Anyone who believes in the pattern of N.T. Christianity whether they are in a church that doesn't, but they do, even though they go to a church that doesn't can be saved because the grace of God and there willingness to believe only the truth and not what the church they are attending believes, then they will be saved. The Church of Christ conforms completely to N.T. Christianity and that's why I attend there. A person has to start somewhere and in time as they study they will see the truth and conform to believing the truth only, not what the church says, but what God says, that's who you are trust in. I use to believe that we that are members of the Church of Christ were the only one's going to heaven, and fortunately for me I had someone to explain to me my way of thinking was wrong and I see that and have changed my way of thinking thanks to this person who has changed my life who I am so very thankful.
Churches of Christ with or without instruments, which is the right way to worship?
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Where does the Bible say 'sing only.' You are adding in the 'sing only.' If you want to argue from Nadab and Abihu and say that harps, etc. are not commanded, then you can argue that. But if you say the verses you mentioned about singing and making melody in your heart say to 'sing only' then you are adding to scripture what is not there. These verses say nothing about not using other instruments.
Btw, using Nadab and Abihu's example is problematic because they were supposed to be using the temple fire, this was about the Old Testament temple and not the 'holy convocations' of the synagogue or the meetings of the church.
Also, my guess is you are completely comfortable with going to a church that does not follow explicit commands of scripture, including the command "Let all things be done unto edifying" regarding "every one of you" having a psalm, doctrine, tongue revelation, interpretation, the commands regarding speaking in tongues and interpretation, the command to let the prophets speak two or three and for the first to hold his peace if another sitting by receives a revelation, the statement, "For ye may all prophesy one by one....". Later Paul says that what he wrote to them were 'the commandments of the Lord'.
It is odd to me that some churches treat silence as a command, but ignore or even forbid what is explicitly commanded.
Btw, using Nadab and Abihu's example is problematic because they were supposed to be using the temple fire, this was about the Old Testament temple and not the 'holy convocations' of the synagogue or the meetings of the church.
Also, my guess is you are completely comfortable with going to a church that does not follow explicit commands of scripture, including the command "Let all things be done unto edifying" regarding "every one of you" having a psalm, doctrine, tongue revelation, interpretation, the commands regarding speaking in tongues and interpretation, the command to let the prophets speak two or three and for the first to hold his peace if another sitting by receives a revelation, the statement, "For ye may all prophesy one by one....". Later Paul says that what he wrote to them were 'the commandments of the Lord'.
It is odd to me that some churches treat silence as a command, but ignore or even forbid what is explicitly commanded.
Read the scripture closely, God did not say they did not build a fire the way he commanded them, he said they built a fire in a way he commanded them not (he never told them to build it that way), therefore your (and anybody else) that use the argument if the bible is silent on the matter, it is okay is proven wrong right here :
Leviticus 10:1 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Then Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it, put incense on it, and offered profane fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them.
Leviticus 10:1 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Then Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it, put incense on it, and offered profane fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them.
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1) As far as "I know" church history, I was raised in the Christian Churches, those which were like Churches of Christ, but they were used to play with instruments before the ONE you attend changed men´s TRADITIONS.
2) What a person "feels" as a sin is not and could be not, a sin for another, so -senses or ideas- do not relate to sins, unless these break GOD´s will.
3) The OT is full of times when INSTRUMENTAL music was "played" at services... Just have a look on David´s dancing. He was a king dancing "before" God (and being seeing by men and their women. Did he sin? Perhaps and perhaps not. David´s wife criticized his SHOWY dancing BUT David knew his own reasons to dance (I like dancing) (It makes me express my joy and my freedom to move and enjoy the music I hear).
4) I would agree the some PLAYERS would like to be seen and admired. Those who SING or PLAY music think they are VERY important during church service (Is it true?) But, as I have seen in some churches, those players are hidden behing a shade or curtains (just to avoid being showy, to hinder some selfcenterness) so, id I had to play or sing in a church like that, I´ll be glad to hide my face and my vanity, just for the sake to move my brethens into another level of WORSHIPPING GOD.
