three main options.

    Votes: 4 50.0%
  • I don't know.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    8
  • Poll closed .
Okay, I understand what you are saying now, but can you please prove it with scripture?

Of course.

But I won't.

You need to experience it for yourself. Otherwise it would only be intellectual knowledge. But I can give you this;

Ephesians 1:17-23
[SUP]17 [/SUP]That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
[SUP]18 [/SUP]The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
 
I just read through Romans 1, it said nothing about that.

It does say how we need faith.

It also talks about homosexuality, and how people have basically corrupted the image of God [basically like modern logic, where people think God is okay with homosexuality, etc. when it is clear he is not].

I did not read anywhere that said it is written in our hearts. I am reading the KJV 1611. Can you please just quote the part where it says your perspective incase I missed it?

[SUP]18 [/SUP]For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, [SUP]19 [/SUP]because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, [SUP]21 [/SUP]because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Professing to be wise, they became fools,

[SUP]32 [/SUP]who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Can you answer me a question?

The bible was not written until Moses, A few thousand years after Creation.
This passage states clearly. that all men from the begining of time (including those who never had a bible to be told things) knew God and his righteous judgment

so. How could they know these things, unless they are written on their hearts?
 
Great job. I appreciate you using the Bible specifically to prove your point. I now agree with your perspective.

It makes sense because sometimes you know something is bad or feel it is bad. In essence, I still think now that studying the laws benefits, but at the same time I agree with your perspective now.

I might have written the post but those are really God's words it took me 56 years to understand salvation so I am really like three years old in my understanding. One thing that has really helped me though when I am confused I just keep praying for understanding and say to myself God is not the author of confusion. God/Holy Spirit will lead you to truth and understanding Just keep praying for wisdom and knowledge maybe you will get it long before I did. Blessings to you in your walk with Jesus.

1 Corinthians 14:33King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]33 [/SUP]For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
 
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The Law was our teacher and shows that we need a saviour and shows how utterly sinful we all are (well all except for Christ - who was the only one who lived a holy and righteous life). Romans paraphrased

The problem I feel is a common misconception on reading Paul's writings for instance take Galatians 5 it says in verse 18 ...

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

However, immediately preceding this is these verses...

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. [/FONT]


and after the verse 18 is

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[a] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[b]drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.





So it seems obvious to me that if we follow God's Spirit by nature we will be doing the very things the law requires and thus we no longer need the tutor and thus are no longer under it.

But you can see that if you take just verse 18 out of context that being a Christian would give you licence to sin. Something Paul made very clear in all his letters he was opposed to such a doctrine. Romans in chapter 6

The daft thing is many take these verses out of context and build false doctrines around them. We mustn't be deceived thinking we can carry on deliberately wilfully sinning as in verse 21 it says "that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

Now the other problem is should we keep the whole Law of Moses? Ie does this identify sin for all mankind or has God given extra laws to Israel which are specific to them and them alone.

Well most know the 10 commandments but what is interesting in Deut 5 is that this clearly states it was given to the Israelites at the time and not to the Patriarchs. But wait I hear you say the feasts they should be kept by all well let me put it this way let's take the Passover this points to the Israelites being rescued from the Bondage in Egypt would Noah/Abraham/Adam been told to keep a feast that would have had no significance to them as it happened thousand of years later???

Besides Deut 5 says clearly these were not given to "our fathers"
5 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.



Now God commanded Noah to build an ark does this mean we should all build arks? We are commanded to keep the Lord's supper were the Israelites commanded to keep the Lord's supper in the Mosaic covenant?

Now you might think I am being facetious here I am not I am trying to make a point that although these are all Laws given by God not all laws are applicable to all mankind and all time.

However, there are laws that are never changing these were indeed within the Mosaic law as well - what many call the Moral law ie do not murder, do not commit adultery... We can see this in Genesis for example between Cain and Abel.. God said to Cain that sin was crouching at Cain's door. Just before Cain killed his brother.

Genesis 4 v7
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.


There are also laws that were given to specific people at specific times. Interestingly these are obvious too as we see in Paul's writings to the Colossians, Romans and Galatians that these were mere shadows but the reality is in Christ...

Let's take Passover again. Jesus is our Passover lamb we don't have to sacrifice at the alter every year as Jesus has done it once and for all. Hebrews.

Now, I am not judging anyone who wants to keep the feasts, or get circumcised etc I am just trying to make a point.

Paul has clearly labelled things that relate to the sinful nature and things that relate to the Spirit so if you are trully born again then you will follow God's spirit submitting to God and thus fulfil the law in Love.

