Is there such a thing as an atheist?

[Cycel]

I am sorry I do not understand your question. God punished the snake for causing man to fall into disobedience, but before that he was already condemned. I don't see anywhere in the bible that other snakes followed?

I would start off by saying your way of viewing the story of Eve and the serpent has been influenced by your Christian upbringing. You have been told that the serpent was Satan and so the punishment of the snake was actually the punishment of Satan; but in fact there is no reference at all to Satan in Genesis. Read carefully the first thing that scripture tells you of the snake:

“The serpent was more crafty than any wild creature that the LORD God had made.” (Genesis 3:1 NEB)

“The serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild animals the LORD God had made.” (NLT version)

“Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.” (King James)

Three versions, three texts in agreement. The snake was a beast of the field, a wild creature, different from the other animals only in that it was more crafty, more shrewd, more subtle than the others; oh, and it could talk, but there is no claim, not here, that it was Satan. If you wish further evidence that the serpent was merely an animal scan down further to the account of its punishment by God.

“Because you have done this you are accursed
more than all cattle and all wild creatures.” (Genesis 3:14 NEB)

Can it be more plain? It is not more cursed than all the angels, or all the Sons of God, it is more cursed than all the animals, more than all the beasts of the field.

“I will put enmity between you and the woman,
between your brood and hers.
They shall strike at your head,
and you shall strike at their heel.” (Genesis 3:15)

What are women traditionally said to fear? Snakes. They do not strike at Satan’s head and he at their heel. This curse is directed at women and snakes, at its brood and hers.

So why could the snake talk? The obvious explanation is that the account in Genesis is a myth. Myths explain why nature is ordered in the way it is. Women are afraid of snakes because this is part of the curse. Labour is painful because that is part of the curse. Man will be her master because it is so directed in the curse.

“You shall be eager for your husband,
and he shall be your master.” (Genesis 3:16)


What of the snake? We all know the words, “On your belly you shall crawl, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life” (Genesis 3:14). The implication is that the snake did not previously crawl. We might also assume that this explains, to this very day, why all serpents now must crawl. Indeed we learn from Wikipedia that “Fossils readily identifiable as snakes (though often retaining hind limbs) first appear in the fossil record during the Cretaceous period” (see Wikipedia: Snake). Does the fossil record support the Genesis claim that snakes once had legs?

Further support for Genesis 3 being a myth is found in the presence of the two magical trees. The fruit of one tree imparts knowledge, the other grants eternal life. Both these traits are the domain of the gods and both were denied the first people, but that would take a few more paragraphs so I won’t get into it just now.

 

[Spokenpassage]

I would start off by saying your way of viewing the story of Eve and the serpent has been influenced by your Christian upbringing. You have been told that the serpent was Satan and so the punishment of the snake was actually the punishment of Satan; but in fact there is no reference at all to Satan in Genesis. Read carefully the first thing that scripture tells you of the snake:

“The serpent was more crafty than any wild creature that the LORD God had made.” (Genesis 3:1 NEB)

“The serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild animals the LORD God had made.” (NLT version)

“Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.” (King James)

Three versions, three texts in agreement. The snake was a beast of the field, a wild creature, different from the other animals only in that it was more crafty, more shrewd, more subtle than the others; oh, and it could talk, but there is no claim, not here, that it was Satan. If you wish further evidence that the serpent was merely an animal scan down further to the account of its punishment by God.

“Because you have done this you are accursed
more than all cattle and all wild creatures.” (Genesis 3:14 NEB)

"And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him."

- Revelation 12:9 NASB

"Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;"​

-

Revelation 20:1-2 NASB​

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
​

- John 8:44 NASB

What event was Jesus refer to when He said that the devil is a liar and was a murderer from the beginning? The very subject we are talking about.

I, even we do not assume he was Satan because he was Satan according to the bible. If you read the accounts of the activity of Satan throughout bible (Old and New), he causes disasters, deceptions, temptations, lies, and even transformations. Jesus said that he is already condemned for the end, so what would he do for the rest of his time? Drag anyone and everyone with him telling them lies about what is truth and what is false. He deceives the world. He is called the ruler of this world because they that don't know God are like cards to him, played out and deceived, thinking God isn't who He says He is when the demons themselves know that's a lie. Satan means adversary - primarily to God.​

Cycel he used this form of a snake, or serpent I should say, for his deceptive purposes. Just as he used Judas to betray Jesus. It was a real serpent like any other animal, because it was an instrument to tempt Eve. He is crafty at posing as something else, even as a angel of light Cycel (2 Corinthians 11:14).

