The "blood moon"

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oldhermit said:
The language itself shows us that these images are not to be taken as literal. Just from the natural limitations alone we know that it is not possible for actual stars to fall to the earth or for humanity to survive such catastrophic calamity. If you like we can take a look at how scripture uses the symbolisms and what they signify when they are used.
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We only know humanity could not survive, because humanity says we could not survive...take the natural understanding and science out of the way. Neither of those things have any place in Biblical interpretation, except where you sit.

symbolism interpretation is just another form of allegory to allow the natural mind to understand spiritual things, but we compare spiritual with spiritual....once again you err, because you place the natural understanding above the spiritual.
 
oldhermit said:
Not at all. This thread is intended to examine on judgment figure symbolism.
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I tend to take a literal approach to Scripture unless the context makes it obvious it isn't. I'm not an amillenialist who tends to do a lot of allegorizing. I realize there are different hermeneutical approaches based on different presuppositions and often makes for irreconcilable differences in eschatology and Israel/Church distinctives.
 
crossnote said:
I tend to take a literal approach to Scripture unless the context makes it obvious it isn't. I'm not an amillenialist who tends to do a lot of allegorizing. I realize there are different hermeneutical approaches based on different presuppositions and often makes for irreconcilable differences in eschatology and Israel/Church distinctives.
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I think it is important to appeal to the revealed grammar to understand how scripture conveys these images rather that simply attaching just any definition we want to them. These symbolisms are not unique to John.
 
Can't be bothered to read this. People must stop being so blinkered in just assuming America has the only people involved in prophetic ministry.

Hagee is simply jumping on the band wagon, this squence of eclipses over Israel for 2014/15 has been raised donkeys years ago by a Rabbi . I heard about it years ago from pastor of Harvest family church in Reno on the churches website.

It is quite interesting and of course its just another lets wait and see what happens long term. I doubt this blood moon has anything to do with America.
 
Agricola said:
Can't be bothered to read this. People must stop being so blinkered in just assuming America has the only people involved in prophetic ministry.

Hagee is simply jumping on the band wagon, this squence of eclipses over Israel for 2014/15 has been raised donkeys years ago by a Rabbi . I heard about it years ago from pastor of Harvest family church in Reno on the churches website.

It is quite interesting and of course its just another lets wait and see what happens long term. I doubt this blood moon has anything to do with America.
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You're right it doesn't. According to Mr. Hagee it is the full solar eclipse that happens somewhere in the middle which is supposed to be a biblical sign of judgment on the Gentiles e.g. America. The blood moons are supposed to be a Jewish sign.
Why? Jews follow a lunar and gentiles a solar calendar. Hmm hmm, interesting, that's all.
 
oldhermit said:
I think it is important to appeal to the revealed grammar to understand how scripture conveys these images rather that simply attaching just any definition we want to them. These symbolisms are not unique to John.
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Ok, back to my original question back in post 36...

So what was the actual judgement if ch 6 is 'simply a presentation of symbols offered as judgment figures'?
What was the 'actual' wrath of the Lamb they were hiding from? Symbols?



Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;



And how do you know it was not literal cosmic chaos?
 
crossnote said:
Ok, back to my original question back in post 36...

So what was the actual judgement if ch 6 is 'simply a presentation of symbols offered as judgment figures'?
What was the 'actual' wrath of the Lamb they were hiding from? Symbols?



Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;



And how do you know it was not literal cosmic chaos?
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Well, let's take a look at how this type of language is used in other places in scripture.

It is very important to understand this imagery. All of this imagery is presented in many places in scripture as judgment figures. This is not depicting the actual collapse of the celestial universe or the geographic displacement of islands and mountains. This is language that is chosen to simply show that God is about to bring an end to someone's world. This imagery was always used when God had decided to destroy a nation because of their wickedness. Isaiah used this imagery three times in depicting God's judgment of three different nations.

1. Against ancient Babylon, Isaiah 13:1-13 – 1. “The oracle concerning Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw... Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, cruel, with fury and burning anger, to make the land a desolation; and He will exterminate its sinners from it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises and the moon will not shed its light. Thus I will punish the world for its evil and the wicked for their iniquity; I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud and abase the haughtiness of the ruthless. I will make mortal man scarcer than pure gold and mankind than the gold of Ophir. Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken from its place at the fury of the LORD of hosts in the day of His burning anger.”

2. Against ancient Tyre, Isaiah 23:1 and 24 – “ The oracle concerning Tyre... .” 24:18-23 “Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, and he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake. The earth is broken asunder, the earth is split through, the earth is shaken violently. The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard and it totters like a shack, for its transgression is heavy upon it, and it will fall, never to rise again. So it will happen in that day, that the LORD will punish the host of heaven on high, and the kings of the earth on earth. They will be gathered together like prisoners in the dungeon, and will be confined in prison; And after many days they will be punished. Then the moon will be abashed and the sun ashamed, for the LORD of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and His glory will be before His elders.”

