Churches of Christ with or without instruments, which is the right way to worship?

[SeaBass]

this is what it looks like when two believers literally speak to each other with spiritual songs, with melody in their hearts, giving thanks to God:

Just two men doing their own thing....."going about to establish their own righteousness" Rom 10:3

 

[posthuman]

Actually what this post resembles is a mockery of Gods word?
There is nothing wrong with musical instruments, as long as they are not used for worship service

did you watch this, or just see the guitar in the still frame and immediately condemn it?

why aren't you speaking to me in psalm & spiritual song, as the scripture commands?

Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, O LORD, my rock and my redeemer.
(Psalm 19:14)

 

[Link]

The point overlooked is that if the boss asked for a Big Mac and you brought him a Big Mac and coffee, then you did NOT do as the boss said.

Yes, he did. It's a matter of basic logic. The boss asked for a Big Mac and got a Big Mac.

There is a problem with the analogy. It would have been more accurate if the boss had told the employee in times past.

"It is good to bring your boss coffee with a Big Mac."

and

"When you buy a Big Mac, it is good to bring your boss coffee."

That would be analogous with certain Psalms.

Following your "logic", anyone can ASSUME anything they want to into the bible.

You are the one assuming. You are assuming an Old Testament principle about the tabernacle applies specifically to church meetings and not the rest of our Christian life.

The Campbells were of Presbyterian background, from Scotland if I remember correctly. John Knox preached on Nadab and Abihu. He compared doing things in the liturgy that weren't specified in scripture to the offering of strange fire. This is a justification for what the Reformed movement calls the Regulative Principle.

But there is a difference between the tabernacle and the church meeting? Do you offer animal sacrifices at church? Do you have special places that only descendants of Aaron may enter? Regarding the tabernacle, God told Moses "And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount." (Exodus 25:40.)

But where did He say that regarding their holy convocations, regarding what would become the synagogue, or the reading of the law that Ezra did? There are references to the 'church' in the wilderness. The 'church' is the ekklesia, the assembly. The assembly in the Old Testament, and the 'ekklesia' in the Septuigint does not correspond with the tabernacle.

And if the Old Testament has been abrogated, as you seem to believe, then you shouldn't be drawing on Nadab and Abihu for how to interpret scripture.

Where is your Biblical authorization for saying that it is a sin to do something in church that is not specifically authorized in scripture? You allow things outside of church that aren't authorized in scripture (e.g. the use of electricity, the use of Internet for Bible study, etc.) You also allow for many things in church that are not specified in scripture as long as they don't contradict one of your traditions, as the use of musical instruments does.

Also, I suspect that while you make much of departing from the 'pattern' when it comes to musical instruments since they are not specified in certain texs, that you probably think little of totally ignoring the actual commandments of the Lord for church gatherings. I Corinthians 14:26 commands to 'Let all things be done unto edifying." What things? "very one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation." The verses that follow make it clear that speaking in tongues may be done in church and give commands regarding their interpretation.

The passage gives specific commands regarding prophesying in church. It commands "Let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge." It commands for the first to "hold his peace" if another sitting by receives a revelation. It instructs us that 'ye may all prophesy one by one...."

Of course, cessationist theology is no excuse for disobedience. Disbelief of scriptures teaching is no excuse for not believing it. But even as a cessationist, one should believe that the noncessationist aspects of the commandments of the Lord in the passage still apply. Do you allow that regular folks 'in the pew' can stand and sing a solo or give a teaching in the church meeting, or even someone else's revelation (from the scripture)?

It seems really messed up to me when people say "This is forbidden in church because New Testament scriptures don't mention it. Ignore the Old Testament." But then they think nothing of ignoring and disobeying the direct commands of New Testament scripture for church meetings, instead relying on Protestant tradition.

What the Reformed movement did was take aspects of the Roman Catholic liturgy and modify it into a church service based on whether elements of it could be backed up with scripture. That is different from going back to the scriptures and really see what the Bible teaches a church meeting is to be like and doing that. Like it or not, your movement is very much influenced by Reformed culture and theological ideas, though it differs in regard to doctrines related to water baptism.

 

[Link]

Just two men doing their own thing....."going about to establish their own righteousness" Rom 10:3

That can also take the form of taking bits and pieces of what God has revealed, doing the parts they like, and rejecting the rest. For example, ignoring the Psalms and I Corinthians 14.

 

[posthuman]

Just two men doing their own thing....."going about to establish their own righteousness" Rom 10:3

how about if you take Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16 as literal and exclusive commands for patterns of communication, you start obeying it, and speaking with me in psalm and song, magnifying God, and not condemning the praise another offers up?

O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
(Psalm 51:5)

God is good, and His requirement is not burdensome!

 

[posthuman]

There is nothing wrong with musical instruments, as long as they are not used for worship service

what then is the righteous purpose of anything if not to glorify God?

All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee;
they shall sing to thy name
(Psalm 66:4)

 

[posthuman]

how can we say we are commanded to speak & sing to one another in psalms, and in the same breath say the psalms are to be ignored?

