Salvation Not Possible Without Works
- Thread starter SeaBass
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K
I don't recall God needing our help when he created the Earth nor when He told the ocean to stop here. You got it backwards, we need God, He don't need us. In fact God told Moses that He was going to destroy Israel and make a nation from Moses Seed and Moses ask Him to repent and He did. He don't need our help. It is not by (human) power nor by ( human) might, but by My Spirit saith the Lord. We need His help and He don't need ours.
You almost got that one right.
Faith is Made available to all men, but each individual MUST open the door to his own heart and invite Christ in:
Revelation 3:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
Faith is Made available to all men, but each individual MUST open the door to his own heart and invite Christ in:
Revelation 3:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
Somewhere in what I stated you must have been misled. I have never stated that baptism is NOT about our spiritual rebirth. Baptism regenerates the relationship man lost due to the sin and condemnation of Adam. Which is why it is called "regenerative" as well.
You also misunderstood my question regarding being born of water, namely, what the disagreement is, that the water pertains to our natural birth, which it does not.
You also misunderstood my question regarding being born of water, namely, what the disagreement is, that the water pertains to our natural birth, which it does not.
That depends on which aspect of our salvation your are referencing. It is about what Christ did for us, then man has no imput whatsoever. However, if it is about man's response, then it is all about man. God created man for a reason, a purpose, which has never changed. If God is going to save man unilaterally as an indivudual then He will save everyone, since that is His desire. However, God created man free with a rational soul. God needs man's help since that is how and why we were created.
K
Where does faith come from, faith comes from God and every man has faith. Yes as I said, faith must be acted upon. But why does God need us to act on the faith He gave us. He doesn't, He wants us too, but He doesn't need us too. It's not going to effect Him either way. It only effects us as we need Him.
Works are very important, but it is never the "works of the law" but works of faith that is relevant here.
As to being made righteous, all men were made righteous by Christ. That is what II Cor 5:18-19, or Rom 3:23-25, or Rom 5:18, Or I Cor 15:22 is stating, as well as Rom 5:6-10 and some others as well.
However, once again, respective of our individual salvation through faith, is is all conditioned on works and we become, are imparted righteousness by Christ when we do righteous things I John 3:7. God does not make one righteous without the help of man, respective of our walk of faith.
As to being made righteous, all men were made righteous by Christ. That is what II Cor 5:18-19, or Rom 3:23-25, or Rom 5:18, Or I Cor 15:22 is stating, as well as Rom 5:6-10 and some others as well.
However, once again, respective of our individual salvation through faith, is is all conditioned on works and we become, are imparted righteousness by Christ when we do righteous things I John 3:7. God does not make one righteous without the help of man, respective of our walk of faith.
K
No, no, no, the works that we do are a result of our faith in the cross( fruit). The cross enables the Holy Spirit to work in us and through us and not of our own. Yes we yield to urging of the Holy Spirit. But, if we look at our works as it was our own, The Spirit backs off and we are on our own and we fail. It is by My Spirit saith the Lord.
Romans chapter 7 explains in detail.
Romans chapter 7 explains in detail.
I agree with you however, I think it is more than that.
It does affect Him. He created us to be co-workers with Him in this world. He made man free to act on whether one would be united with Him, but God will not save man unilaterally, thus needs man to return the love He so generously gives to us.
He desires that all men come to know Him. He does not desire the destruction of any man. Which is why He works via the Holy Spirit to call all men to repentance.
If not, then He could permit man to be influenced ONLY by Satan and leave His most prized creature, bearing His Image all on his own against the wiles of the devil. It would defeat the whole purpose of creating man and then Christ saving man from death, the power of Satan.
It does affect Him. He created us to be co-workers with Him in this world. He made man free to act on whether one would be united with Him, but God will not save man unilaterally, thus needs man to return the love He so generously gives to us.
He desires that all men come to know Him. He does not desire the destruction of any man. Which is why He works via the Holy Spirit to call all men to repentance.
If not, then He could permit man to be influenced ONLY by Satan and leave His most prized creature, bearing His Image all on his own against the wiles of the devil. It would defeat the whole purpose of creating man and then Christ saving man from death, the power of Satan.
Don't disagree with you. However, I never stated man works alone. But it is OUR works. We will give an account of OUR works. We are not saved through faith but the works of the Holy Spirit.
When we quench the Holy Spirit, or permit Satan to sway us away from Christ, then we are on our own and we have separated ourselves from Christ.
When we quench the Holy Spirit, or permit Satan to sway us away from Christ, then we are on our own and we have separated ourselves from Christ.
T
@Cassian
Hello sir.
God does need our cooperation in order for us to be saved. The Almighty is full of infinite graces which he readily dispenses to mankind when they have a mindset which encourages them to accept the graces given by God and thank him for them.
God can't save us if we don't bother to try and save ourselves. He needs us to draw near to him so he can draw near to us.
Is that the point you're trying to make, sir?
Hello sir.
God does need our cooperation in order for us to be saved. The Almighty is full of infinite graces which he readily dispenses to mankind when they have a mindset which encourages them to accept the graces given by God and thank him for them.
God can't save us if we don't bother to try and save ourselves. He needs us to draw near to him so he can draw near to us.
Is that the point you're trying to make, sir?
Again, I disagree. You are right that He chose to work with man within His universe.
It is not a matter of we not deserving it, but that for two reasons, Christ could not permit Satan to be permanently the ruler in this world. Without getting into the reasons why He permitted Satan to take man captive by death, theologically, or anthropomorphically, God thought it quite unjust that all men were condemned to death by one man's one sin. God saved the world through Christ so that every single human being could make the same free choice that Adam did relative to his relationship or union with God. Which is why God overlooked man's sin and sent His Son to reconcile the world back to Him, Rom 5;6-10, while we were still sinners. II Cor 5:18-19 states it even better, He did not impute our tresspasses to us, but reconciled the world to God.
Consequently God is calling all men so that man is the one who decides his own eternal state of whether he will be WITH Christ or APART from Christ. Those that deserve punishment are those that reject Him after God works directly with every human being so that man cannot make God the cause of his punishment.
It is not a matter of we not deserving it, but that for two reasons, Christ could not permit Satan to be permanently the ruler in this world. Without getting into the reasons why He permitted Satan to take man captive by death, theologically, or anthropomorphically, God thought it quite unjust that all men were condemned to death by one man's one sin. God saved the world through Christ so that every single human being could make the same free choice that Adam did relative to his relationship or union with God. Which is why God overlooked man's sin and sent His Son to reconcile the world back to Him, Rom 5;6-10, while we were still sinners. II Cor 5:18-19 states it even better, He did not impute our tresspasses to us, but reconciled the world to God.
Consequently God is calling all men so that man is the one who decides his own eternal state of whether he will be WITH Christ or APART from Christ. Those that deserve punishment are those that reject Him after God works directly with every human being so that man cannot make God the cause of his punishment.
K
I love you brother, but God does not need man to abolish satan. Satan Judgement has already been announced, it just hasn't come to pass as of yet and God uses him to test the faith of His saints. Not that He doesn't already know, but rather to increase our faith, when we go through hard times and God brings us through our faith is increased and we trust Him more. Jesus is God in the flesh and that man defeated any right or claim that satan on the earth. He did it and not us. They way He chose to do it.