SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS!

[Vaudeville]

Did you read the Bible?

"Inasmuch as you did it to them, you have done it to me" ... what does that mean?

it means he loves his church (brothers and sisters). as a man loves his wife. inasmuch as you did it to my wife you did it to me. if someone finds my wife on the sidewalk mugged, beaten and naked and tells her God bless you and walks away, that man will know my wrath.

and yet even on this forum i see people spewing derision about the christian church, separating themselves from it, forming sects, ashamed to be called christians.

 

[Vaudeville]

Lol you know what? Im going to just stop. No matter how many Bible verses I post, no matter what I say, you choose not to Believe. So go ahead, don't believe.

I'm going to listen to Titus 3:9-11 on this issue.

Besides, I need to find a job and do some Bible study.

Seriously though, I have shown you the Bible quotes and how it makes sense. You want to keep arguing, go ahead. I've got too much to do even though I just finished Finals.

However, it honestly appears at times that you purposely are ignorant to what the context of the verses say, it's scarey really.

are you talking to me?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1) Do research on the KJV. Best translation to ever exist, and my Bible itself that I own is over 100 years old. Also, I know how to read it.

I used the KJV for the first 25 years of my christian life.
It is not the best interpretation out there. it has meny issues just like they all do.

2) Seriously? Okay, first off cite your position on the greek text, second of all, explain to me how professional linguistics of the 1600s got it wrong but you got it right, and 3rdly are you sure it means faith is in the past or that grace was given in the past? BIg difference, Also, Greek itself isnt understood the same way as English. However, I'd love to see your answer to this. Especially when you know how many genius scolars there were working on the KJV compared to today's versions.

been there done that. again saved is in the perfect tense.

no the people did not get it wrong, You are misreading what they wrote. The english of there day does not mean what it does today,m Or have you not figured that out yet?

By grace are ye SAVED (notice they used the past tense form, not a future tense form,)by Grace.
They also prove it by what they followed it up with. "lest any man should boast" which means to be proud, to take credit. to claim they earned it) a fact you evidently do not understand.

They also go on further to prove this. By saying in verse 10.

"for we are his workmanship"

Who are we? We are those who have been SAVED "PERFECT TENSE" By Faith apart from works.

Your whole context crumbles and falls to peaces. No matter what version you use.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, that would be in context of the sentence Grace. Meaning the sacrifice for Grace, Jesus on the cross, was in the past. Which still makes sense in the context of the Bible.

No sorry my friend.

The word SAVED is in the perfect tense. You can not twist it and say this is refering to grace. that is called twisting the word of God. And trying to force the word of God to fit your belief

the word Grace is a known, It is the act by which the perfect verb "saved" was obtained.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Did you read the Bible?

"Inasmuch as you did it to them, you have done it to me" ... what does that mean?

it means what I said it means.

These were legalistic jews who tried to get to God through thier works (casting out demons, Prophesying, Doing many mighty works as tje jews did in their religious traditions and cermonies) but they did not ever come to a personal relationship with God because they trusted in their works, not their faith in Christ.

How do we know this?

1. As all legalists do. They are great at the mightly commands and religious ceremony and tradition. and are PROUD OF IT
2. Yet they are sinners, They are hypocrites. They do not serve others (which is th epoint Christ was making) it is ALL ABOUT SELF. AND WHAT CAN I GAIN.. not about others.

They did not live this life, BECAUSE THEY DID NOT KNOW CHRIST. Why? THEY WERE NEVER SAVED.

This is why Jesus said, I NEVER KNEW YOU, Depart, you who PRACTOICE LAWLESSNESS. He was MOCKING THEM (as he usually did) WHo thought they were SO RIGHTOUES in their OBEDIENCE TO what they percieved to be the laws and commands of God. THEY DID NOT REALISE, THEY WERE STILL SINNERS. WHo did not DESERVE ANYTHING,

as I said earlier,

they stood in front of God on THEIR OWN MERIT, and it failed them..

 

[Cassian]

No, that would be in context of the sentence Grace. Meaning the sacrifice for Grace, Jesus on the cross, was in the past. Which still makes sense in the context of the Bible.

If I may shed some light on this context of Eph 1-10.
No matter how good your Greek might be, if you have the incorrect theology it still will not make sense. After all the Church only had Greek for the first 900 years of its existence and it never had this problem that is being exhibited here.