5) Have you ever attended a concert? Those go have gone feel what they feel and, if we go to heaven, music and angelic voices would be raised so, will your destroy instruments? Will you kill the music that stirs people to seek GOD by attending such services? I do agree Christians Churches aren´t a social CLUB, not a theater and certainly not a rock concert, but I have like PETRA, I like TFK and a couple of Christian musician who play well, instead of listeneing to the EROTIC SALSA I absolutely hate and, if it be taken to church, I would burn my ears...
2) What a person "feels" as a sin is not and could be not, a sin for another, so -senses or ideas- do not relate to sins, unless these break GOD´s will.
3) The OT is full of times when INSTRUMENTAL music was "played" at services... Just have a look on David´s dancing. He was a king dancing "before" God (and being seeing by men and their women. Did he sin? Perhaps and perhaps not. David´s wife criticized his SHOWY dancing BUT David knew his own reasons to dance (I like dancing) (It makes me express my joy and my freedom to move and enjoy the music I hear).
4) I would agree the some PLAYERS would like to be seen and admired. Those who SING or PLAY music think they are VERY important during church service (Is it true?) But, as I have seen in some churches, those players are hidden behing a shade or curtains (just to avoid being showy, to hinder some selfcenterness) so, id I had to play or sing in a church like that, I´ll be glad to hide my face and my vanity, just for the sake to move my brethens into another level of WORSHIPPING GOD.
5) Have you ever attended a concert? Those go have gone feel what they feel and, if we go to heaven, music and angelic voices would be raised so, will your destroy instruments? Will you kill the music that stirs people to seek GOD by attending such services? I do agree Christians Churches aren´t a social CLUB, not a theater and certainly not a rock concert, but I have like PETRA, I like TFK and a couple of Christian musician who play well, instead of listeneing to the EROTIC SALSA I absolutely hate and, if it be taken to church, I would burn my ears...
why not? i know you've read Colossians 3:16 - did you read 3:17?
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
(Colossians 3:16-17)
and again in 3:23 --
And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men
T
Interesting that you would conclude it was speaking of instraments when clearly it was speaking spiritually in context and the stretch is to turn psalms and singing and singing in spirit to include instruments. Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16; the phrase ἔχειν ψαλμόν is used of one who has it in his heart to sing or recite a song.
1) As far as "I know" church history, I was raised in the Christian Churches, those which were like Churches of Christ, but they were used to play with instruments before the ONE you attend changed men´s TRADITIONS.
2) What a person "feels" as a sin is not and could be not, a sin for another, so -senses or ideas- do not relate to sins, unless these break GOD´s will.
3) The OT is full of times when INSTRUMENTAL music was "played" at services... Just have a look on David´s dancing. He was a king dancing "before" God (and being seeing by men and their women. Did he sin? Perhaps and perhaps not. David´s wife criticized his SHOWY dancing BUT David knew his own reasons to dance (I like dancing) (It makes me express my joy and my freedom to move and enjoy the music I hear).
4) I would agree the some PLAYERS would like to be seen and admired. Those who SING or PLAY music think they are VERY important during church service (Is it true?) But, as I have seen in some churches, those players are hidden behing a shade or curtains (just to avoid being showy, to hinder some selfcenterness) so, id I had to play or sing in a church like that, I´ll be glad to hide my face and my vanity, just for the sake to move my brethens into another level of WORSHIPPING GOD.
5) Have you ever attended a concert? Those go have gone feel what they feel and, if we go to heaven, music and angelic voices would be raised so, will your destroy instruments? Will you kill the music that stirs people to seek GOD by attending such services? I do agree Christians Churches aren´t a social CLUB, not a theater and certainly not a rock concert, but I have like PETRA, I like TFK and a couple of Christian musician who play well, instead of listeneing to the EROTIC SALSA I absolutely hate and, if it be taken to church, I would burn my ears...
2) What a person "feels" as a sin is not and could be not, a sin for another, so -senses or ideas- do not relate to sins, unless these break GOD´s will.
3) The OT is full of times when INSTRUMENTAL music was "played" at services... Just have a look on David´s dancing. He was a king dancing "before" God (and being seeing by men and their women. Did he sin? Perhaps and perhaps not. David´s wife criticized his SHOWY dancing BUT David knew his own reasons to dance (I like dancing) (It makes me express my joy and my freedom to move and enjoy the music I hear).