Can it be more plain? It is not more cursed than all the angels, or all the Sons of God, it is more cursed than all the animals, more than all the beasts of the field.

“I will put enmity between you and the woman,
between your brood and hers.
They shall strike at your head,
and you shall strike at their heel.” (Genesis 3:15)

What are women traditionally said to fear? Snakes. They do not strike at Satan’s head and he at their heel. This curse is directed at women and snakes, at its brood and hers.

It's better read like this:

"And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel."
- Genesis 3:15 NASB

Notice that this mysterious pronoun 'He' is used out of nowhere. This is actually a prophetic passage of Jesus and devil. The seed (Jesus Christ) of the woman will bruise his head (crush the devil's power) but His heel will be struck (the crucifixion) in the process.

This is a prophetic message of the come back of good to the evil; Jesus and the Devil. The crucifixion is the Christian's victory in Christ.

So why could the snake talk? The obvious explanation is that the account in Genesis is a myth. Myths explain why nature is ordered in the way it is. Women are afraid of snakes because this is part of the curse. Labour is painful because that is part of the curse. Man will be her master because it is so directed in the curse.

“You shall be eager for your husband,
and he shall be your master.” (Genesis 3:16)


What of the snake? We all know the words, “On your belly you shall crawl, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life” (Genesis 3:14). The implication is that the snake did not previously crawl. We might also assume that this explains, to this very day, why all serpents now must crawl. Indeed we learn from Wikipedia that “Fossils readily identifiable as snakes (though often retaining hind limbs) first appear in the fossil record during the Cretaceous period” (see Wikipedia: Snake). Does the fossil record support the Genesis claim that snakes once had legs?

Further support for Genesis 3 being a myth is found in the presence of the two magical trees. The fruit of one tree imparts knowledge, the other grants eternal life. Both these traits are the domain of the gods and both were denied the first people, but that would take a few more paragraphs so I won’t get into it just now.

Is it also magic for you to get vitamins from fruits and vegetables? Magic is deception, this is not. if anything is magic, I might say the human mind, but we both know that's real.

By the way we do have "trees that imparts knowledge", there called books. I hope you're not suggesting those are 'magic' too...

​

 

[Spokenpassage]

Another question...

Where in the bible does it mention God ordering a bible to be compiled and what selection method should be used when determining what books would be included or excluded?

If you are talking about canonization of the books, the order first off are most likely traditionally compiled; you can buy bibles that have the books in chronological order as well. Second, there is not one canonization period in which all the books are accepted in the bible. Matter of fact Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox have a different number of books, as well as the Jews for the old testament. Protestants have 66 books in total, the Roman Catholics has 7 additional books as well as additions to Esther and Daniel. The Orthodox has the Catholics canon including between 3-10 more additional books depending on the different branches.

 

[Simona25]

If you are talking about canonization of the books, the order first off are most likely traditionally compiled; you can buy bibles that have the books in chronological order as well. Second, there is not one canonization period in which all the books are accepted in the bible. Matter of fact Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox have a different number of books, as well as the Jews for the old testament. Protestants have 66 books in total, the Roman Catholics has 7 additional books as well as additions to Esther and Daniel. The Orthodox has the Catholics canon including between 3-10 more additional books depending on the different branches.

The canon of the New Testament is the same for all churches. But, the Old Testament is different. My Bible has more books than yours, because it has integrated in the Old Testament some uncanonical books, that are called uncanonicals, but good to read (although uncanonical, they re not harmful for the soul).

 

[Spokenpassage]

The canon of the New Testament is the same for all churches. But, the Old Testament is different. My Bible has more books than yours, because it has integrated in the Old Testament some uncanonical books, that are called uncanonicals, but good to read (although uncanonical, they re not harmful for the soul).

I don't take in consideration in reading them, but I do have the Catholic canon in my room, leaves me ignorant all of what they exactly say in those additional writings but maybe one day I will read it.

 

[homwardbound]

Cycel, have you ever witnessed a miracle? Just curious

 

[nl]

Over the weekend, I alluded to a creed called the Apostles' Creed.