The context is about what Christ did and for what purpose. Paul starts out with what the world was like before Christ came and is describing the world or mankind. Vs 5 is the conclusion of the general aspect where he states that mankind was saved by Grace. This is referencing the Gift of salvation that was given to every human being, that is being saved from death and sin.
Then Paul makes a transition to specifically speak of believers who will benefit from this gift which includes being saved through faith. We do not need to duplicate the work of Christ in overcoming death and sin. But the verse that gets chopped off is vs 10, where it clearly states that we shall do the works we were created to do. God has a purpose in mind in creating us, then when man lost life, Christ restored life to mankind so that God and man could be reunited in a relationship that requires man to work with God. That work becomes meaningless unless we do it through faith. The works are the content of our faith. You can say one has faith all day long, but if there is no fruit, no evidence, then it is meaningless. So works definitely are necessary for salvation but they MUST be done through faith.

Some have difficulty with Titus 3:5 as well. First, Christ is the one that saves us whether first by Himself through the Cross and resurrection or when He requires our cooperation. This text utilizes the three basics.
First, Christ saving mankind from death and sin, so that man could be joined which we do by baptism (washing) and then receive the Holy Spirit. That puts one into Christ and now the actual salvation of each person begins to take place.
There are several in this thread that assume Christ saved one unto a relationship, past tense. He saved us from death and sin so that man could be joined in a relationship with Christ. That relationship is as free as it was for Adam in the beginning. He had the same command we do. Love and obey, or suffer consequences.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Lol you know what? Im going to just stop. No matter how many Bible verses I post, no matter what I say, you choose not to Believe. So go ahead, don't believe.

I'm going to listen to Titus 3:9-11 on this issue.

Besides, I need to find a job and do some Bible study.

Seriously though, I have shown you the Bible quotes and how it makes sense. You want to keep arguing, go ahead. I've got too much to do even though I just finished Finals.

However, it honestly appears at times that you purposely are ignorant to what the context of the verses say, it's scarey really.

Thats ok,

I will listen to tius 3 5 on this issue.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Not by my good deeds, But by HIS MERCY (GRACE) HE SAVED ME (AGAIN PAST TENSE, actuall aorist tense, an act which was done in past, and still in effect today)

as for 3: 9.

We are not discussin the law. So your context is out there again.. So be it.. Yet further proof you need to study more.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

First of all there is only one Gospel, and that is the gospel of Christ. Romans 1:16; Acts 14:7. The book of Hebrews goes into great detail about the insufficiency of animal blood to take away sins, only Christ could do that. Our salvation has always been conditional. See I John I:7-9

Alli, I need to correct something I said earlier.

There are actually four Gospels in the New Testament.


The Gospel of the Kingdom which was preached by John the Baptist, The Lord Jesus and His Disciples during His Earthly ministry, and that will be preached by Elijah (one of the two witnesses) in the time of Jacob's trouble, as well as by the 144,000 sealed Jews of the twelve tribes of Israel. This Gospel of the Kingdom is not the same Gospel as the Everlasting Gospel.


The Gospel of the Kingdom is for a witness to all the world in the time of Jacob's trouble. And this Gospel will bring the announcement that the time has come to set up the Kingdom of the Messiah. This Gospel will also be bring the great proclamation of the glorious Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ as KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS to occupy the Throne of David. And to regather Israel to the Promised Land.


The Everlasting Gospel which is preached by the Angel (Rev. 14:6), is about Judgment. Therefore this Gospel is different from the Gospel of the Kingdom.

And then the fourth Gospel referenced in the New Testament is the Gospel which Paul warned about, which is called "Another Gospel" (See Gal. 1:6-12; 2 Cor. 11:4). And this gospel is a perversion of the true Gospel.


So these are the Four Gospels mentioned and referenced in the New Testament:


1) The Gospel of the Grace of God (Acts 20:24) which was delivered to Paul, and which Paul referred to as his Gospel (Rom. 2:16; Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 2:8). This Gospel of the Grace of God is the Gospel we preach today in the Church Age (1 Cor. 15:1-6).


2) The Gospel of the Kingdom (Matt. 4:23; 9:35; 24:14) which John the Baptist preached first to Israel, the when Jesus came, He preached this Gospel also to Israel along with His twelve chosen Disciples. This Gospel is to bring the glad tidings that God has purposed to set up a Messianic, Jewish Kingdom on this Earth in which Jesus Christ of the seed of David will reign as prophesied in the Gospel account of Luke 1:32-33. And again, this very Gospel will also be preached in the time of Jacob's trouble by Elijah, the 144,000 sealed Jews to all the world for a witness that the Messiah and His Kingdom is soon coming.