All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal.
(Psalm 119:60)

 

[Jabberjaw]

what then is the righteous purpose of anything if not to glorify God?

All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee;
they shall sing to thy name
(Psalm 66:4)

 John 14:21 (NKJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."

His command is to sing in worship, not play

 

[Jabberjaw]

how can we say we are commanded to speak & sing to one another in psalms, and in the same breath say the psalms are to be ignored?

All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal.
(Psalm 119:60)

I challenge you to play the Psalm you just quoted.

 

[posthuman]

I challenge you to play the Psalm you just quoted.

♪ All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal. ♫

 

[SeaBass]

Yes, he did. It's a matter of basic logic. The boss asked for a Big Mac and got a Big Mac.

There is a problem with the analogy. It would have been more accurate if the boss had told the employee in times past.

"It is good to bring your boss coffee with a Big Mac."

and

"When you buy a Big Mac, it is good to bring your boss coffee."

That would be analogous with certain Psalms.

When God command gopher wood to build the ark, could Noah use gopher wood and oak yet still do what God said? No. Noah would have CHANGED what God said by ADDING to what God said just like ADDING to an order is CHANGING the order.

You are the one assuming. You are assuming an Old Testament principle about the tabernacle applies specifically to church meetings and not the rest of our Christian life.

Rom 14 was being twisted essentially into saying that what anyone's conscience says for them to do is alright. So what ever you conscience ASSUMES would be right. Yet in that context Paul is dealing with matters of opinions NOT matter of law/doctrine.

Rom 14:1 "Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations"

2 Jn 1:10 "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:"

In Rom 14:1 Paul did not say this weak brother was in docrtinal error but receive him anyway and do not dispute him. That idea is assumed in to the passage. Doctrinal errors are NOT to be received.

The Campbells were of Presbyterian background, from Scotland if I remember correctly. John Knox preached on Nadab and Abihu. He compared doing things in the liturgy that weren't specified in scripture to the offering of strange fire. This is a justification for what the Reformed movement calls the Regulative Principle.

But there is a difference between the tabernacle and the church meeting? Do you offer animal sacrifices at church? Do you have special places that only descendants of Aaron may enter? Regarding the tabernacle, God told Moses "And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount." (Exodus 25:40.)

But where did He say that regarding their holy convocations, regarding what would become the synagogue, or the reading of the law that Ezra did? There are references to the 'church' in the wilderness. The 'church' is the ekklesia, the assembly. The assembly in the Old Testament, and the 'ekklesia' in the Septuigint does not correspond with the tabernacle.

And if the Old Testament has been abrogated, as you seem to believe, then you shouldn't be drawing on Nadab and Abihu for how to interpret scripture.

I have not drawn on Nadab and Abihu. Yet even though the OT was permanently taken away by Christ, Col 2:14; Heb 10:9 we can still learn from their examples "Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." 1 Cor 10:11. People who disobey God today will be punished as those who disobeyed back then.

Where is your Biblical authorization for saying that it is a sin to do something in church that is not specifically authorized in scripture? You allow things outside of church that aren't authorized in scripture (e.g. the use of electricity, the use of Internet for Bible study, etc.) You also allow for many things in church that are not specified in scripture as long as they don't contradict one of your traditions, as the use of musical instruments does.

Not doing as God say is sin/disobedience/unrighteousness. Sure I can choose to disobey God but it will come with a price I do not want to have to pay in being eternally lost.

Col 3:17 "And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him."

"In the name of the Lord Jesus" means by His authority. WHere do men get their authority to think they can worship God anyway they so choose?

The "electricity" and "internet" is a failed argument already used mulitple times in this thread.

In Mt 28:19,20 Jesus commanded his disciples to go into all the world and teach. Since in this context Jesus did not authorize a specific mode of transportation/communication, then how were the disciple to go and teach?

Please answer this question, then we can talk about matter of authority and expediency.

Also, I suspect that while you make much of departing from the 'pattern' when it comes to musical instruments since they are not specified in certain texs, that you probably think little of totally ignoring the actual commandments of the Lord for church gatherings. I Corinthians 14:26 commands to 'Let all things be done unto edifying." What things? "very one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation." The verses that follow make it clear that speaking in tongues may be done in church and give commands regarding their interpretation.


The passage gives specific commands regarding prophesying in church. It commands "Let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge." It commands for the first to "hold his peace" if another sitting by receives a revelation. It instructs us that 'ye may all prophesy one by one...."

Of course, cessationist theology is no excuse for disobedience. Disbelief of scriptures teaching is no excuse for not believing it. But even as a cessationist, one should believe that the noncessationist aspects of the commandments of the Lord in the passage still apply. Do you allow that regular folks 'in the pew' can stand and sing a solo or give a teaching in the church meeting, or even someone else's revelation (from the scripture)?

The miraculous has ceased. No one today can speak in tongues as the apostles did in Acts 2.

I have personally witnessed their inablity to do the things they claim.