God Bless


Additional note we all do struggle with sin. Submit to God we must want to leave our life of sin and let Christ be our Master.
Additional additional, isn't it interesting who was opposed to Christ. The religious order. I sometimes wonder what God would make of our Churches today. We may not have fallen down on the side of wanting to kill people when they commit sin like the Pharaseed but what we may fall down on is not expressing how much we need to REPENT. You know I believe many Churches do not preach the Gospel which is sad because in a fallen world it is what is needed.

God Bless.
 
I put a very long post on. In reality we are saved by Grace so that no-one can boast. My point is if we are trully Christian we have crucified the sinful nature and its lusts and now should live for Christ by submitting to him we would then follow his Spirit and thus not gratify the sinful nature.

I tried to delete the post as I noticed it was very long.
 
Most people today haven't a clue about what scripture is talking about when it discusses any law. In the OT it uses temples, oxen, strange things to us, and because they had no prisons or jails for major offenders, their punishments are foreign to us. Besides they were written for people who lived before Christ took His rightful place in such as blood, temple, and Holy Spirit.

In the NT "the law" is spoken of and today's people don't know what they mean by that. The people the letters explaining were written to knew, but we aren't living in those times. It would be like someone trying to decipher our news when the news was about the cold war without them knowing a thing about Russia. They would have to know about Hillel, laws made for gentiles to join Jews, and gentile/Jew relations to understand what questions Paul was answering.

Most of today's bible students aren't even aware that the book of Hebrews was written to people bewildered about what they heard of this new idea of Christ being crucified and just wanting to go back to what they knew all about.
 
Most people today haven't a clue about what scripture is talking about when it discusses any law. In the OT it uses temples, oxen, strange things to us, and because they had no prisons or jails for major offenders, their punishments are foreign to us. Besides they were written for people who lived before Christ took His rightful place in such as blood, temple, and Holy Spirit.

In the NT "the law" is spoken of and today's people don't know what they mean by that. The people the letters explaining were written to knew, but we aren't living in those times. It would be like someone trying to decipher our news when the news was about the cold war without them knowing a thing about Russia. They would have to know about Hillel, laws made for gentiles to join Jews, and gentile/Jew relations to understand what questions Paul was answering.

Most of today's bible students aren't even aware that the book of Hebrews was written to people bewildered about what they heard of this new idea of Christ being crucified and just wanting to go back to what they knew all about.


Good point I have heard it said that the least read book and most misunderstood book of the whole bible is Leviticus.
 
But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the LORD, I will put My law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people;
(Jer 31:33)

Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
(2Co 3:3)

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
(Heb 8:10)

...essence of the law written on the heart, shown in regeneration, encapsuled by the fruit of the Spirit.

And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
(Rom 5:5)

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
(Gal 5:22-23)
 
Indeed. There were many people back in Jesus' time who put heavy burdens on everyone ,yet did nothing themselves.

However, you make an interesting point. Im just curious then, in correlation to Romans 8:29-30, why did God make the laws the way they are in the first place for the Jews?

Probably for a the reason we may not understand, But he did it for what ever reason He had at the time.
 
But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the LORD, I will put My law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people;
(Jer 31:33)

Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
(2Co 3:3)

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
(Heb 8:10)

...essence of the law written on the heart, shown in regeneration, encapsuled by the fruit of the Spirit.

And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
(Rom 5:5)

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
(Gal 5:22-23)
All this is wonderful truth, you will recognize the law of God, your heart will be in tune with it, but if your ears will not hear and your eyes will not see scripture, you are going to have a hard time getting this information to your Holy Spirit for it to recognize. The word needs to be included.
 
The law does exists, but not the Mosaic laws. We are under the law of Christ:
To those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. 1 Cor.9:21

Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. Gal 6:2

Compare those two verses above with:
The Greatest Commandment

28
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[SUP]e[/SUP] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[SUP]f[/SUP] 31The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[SUP]g[/SUP] There is no commandment greater than these.” Mark 12:29:31

Further reading on the law of Christ
What is the law of Christ?
 
Some of the law of Christ:

Matt 5:27 -28 "You have heard that it was said, Do not commit adultery. 28 But I tell you, everyone who looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.


Mat 5:33-42 "Again, you have heard that it was said to our ancestors, You must not break your oath, but you must keep your oaths to the Lord. 34 But I tell you, don't take an oath at all: either by heaven, because it is God's throne; 35
or by the earth, because it is His footstool; or by Jerusalem, because it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither should you swear by your head, because you cannot make a single hair white or black. 37 But let your word 'yes' be 'yes,' and your 'no' be 'no.' Anything more than this is from the evil one. 38 "You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. 39 But I tell you, don't resist an evildoer. On the contrary, if anyone slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 As for the one who wants to sue you and take away your shirt, let him have your coat as well. 41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and don't turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
 
You make a good point, do you mind me requesting scripture to prove your point? Just to make it factual and evidence based.