3) The Everlasting Gospel (Rev. 14:6) which will only be preached by the Angel (see Rev. 14:6). In fact; this is the only Gospel which an Angel is commisioned to preach. And while the Gospel of the Kingdom is glad tidings about the coming Messianic Kingdom of Christ, the everlasting Gospel will be the glad tidings to Israel, assuring the that their turmoil, distress, and trouble will soon end with the Judgment and Destruction of the anitchrist and false prophet.


4) And again, the fourth gospel mentioned in the New Testament, is what Paul refers to as "another gospel" (2 Cor. 11:4 & Gal. 1:6) which of course is not another, as it is simply a perversion of the true Gospel which Paul refutes and renounces. And this false gospel is preached today by false ministers. Ministers of Satan love to preach this 'gospel' because it adds works to the plan of salvation. And it's dangerous and false system which teaches that faith alone is not enough for salvation.

 

[Cassian]

Thats ok,

I will listen to tius 3 5 on this issue.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Not by my good deeds, But by HIS MERCY (GRACE) HE SAVED ME (AGAIN PAST TENSE, actuall aorist tense, an act which was done in past, and still in effect today)

as for 3: 9.

We are not discussin the law. So your context is out there again.. So be it.. Yet further proof you need to study more.

Speaking of Titus 3:5 which you missed by a mile as well. That first phrase is speaking of the Gift of salvation Christ gave to every single human being, that is saved by grace, saved from death and sin which man could not do for himself, namely through the works of the law. That phrase has NOTHING to do with our relationship directly, but made it possible which the next two phrases state how we enter and who helps us.

If in doubt about the Gift of salvation to all men, Rom 5:14 tells us it is a Gift, and Rom 5:18 tells you what the gift is, LIFE. I Cor 15:22 repeats the equation again. Rom 5:6-10, II Cor 5:18-19, Rom 3:23-25, Col 1:20, Heb 2:14, II Tim 1:10 all attest to this gift of life through His Incarnation and Resurrection. In fact He saved the world which is why He is called the Savior of the world, John 4:42, I John 4:14. Any text that explains the resurrection shows that Christ gave life to the world, otherwise there could be no resurrection, John 6:39, acts 24:15, Rev 20:13, I Cor 15:12-21.

1f one does not understand the fall, how could one possibly understand how one is saved from the fall.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Speaking of Titus 3:5 which you missed by a mile as well. That first phrase is speaking of the Gift of salvation Christ gave to every single human being, that is saved by grace, saved from death and sin which man could not do for himself, namely through the works of the law. That phrase has NOTHING to do with our relationship directly, but made it possible which the next two phrases state how we enter and who helps us.

Please again take your universalist everyone is saved heresy someplace else.

Paul is talking to christians only (namely titus) not to the whole world.

He says clearly, WE HAVE BEEN SAVED, By Gods mercy.

THROUGH the act of God the HOLY SPIRIT washing and renewing us.

He did not do this to the whole world. Only to those who HE SAVED.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

No, there is one Gospel, which means "good news". The good news of God sending His only son to die for our sins.

There are four Gospels. NOT just one.

Study your Bible. And believe what it teaches.

No, our salvation is conditional. Read Ist John again. It says IF we walk in the light, the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. The Implication is if we don't walk in the light, His blood will not cleanse us.

The context is fellowship. Read the whole passage.

The cleansing from sin is for fellowship. The main purpose and reason why a Christian should confess their sins is so that they will maintain good fellowship with the Lord while on this Earth.

When one gets saved, all their sins have been paid for and taken away. And they are given a new nature. They become a new creature in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17).

But because the Christian still has an old nature (the flesh), at times the Christian may fall into sin, and so these sins which a Christian may commit in his life, is what some call the sins of the saints. A sin which a saint commits needs and must be confessed if that born again child of God wants to maintain good, close and intimate fellowship with God the Father while on this earth, and also with other belivers.

 

[Vaudeville]

First, Christ is the one that saves us whether first by Himself through the Cross and resurrection or when He requires our cooperation. This text utilizes the three basics.

how cooperative were you while you were dead in trespasses and sins and at war with God?

First, Christ saving mankind from death and sin, so that man could be joined which we do by baptism (washing) and then receive the Holy Spirit. That puts one into Christ and now the actual salvation of each person begins to take place.

so you have people in Christ, but not saved. is that right?