FYE (for your entertainment and edification), please see the YouTube video below by thought-leader, organic church leader Alan Hirsch. Alan presents a credal statement in three words: Jesus is Lord.

FYE, shown below is a short video from the same series by Alan Hirsch. It compares consumerism with discipleship. Consumerism abounds both outside and inside the churches.

From the video: "Consumerism is the secular religion of our day." It seeks to provide:

• Belonging
• Purpose
• Identity
• Meaning

Discipleship on solid ground is needed.

[video=youtube;NN3oA5AETuI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN3oA5AETuI[/video]

 

[nl]

Cycel, have you ever witnessed a miracle? Just curious

Around the time of the Exodus under Moses, there were many miracles. I think that this generation saw more miracles than the people who saw Jesus in places like Galilee and Jerusalem.

Around the time of the Exodus, they had miracles that included:

• Plagues of rivers turned into blood
• Plagues of frogs
• Plagues of lice
• Plagues of thick darkness
• Plagues of the death of the firstborn
• Israel had the booty of riches given to them by the Egyptians as they escaped slavery
• Israel had a pillar of fire and a pillar of cloud to guide them in the wilderness
• Israel had deliverance through the Red Sea and destruction of the Egyptians who followed
• Israel had miraculous feeding by manna
• Israel had miraculous smoke and power displayed at Mount Sinai when the Ten Commandments and the law were given.

Yet, many who saw such miracles did not believe. Their hearts were hard.

Just sayin..

 

[Osiyo]

Yes, there are atheists, they even have a US Holiday=> April 1st Fools Days, Bible states Psalm 14:1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.
A atheist tried to get a holiday through the US court system, but the judge stated they alreday have one, and quoted this posted verse, end of case. Be blessed. An atheist is his or hers own god, do not worship other gods? My train of thought derailed, there were no survivors.

 

[nl]

Yes, there are atheists, they even have a US Holiday=> April 1st Fools Days, Bible states Psalm 14:1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.
A atheist tried to get a holiday through the US court system, but the judge stated they alreday have one, and quoted this posted verse, end of case. Be blessed. An atheist is his or hers own god, do not worship other gods? My train of thought derailed, there were no survivors.

Psalm 14:1 is a verse intended for fools not atheists.

The fools says in his (or her) heart that there is no god but they may not acknowledge the same thing with their mouth.

"...Fools despise wisdom and instruction." (Proverbs 1:7).

Fools turn themselves into virtual atheists because they reject wisdom and knowledge and instruction. Many atheists do not reject the pursuit of wisdom and knowledge and instruction but seek more and more of it.

 

[homwardbound]

Psalm 14:1 is a verse intended for fools not atheists.

The fools says in his (or her) heart that there is no god but they may not acknowledge the same thing with their mouth.

"...Fools despise wisdom and instruction." (Proverbs 1:7).

Fools turn themselves into virtual atheists because they reject wisdom and knowledge and instruction. Many atheists do not reject the pursuit of wisdom and knowledge and instruction but seek more and more of it.

Fools are the center of the universe, all is okay if one orbits me, whether a claimed believer or not it is that simple I am okay if you all orbit me and what I say
Can you see this you all, we are self centered are we not? Who do you give praise to and who gives praise to you? If you gave praise to all, in helping all, emptying the self centered attitudes we all have been brought up with, do you think you might find your true self? And just maybe be free

 

[nl]

Fools are the center of the universe, all is okay if one orbits me, whether a claimed believer or not...
Can you see this you all, we are self centered are we not? ...

As the Good Book says, Love is the fulfullment of the law. The Lord and Master Jesus Christ commands love.

Love is patient and kind and charitable towards others. Love can prioritize to put the needs of others ahead of self.

+++

How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge? (Proverbs 1:22)

Now, there can be people who acquire knowledge in general but reject knowledge that contains the truth concerning God.

"...they did not like to retain God in their knowledge..." (Romans 1:8).

As former US VP Al Gore has said: some truth is inconvenient truth. Truth can be inconvenient because it might weigh on us to respond to it with faith and love.

 

[IntoTheVoid]

Yes, there are atheists, they even have a US Holiday=> April 1st Fools Days, Bible states Psalm 14:1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.
A atheist tried to get a holiday through the US court system, but the judge stated they alreday have one, and quoted this posted verse, end of case. Be blessed. An atheist is his or hers own god, do not worship other gods? My train of thought derailed, there were no survivors.