4) I would agree the some PLAYERS would like to be seen and admired. Those who SING or PLAY music think they are VERY important during church service (Is it true?) But, as I have seen in some churches, those players are hidden behing a shade or curtains (just to avoid being showy, to hinder some selfcenterness) so, id I had to play or sing in a church like that, I´ll be glad to hide my face and my vanity, just for the sake to move my brethens into another level of WORSHIPPING GOD.
5) Have you ever attended a concert? Those go have gone feel what they feel and, if we go to heaven, music and angelic voices would be raised so, will your destroy instruments? Will you kill the music that stirs people to seek GOD by attending such services? I do agree Christians Churches aren´t a social CLUB, not a theater and certainly not a rock concert, but I have like PETRA, I like TFK and a couple of Christian musician who play well, instead of listeneing to the EROTIC SALSA I absolutely hate and, if it be taken to church, I would burn my ears...
Jesus said: "LOVE GOD with ALL your heart". LOVE is the command! It has to do with GOD and also with people... If your are married, you surely know what your spouse like to hear sung. There is music in a heart who is in love. A joyful heart is noisy, by itself and, when singing to GOD (a spiritual being who is not selfish and selcentered like we all human are) he surely hear more than we can hear, noy matter it be a noise or music. Why Psalms were written to use INSTRUMENST along with VOICES?
It is not a SIN, except for you an others. Just imagine Jesus or GOD acting like those Pharisees Jesus faced and criticized.
It is not a SIN, except for you an others. Just imagine Jesus or GOD acting like those Pharisees Jesus faced and criticized.
you're missing both the context of my post and of the scripture. the phrase "ἐὰν ποιῆτε" in colossians 3:23 means "whatever you do" as does the phrase "πᾶν ὅ τι ἂν ποιῆτε" in 3:17. Paul is not giving the church at Colossi an exhaustive list of what is permissible action. if he were, he wouldn't say "and whatever it is you do, do it as though for the Lord."
look at v.16 and 17 again:
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
he says whatever you do in word or in deed - with your mouth or with your hands. what part of communicating by psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your heart is done with your hands?
look at the context of the whole chapter. look at v.18-22 -- Paul encourages husbands and wives and children to act honorably toward each other, and then slaves and masters too - that's not an exhaustive list of the situations people could find themselves in. then in v.23 -- again, whatever you do he says, do it as though to the Lord.
whatever you do.
serve God with it.
why would Paul say that - if he meant for verse 16 to serve as a very strict, narrow set of permissible actions a person can take in supplication to God?
look at v.16 and 17 again:
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
he says whatever you do in word or in deed - with your mouth or with your hands. what part of communicating by psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your heart is done with your hands?
look at the context of the whole chapter. look at v.18-22 -- Paul encourages husbands and wives and children to act honorably toward each other, and then slaves and masters too - that's not an exhaustive list of the situations people could find themselves in. then in v.23 -- again, whatever you do he says, do it as though to the Lord.
whatever you do.
serve God with it.
why would Paul say that - if he meant for verse 16 to serve as a very strict, narrow set of permissible actions a person can take in supplication to God?
I realize that, and the regulative principle is built on that idea. The NIV interprets it a little differently.
But be that as it may, there were some laws about keeping a special temple fire going, e.g. in Leviticus 6:8-10.
But we are talking about music, not fire. And we are talking about the church, not the temple sacrificial system. Do you use the special temple fire in your animal sacrifices at church..... I didn't think so.
What does God do when they started playing musical instruments in the temple and the synagogue? Did anyone die?
And also, why does something that isn't even mentioned get so much attention, but the actual specific commands for church meetings regarding 'every one of you', regarding tongues, prophecies, etc. get ignored or outright disobeyed, while there is so much focus on things that aren't mentioned?
But be that as it may, there were some laws about keeping a special temple fire going, e.g. in Leviticus 6:8-10.
But we are talking about music, not fire. And we are talking about the church, not the temple sacrificial system. Do you use the special temple fire in your animal sacrifices at church..... I didn't think so.
What does God do when they started playing musical instruments in the temple and the synagogue? Did anyone die?
And also, why does something that isn't even mentioned get so much attention, but the actual specific commands for church meetings regarding 'every one of you', regarding tongues, prophecies, etc. get ignored or outright disobeyed, while there is so much focus on things that aren't mentioned?
The Bible doesn't call this 'church' either.