There are several in this thread that assume Christ saved one unto a relationship, past tense. He saved us from death and sin so that man could be joined in a relationship with Christ.

he saved us so we could enter the Father's presence in eternity. a relationship with Christ is a given for all who are taught by God the Father.

John 6
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Every man therefore that hath heard and hath learned from the Father cometh unto Me.

John 6
37 All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me, and him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out.

That relationship is as free as it was for Adam in the beginning. He had the same command we do. Love and obey, or suffer consequences.

that relationship still requires a Mediator, which Adam did not require.

 

[BradC]

No, that would be in context of the sentence Grace. Meaning the sacrifice for Grace, Jesus on the cross, was in the past. Which still makes sense in the context of the Bible.

Grace is not an attribute of God, it is the means by which a sinner is saved and not the source of his salvation and it comes through faith. The source of our salvation is in the blood of the cross that was shed by the Son of God. Mercy is God taking away what we deserve and grace is the means by which God gives to man what he does not deserve. The sinner is saved through the mercy and grace of God that comes to him by faith through our Lord Jesus Christ, who obtained eternal redemption for us.

 

[Cassian]

Please again take your universalist everyone is saved heresy someplace else.

Paul is talking to christians only (namely titus) not to the whole world.

He says clearly, WE HAVE BEEN SAVED, By Gods mercy.

THROUGH the act of God the HOLY SPIRIT washing and renewing us.

He did not do this to the whole world. Only to those who HE SAVED.

Your comments shows just how ignorant you are of scripture. What I stated is NOT universalism which I assume you also do not understand Universalism either.

What I stated is Incarnational. So I must assume since you did not understand what I stated, you also do not believe in the Incarnation, at least not the content of it. You might use the word, but have no understanding why Christ needed to be Incarnated and what it accomplished.
You have a lot of study to do on this topic. It is obviously why you do not understand the topic at hand.
Here are some texts that all speak directly to the Incarnation which was to correct the fall of man, the condemnation of death to Adam. Gen 3:19 and confirmed in Rom 5:12.
Heb 2:14-17 explains why Christ needed to be Incarnate, to defeat death the power of Satan. The same death to which Adam was condemned. II Tim 1:10 states this same death that He overcame.
Then in Rom 5:14 it states it is a Gift, the Gift is LIFE to all men Rom 5:18. Paul restates it in I Cor 15:12-22. Also shows that all men will be raised immortal and incorruptible at that resurrection I Cor 15:53.
Paul also states it this way, Christ reconciling the world. II Cor 5:18-19, Rom 3:13-25, Col 1:20, Rom 5:6-10,

I must also asssume that you do not believe in the resurrection of all since that is the result of His Incarnation of giving eternal existance to all men. It is what also makes heaven and hell possible. Without Christ man simply is dissolved by death and returns to dust, Gen 3:19. Even the New Heaven and New Earth is possible because Christ redeemed this world from destruction and death.

That should take you a little while to study. Once you understand salvation, you might better understand our relationship with Christ and what is required of that relationship.

 

[Cassian]

how cooperative were you while you were dead in trespasses and sins and at war with God?

no one is, why is that even relevant. It is why we are being saved first, then enter into a personal relationship with Christ.

so you have people in Christ, but not saved. is that right?

They have taken possession of their salvation. IF they remain faithful they will inherit the promise awaiting for them at the end. I Pet 1:3-5. there is nothing permanent in this life during our walk with God.

he saved us so we could enter the Father's presence in eternity. a relationship with Christ is a given for all who are taught by God the Father.

NO, He is saving you with your cooperation. If you don't continue the relationship you will not have eternal life with Him. Every human being is taught by the Father, but not all learn and listen and act on that instruction.

John 6
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Every man therefore that hath heard and hath learned from the Father cometh unto Me.

Yes, God calls all men, God has equiped all men to have the ability and capability to respond to Him. The difference is how one responds. That is the free choice of man, either accept Christ, or reject Him. The decision of man is a active one, it is not benign. This is why God can be just in meting out the judgement because it is man that has no excuse for not responding to God.

John 6
37 All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me, and him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out.

All men were given to Christ, actually all things were given to Him Col 1:20 and all were redeemed by His Blood. So, all men will have the opportunity to know God, everyone can either accept or reject. God will accept all who come in faith.

that relationship still requires a Mediator, which Adam did not require.

Correct, but then Adam did not have a sinful nature, nor was sin yet in this world. And you think you have some kind of guarantee that you cannot fall. Your theology is a dreamworld.