On a side note, can you elaborate on your position of grace? For example, my understanding of grace is that it does the following:
- allows non-jews to enter Heaven
- allows people to repent for their sins

Do you have another understanding? If so, pelase elaborate. On a side note, please try to use Bible verses to prove your perspective, as well to everyone else posting. It is greatly appreciated that people are participating, but I would appreciate bible verses to prove your points :D. Thank you again though for commenting.

Obviously, the NT is full of the grace and mercy of Jesus for our salvation, but I think Matt 5:17-19 provides the proper context for a Christian's response to the Law.

Matthew 5:17-19 "“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Once that salvation is given, then we can know how to live in response to that salvation.

Grace is for all people, not just Jews or non-Jews. It's a gift of salvation granted to a person who is completely undeserving.
 
Its the gift of The Holy Spirit that enables us to keep God's moral code, provided by the cross and nothing else. Gace is God's unmerited favor. Remember, unmerited, not law keeping but unmerited, Provided by the cross.
 
All this is wonderful truth, you will recognize the law of God, your heart will be in tune with it, but if your ears will not hear and your eyes will not see scripture, you are going to have a hard time getting this information to your Holy Spirit for it to recognize. The word needs to be included.

Don't worry, that is where I came up with those verses. :D
 
We are first under the law. We must attempt to keep it perfectly before God.

When we come to the end of ourselves and find out we can't keep the law perfectly before God, we cry out to Him for His Help and Mercy.

He gives us these things exceedingly abundantly more than we can think or ask. So much so that our work at the law is no longer required. Only our Faith in the Work that He has done and does in us.

The law never goes away. It is there to bring people to Christ. Just after it brings us to Christ it has fulfilled its purpose and shows us that it is the Holy Spirit that keeps the law and not flesh and carnal will.
I think you are missing some facts of life here. We are not talking pie in the sky, we are talking about how it works. Let's take me as a young girl to use as an example.

I was 18, I wanted to know the Lord, I was sure He was real but I couldn't understand a word God said. I went to churches, I listened to my Christian roommate, I read the bible. Nothing. One night, while determinedly reading the sermon on the mount, I felt a change in me and Wow! I could understand.

I was a baby Christian. But I didn't know about law and Holy Spirit and under law or not---none of it. I had the Holy Spirit, I could learn, but if someone would have told me that through the Holy Spirit I knew all about God I would have laughed at them, I knew I had a lot to learn. You are saying I knew it all, the Holy Spirit told me all about it. Well, I am here to tell you that I had the Holy Spirit and I didn't have all this information.
 
I think there has been some really good points already. Clearly the Law was given to the Israelites, as a covenant that if they obeyed them then God would preserve them in the Promised Land. I have no doubt that Jesus was correct in saying that covenant would be honored until Heaven and Earth pass. It isn't a means of salvation, I don't think even then.
 
I think there has been some really good points already. Clearly the Law was given to the Israelites, as a covenant that if they obeyed them then God would preserve them in the Promised Land. I have no doubt that Jesus was correct in saying that covenant would be honored until Heaven and Earth pass. It isn't a means of salvation, I don't think even then.
What a jump in understanding!

I would like to add to the statement "given to the Israelites". If you will use your concordance or search capabilities with the words "foreigners" or "strangers among you" you will see that over and over, even in the OT that God was not speaking just to the small select group God set aside for special training, God was speaking to everyone he created that would hear Him. Gentiles were always to be included, even before special missionaries were selected to speak specifically to us.
 
So I have my own honest opinion on this, but I have little time in my life so Im not going to get involved in a huge debate on CC again. However, I would like to know a concrete answer because I can see the goods and bad in each position [even in my own position]. I am willing to be proven wrong, or else it would be useless to even post this in the first place......................................
I am at a loss for an explanation of this thread.
You post asking for an opinion on one of the most polarizeing topics on this board, then claim you don't want to get in a debate about it.
You then state you are willing to be proven wrong, and apparently acknowledge being aware of previous discussions about this topic.

My friend, your post lacks sincerity in claiming to seek truth and understanding about this topic.
 
What a jump in understanding!

I would like to add to the statement "given to the Israelites". If you will use your concordance or search capabilities with the words "foreigners" or "strangers among you" you will see that over and over, even in the OT that God was not speaking just to the small select group God set aside for special training, God was speaking to everyone he created that would hear Him. Gentiles were always to be included, even before special missionaries were selected to speak specifically to us.

I'm confused at what you mean here? It appears in Deut. when Moses delivered the Law he only addressed the Israelites. Are you suggesting he intended it for all to uphold? If I missed something please point it out.