It seems really messed up to me when people say "This is forbidden in church because New Testament scriptures don't mention it. Ignore the Old Testament." But then they think nothing of ignoring and disobeying the direct commands of New Testament scripture for church meetings, instead relying on Protestant tradition.

What the Reformed movement did was take aspects of the Roman Catholic liturgy and modify it into a church service based on whether elements of it could be backed up with scripture. That is different from going back to the scriptures and really see what the Bible teaches a church meeting is to be like and doing that. Like it or not, your movement is very much influenced by Reformed culture and theological ideas, though it differs in regard to doctrines related to water baptism.

Should people ignore Col 2;14, Heb 10:9 and other verses they say the OT was permanetly taken away and replaced by Christ's NT law? Why aren't those that claim it has not been taken away following every "jot and tittle" of it?


YOu post "...modify it into a church service based on whether elements of it could be backed up with scripture"

You are implying worship activity does NOT have to backed up with scripture? Jn 4:23,24 the true worshipper worships "in truth" God's word is truth, Jn 17:17, so true worship is according to scripture. God did not leave how worship is to be conducted up to the opinions of men.

 

[Jabberjaw]

how can we say we are commanded to speak & sing to one another in psalms, and in the same breath say the psalms are to be ignored?

All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal.
(Psalm 119:60)

I challenge you to play the Psalm you just quoted.

♪ All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal. ♫

I rest my case.

 

[posthuman]

dear Seabass, if you are commanded to speak & sing with psalms and hymns, why haven't you quoted a single one?
is today not an appropriate day to worship the Lord?

Every day I will bless you and praise your name forever and ever.
(Psalm 145:2)

Set a guard, O LORD, over my mouth; keep watch over the door of my lips!
(Psalm 141:3)

 

[posthuman]

Psalm 95

1​

Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.

2​

Let us come before him with thanksgiving and extol him with music and song.

3​

For the LORD is the great God, the great King above all gods.

4​

In his hand are the depths of the earth, and the mountain peaks belong to him.

5​

The sea is his, for he made it, and his hands formed the dry land.

6​

Come, let us bow down in worship, let us kneel before the LORD our Maker;

7​

for he is our God and we are the people of his pasture, the flock under his care. Today, if you hear his voice,

8​

do not harden your hearts as you did at Meribah, as you did that day at Massah in the desert,

9​

where your fathers tested and tried me, though they had seen what I did.

10​

For forty years I was angry with that generation; I said, "They are a people whose hearts go astray, and they have not known my ways."

11​

So I declared on oath in my anger, "They shall never enter my rest."

 

[SeaBass]

That can also take the form of taking bits and pieces of what God has revealed, doing the parts they like, and rejecting the rest. For example, ignoring the Psalms and I Corinthians 14.

God reveals to men thorugh His word, the bible and not separate and apart from that word.

Psalms is of the OT taken out of they way by Christ, Col 2:14. (By the way , do you worship God as David did in Psa 66:13-15?)

1 Cor 14 says nothing about me, or any else today, speaking with tongues. That idea is assumed into the text.

 

[posthuman]

Psalms is of the OT taken out of they way by Christ, Col 2:14.

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness
(2 Timothy 3:16)

He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
(Luke 24:44)

Give thanks to the LORD with the lyre; make melody to him with the harp of ten strings!
(Psalm 33:2)

Forever, O LORD, your word is firmly fixed in the heavens.
(Psalm 119:89)

 

[LT]

Interesting approach, if it feels good it is from God and you can do it,and hide it from others, i need to be taught more in this matter care to enlighten me more on this concept? seems its talking about judging others not keeping secrets. John 3:20For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.". so i am a little confused.when God told Moses in Leviticus to sacrifice a bull can you imagine how long and how big of a burden it would have been for Moses to go through the ENTIRE animal kingdom sacrificing everything that God didn't say man couldn't sacrifice? "if it feel good its from God so do it" philosophy seems like a dangerous doctrine to me. and seems contrary to scripture.

If you are confused, then you didn't read Romans 14. If you want to continue in confusion, then continue to neglect the reading of the Word.

 

[posthuman]

I rest my case.

just because you didn't hear it doesn't mean i didn't sing it. i did, and i tapped my foot and played a rhythm with my hands at the same time.

thanks for the suggestion! doing that makes my heart glad!

♫ all your words are true,
your righteous laws, eternal ♫

 

[SeaBass]

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness
(2 Timothy 3:16)

He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
(Luke 24:44)

Give thanks to the LORD with the lyre; make melody to him with the harp of ten strings!
(Psalm 33:2)

Forever, O LORD, your word is firmly fixed in the heavens.
(Psalm 119:89)

2 Tim 2:15 when one "rightly divides" the word of truth he will learn that "make thee an ark of gopher wood" does not apply him no more than any of the OT laws.

Psa 66:13-15, do you worship with burning incense and animal sacrifices?

 

[posthuman]

Psa 66:13-15, do you worship with burn incesnes and animal sacrifices?

yes!

the prayers of the saints are incense
and my body is a living sacrifice!

May my prayer be set before you like incense;
may the lifting up of my hands be like the evening sacrifice.
(Psalm 141:2)