And musical instruments are really expedient, like our microphone.
Where does the Bible say you can do things that God hasn't commanded as long as it is expedient?
In the temple, there was a set way to do the fire, a certain fire to use. Nadab and Abihu didn't do it that way. They did it their own way.
Praising God to the sound of string instruments, etc. is shown to be good in the Psalms. You can't say that for using strange fire in the temple.
Does the building make the worship different than that of those in a house? if it does maybe the building has to much bling taking away from the worship.
When Jesus commissioned them to "go into all the world" did he tell them to use a donkey? a horse? no, he said "go" and today we use what is expedient to "go into all the world" cars, trucks buses, planes and walk, does this change what he said to do?
Mark 16:15 (NKJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
any split from the Lords church does make them a denomination...
They used incense and animal sacrafice in the OT too, why doesn't your assembly do that? is it because that is not pleasing to your assembly like mechanical instrumental music?
There is no record of the NT church ever using mechanical instrumental music in worship to God, it is brought in by man to please man, people forget who the audience really is.[/QUOTE]
But we are talking about music, not fire. And we are talking about the church, not the temple sacrificial system. Do you use the special temple fire in your animal sacrifices at church..... I didn't think so.
The command is to all, look closely :
Colossians 3:16 (NKJV) Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Ephesians 5:19 (NKJV) speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord,
Notice the command is "teaching and admonishing 'one another' " and "speaking to one another"
So if the instrument is for example, a guitar, then every single person must learn to play the guitar "to one another" as you cannot worship for someone else, nor can they worship for you...
You cannot get around this.
what makes the microphone sound? it is the voice behind it, it does not change the message, it does not create the message, the microphone does not move a person like instrumental music.
We are commanded to sing, to sing in a microphone does not change the singing.
When one adds mechanical musical instruments, it distracts, or changes the "singing", it is no longer the "singing" that moves you.
If you add mechanical musical instruments, you add to the word of God.
We are commanded to sing, to sing in a microphone does not change the singing.
When one adds mechanical musical instruments, it distracts, or changes the "singing", it is no longer the "singing" that moves you.
If you add mechanical musical instruments, you add to the word of God.
who said worship is something you only do as a congregation, together in a pretty church building 45 mins a week?
is Ephesians 5 or Colossians 3 giving detailed instructions for weekly gatherings, or a pattern of day-to-day life? read the context of the scripture all this is based on. i don't see why you shouldn't carry the interpretation beyond the walls of a building with a steeple on top of it.
we are the temple now. those whom God has blessed with His grace. 'church service' is wherever you are.
i understand that there are cultural norms and i have no beef with what some congregation may want to do when they meet together for the sake of the conscious of the weaker among them. if someone is devoted to vegetarianism for the sake of the Lord in your church, maybe at the fellowship supper you shouldn't bring a ham, eh? but you shouldn't force the whole congregation to abstain from meat at all times, and you shouldn't cast aspersions over any other church that happens to have a pot roast.
because all meats are clean. because it's what comes out of your mouth, not what goes in. because sin and righteousness arise out of your heart, from the working of your carnal nature and the renewing work of the Holy Ghost. because works don't commend you to God, but faith in His Son.
Jesus & the woman at the well talked about a day when Jerusalem wouldn't be the only place where people could go to worship. this is that time. the temple of the Jerusalem hasn't been replaced by an hundred million Christian "temples" with big stained glass windows and steeples and pews! it's been replaced by the regenerated hearts and minds of His children! how good He is! we're adopted into this glory so undeservedly!
now if we are really walking and talking temples of the Most High God - at what time should we not be in the act of worship?
even writing this post, this is adoration - because i am lifting up the Truth and proclaiming joy in the Lord! i'm sitting around reading this forum because it bears the name of my Savior, and not some other site, because in my mind i am magnifying Christ - in spirit and truth, what you do for the sake of the name of the Lord, that is worship, just as much as singing hymns together, just as much as singing hymns alone in a forest. just as much as an husband & wife devoting themselves to each other in Christ. just as much as a guy in a dead end job doing the best dead-end work he can, because he considers himself an employee of God in whatever it is that is set before him to do.
in everything give thanks, in everything rejoice in the Lord, pray always. not "sunday morning for an hour and maybe wednesday night"
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