 

[JaumeJ]

This thread seems to have a very repititious beat........ Jesus, Yeshua, has already answered the OP. I have posted it in reply to more than one reply, yet it seems to fall on deaf ears. I could say something glib, like, "I wonder why?" But, I cannot, because I already know why. The Lord told me. (By the way, the reply is using the Master's words with understanding.)

 

[Vaudeville]

no one is, why is that even relevant. It is why we are being saved first, then enter into a personal relationship with Christ.

you said: First, Christ is the one that saves us whether first by Himself through the Cross and resurrection or when He requires our cooperation.

They have taken possession of their salvation. IF they remain faithful they will inherit the promise awaiting for them at the end. I Pet 1:3-5. there is nothing permanent in this life during our walk with God.

Romans 4
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath reason to glory, but not before God.

Romans 8
30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

NO, He is saving you with your cooperation. If you don't continue the relationship you will not have eternal life with Him. Every human being is taught by the Father, but not all learn and listen and act on that instruction.

John 10
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[a]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Yes, God calls all men, God has equiped all men to have the ability and capability to respond to Him. The difference is how one responds. That is the free choice of man, either accept Christ, or reject Him. The decision of man is a active one, it is not benign. This is why God can be just in meting out the judgement because it is man that has no excuse for not responding to God.

All men were given to Christ, actually all things were given to Him Col 1:20 and all were redeemed by His Blood. So, all men will have the opportunity to know God, everyone can either accept or reject. God will accept all who come in faith.

Acts 13
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the Word of the Lord; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Correct, but then Adam did not have a sinful nature, nor was sin yet in this world. And you think you have some kind of guarantee that you cannot fall. Your theology is a dreamworld.

where did i say that? i have fallen many times.

and you? have you sinned today? what did you do when you sinned? it may be too early, but you will sin today. and what will you do? what provision has been made for you?

 

[Cassian]

Romans 4
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath reason to glory, but not before God.

Yes, he would have, but then we know neither he nor we are justified by works.

Romans 8
30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

How does this help you. He is speaking about those that love God, namely believers. He is giving them encouragement that Christ has not forsaken them. He is not even addressing the fact that they could leave Christ.

John 10
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[a]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Christ keeps His promise, but does man. Can man guarantee HIS FAITH? Find the text that guarantees man's faith. Then you will have made a point.

Acts 13
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the Word of the Lord; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Since you are bringing this verse up, you obviously are Reformed. this text has nothing to so with predestination. It means to be disposed.

where did i say that? i have fallen many times.

and you? have you sinned today? what did you do when you sinned? it may be too early, but you will sin today. and what will you do? what provision has been made for you?

which is actually a mischaracterization again of the topic. We are not speaking about doing a sin. We are speaking about permanently falling from the relationship a person enters by which he is being saved.

 

[Vaudeville]

Yes, he would have, but then we know neither he nor we are justified by works.

How does this help you. He is speaking about those that love God, namely believers. He is giving them encouragement that Christ has not forsaken them. He is not even addressing the fact that they could leave Christ.



Christ keeps His promise, but does man. Can man guarantee HIS FAITH? Find the text that guarantees man's faith. Then you will have made a point.



[/U] Since you are bringing this verse up, you obviously are Reformed. this text has nothing to so with predestination. It means to be disposed.



which is actually a mischaracterization again of the topic. We are not speaking about doing a sin. We are speaking about permanently falling from the relationship a person enters by which he is being saved.

in closing, your entire argument is found here:

"Christ keeps His promise, but does man. Can man guarantee HIS FAITH? Find the text that guarantees man's faith. Then you will have made a point."

your works guarantee your faith, right?

i'll go with Paul, and the Holy Spirit being the guarantee of my inheritance. i received that seal when i heard the word of truth and believed in Christ.

Ephesians 1
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee[a] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,[b] to the praise of his glory.

so long.

 

[Cassian]

in closing, your entire argument is found here:

"Christ keeps His promise, but does man. Can man guarantee HIS FAITH? Find the text that guarantees man's faith. Then you will have made a point."

your works guarantee your faith, right?

i'll go with Paul, and the Holy Spirit being the guarantee of my inheritance. i received that seal when i heard the word of truth and believed in Christ.

Ephesians 1
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee[a] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,[b] to the praise of his glory.

so long.

Which means you have nothing to support your view, nor can refute what scripture actually teaches. The text you quoted clearly states you do not have it, until the end when we will aquire possession of the inheritance.
If God guaranteed your faith, there would be no need for a judgment. You would not need to give an account of your works.