3. Against Edom, Isaiah 34:4-6 – “And all the host of heaven will wear away, and the sky will be rolled up like a scroll; All their hosts will also wither away. As a leaf withers from the vine, or as one withers from the fig tree. For My sword is satiated in heaven, behold it shall descend for judgment upon Edom and upon the people whom I have devoted to destruction. The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is sated with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah and a great slaughter in the land of Edom.”

4. Against Egypt, Ezekiel 32:7-8 – “And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud and the moon will not give its light. All the shining lights in the heavens. I will darken over you and will set darkness on your land, declares the Lord God.”

5. Against Judah, Haggai 2:6-7 and 21 – “For thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘Once more in a little while, I am going to shake the heavens and the earth, the sea also and the dry land. I will shake all the nations; and they will come with the wealth of all nations, and I will fill this house with glory,’ says the LORD of hosts. Verse 21. “Speak to Zerubbabel governor of Judah, saying, I am going to shake the heavens and the earth.”

6. Against Judah and Jerusalem, Joel 2 is also filled with this same symbolist of cosmic chaos depicting God's judgment against the nation.

7. Against Jerusalem, Matthew 24:29-31 – “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.”

8.Again against Israel, Acts 2:19-21 (which Peter quotes from Joel 2) – “And I will grant wonders in the sky above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke. The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come. And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

9. Against the persecuting powers, Revelation 6:12-17 – “I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” Luke 23:28-31 - Jerusalem.

It is important to remember that every time God issued these judgment figures against a nation, this judgment always came to pass soon thereafter in the time of those nations.
 
So the flood was imagery? The fire and brimstone of Sodom was imagey. You can't say always.
 
oldhermit said:
Why would you jump to that conclusion? Those events are shown in scripture to have been actual events.
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I didn't jump I'm asking. After all since they (flood, fire) were not in figurative terms why assume ALL the others were symbolisms?
 
crossnote said:
I didn't jump I'm asking. After all since they (flood, fire) were not in figurative terms why assume ALL the others were symbolisms?
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When God destroyed those nation of which Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Joel spoke did the universe experience these cosmic disruptions as depicted in those pronouncements?
 
oldhermit said:
When God destroyed those nation of which Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Joel spoke did the universe experience these cosmic disruptions as depicted in those pronouncements?
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Take your Ezekiel 32:7-8 quote for example. Did God 'extinguish' Egypt? Is God a liar or are those passages you quoted yet to happen. I choose the latter. That is the irreconcilible difference due to a different hermeneutic approach I spoke of earlier.
So you take most of this stuff symbolically, I take much of it literally.
 
crossnote said:
Take your Ezekiel 32:7-8 quote for example. Did God 'extinguish' Egypt? Is God a liar or are those passages you quoted yet to happen. I choose the latter. That is the irreconcilible difference due to a different hermeneutic approach I spoke of earlier.
So you take most of this stuff symbolically, I take much of it literally.
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Whenever God used this type of language describing the fate of a nation, it was seldom an absolute and utter destruction. Most of these nations after being destroyed, eventually rose to power again. This was certainly true of Judah. God destroyed them and sent them into captivity for 70 years yet, they returned and the nation was rebuilt. Edom was an exception. When God destroyed them he did so utterly and completely. They simply ceased to exist.
 
The blood moons have little significance. I am suprised in how much and how many people believe in the blood moon theory. Are they now saying that we should believe in prophecies outside the Bible because of blood moons? Of course if you say you have the gift of prophecy ( which is the only biblical way) people don't believe you; but if you have a Mayan calander theory or lunar cycle theory all of a sudden people go crazy. A family member of my wife was going to sale us a car. Now she is waiting on the blood moons. My mom wanted me to travel about 900 miles to see her before the blood moons cause it could be the end. I tell them not to worry. Its ridiculous.
 
oldhermit said:
Whenever God used this type of language describing the fate of a nation, it was seldom an absolute and utter destruction. Most of these nations after being destroyed, eventually rose to power again. This was certainly true of Judah. God destroyed them and sent them into captivity for 70 years yet, they returned and the nation was rebuilt. Edom was an exception. When God destroyed them he did so utterly and completely. They simply ceased to exist.
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My last question on this matter. Do you take the following as symbolism?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
 
crossnote said:
My last question on this matter. Do you take the following as symbolism?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
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It depends on how one understands the use of the "Day of the Lord". The "Day of the Lord" and the "coming of the Lord" are used many times to depict the judgment of God on individual nations. If Peter is describing the impending events of the destruction of Jerusalem then I would see this as symbolic language. On the other hand, If Peter is literally speaking of the end of time (and I think he is) then I would suggest the language is quite literal. The Hebrew writer certainly exercises a literal use of this type of language in Hebrews 1:10-12 “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS. THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.” Just as Jesus literally brought the world into existence, he will one day literally bring it to an end.
 
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last night it looked more like a tangerine moon than a blood moon...

...but 'tangerine moon' doesn't sound nearly as spooky and can't possibly sell as many books
 
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