So you think it's foolish to NOT believe stories about a talking snake telling a naked woman to eat a magic apple?

Foolish to not believe dead people come back to life? Virgin births? People turning into salt? People living over 500 years? Giants? Talking Donkeys?

I'm a fool for not believing in any of that without a shred of evidence? Come on, get some perspective!

Can you even understand why someone would have difficulty believing stuff like that?

 

[Spokenpassage]

So you think it's foolish to NOT believe stories about a talking snake telling a naked woman to eat a magic apple?

Foolish to not believe dead people come back to life? Virgin births? People turning into salt? People living over 500 years? Giants? Talking Donkeys?

I'm a fool for not believing in any of that without a shred of evidence? Come on, get some perspective!

Can you even understand why someone would have difficulty believing stuff like that?

No wonder you think it's foolish for the scriptures even say...

"The word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

- 1 Corinthians 1:18 NASB
​

​

"A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one."

- 1 Corinthians 2:10-15 NASB


​

The only way you will ever understand spiritual things, you must have the Holy Spirit in you. Otherwise, everything we are saying is either incomprehensible or foolishness. God did not hide the truth, they are unbearable until we are in the condition of spiritual life. Until the Jesus Christ is risen in you, you will always consider the truth as foolishness or incomprehensible.

 

[IntoTheVoid]

No wonder you think it's foolish for the scriptures even say...

"The word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

- 1 Corinthians 1:18 NASB
​

​

"A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one."

- 1 Corinthians 2:10-15 NASB


​

The only way you will ever understand spiritual things, you must have the Holy Spirit in you. Otherwise, everything we are saying is either incomprehensible or foolishness. God did not hide the truth, they are unbearable until we are in the condition of spiritual life. Until the Jesus Christ is risen in you, you will always consider the truth as foolishness or incomprehensible.

All I'm asking is.. Can you understand why people don't believe that sort of thing?

And is it right to call them fools for not believing that stuff?

 

[Cycel]

Cycel, have you ever witnessed a miracle? Just curious

I have never been witness to a miracle.

 

[Spokenpassage]

All I'm asking is.. Can you understand why people don't believe that sort of thing?

And is it right to call them fools for not believing that stuff?

All I am saying is...can you understand that everyone who is Christian wasn't all raised christian? There is a lot of us who once were like, 'what a bunch of weird religious people' before we actually believed. A lot of us were part of the world coming from all kinds of background. Where I live, usually a lot of the old people and elders were raised christian at church, but the people themselves weren't always.

We believe this foolishness because it's not foolishness to us anymore. It was once, just like you think it is, but now my eyes are open. The blinders were taken off. Why would I lie to you? Why would any Christian who truly loves God lie to you about this awesome truth? Lying is a sin. Be assured by my words, you don't even know the half of it that we preach until you are one of us...

 

[Cycel]

So you think it's foolish to NOT believe stories about a talking snake telling a naked woman to eat a magic apple?

... Can you even understand why someone would have difficulty believing stuff like that?

One time, in my late teens, my great aunt was having supper with us. My father piped up and told her that I didn't believe in Adam and Eve. I don't know whether he was attempting to embarrass me or what. I am sure he expected her to be an ally. I would never have told her such a thing, but to my surprise she turned to him and said, "Well, it is rather hard to believe, isn't it?" The discussion ended there. She was raised a Baptist, but I don't know what her beliefs were at that time. I was grateful for her reply.

 

[Cycel]

We believe this foolishness [Adam and Eve, etc.] because it's not foolishness to us anymore. It was once, just like you think it is, but now my eyes are open. The blinders were taken off. Why would I lie to you?

I don't think anyone would accuse you of lying. We know you believe the stories, but Void's question was: "Can you understand why people don't believe that sort of thing?" From your response I believe the answer is, "Yes."

 

[Spokenpassage]

I don't think anyone would accuse you of lying. We know you believe the stories, but Void's question was: "Can you understand why people don't believe that sort of thing?" From your response I believe the answer is, "Yes."

Cycel, to what I am pointing out is, to believe in Jesus is to understand Adam and Eve. Adam brought sin and death to all men through him, Jesus is considered the second Adam by bringing righteousness and life to all men through Him.

I can understand why people think it's foolishness, so my question is, do you guys understand why we think it's not?