Good Friday and Easter Sunday

[KohenMatt]

but i -don't- criticize passover...you can have your own extrabiblical traditions that you are free to do at passover...i just want people to be -aware- of the fact that they are extrabiblical...

especially if those people who practice extrabiblical passover traditions are hypocritically attacking christians who celebrate extrabiblical christmas and easter holidays...

There is a BIG difference in criticizing those who celebrate a Biblical holiday with some extra-biblical traditions while not criticizing those who a celebrate a holiday that's not even in the Bible at all.

There's a lot more hypocrisy in that. I would hope that everyone who criticizes the celebration of some extra-biblical traditions to hold the EXACT SAME STANDARD to christmas and easter.

 

[SarahM777]

mark 14:12 and luke 22:7 both indicate that jesus' disciples acquired the upper room for the passover seder on the day the passover lambs were sacrificed...

and the source of this 'translator error' article turns out to be an armstrong cultist...among other dubious things i found on that site is the claim that the scapegoat on the day of atonement is satan instead of christ...

Again you still have the problem with Jesus then being arrested,tried,convicted,and being put to death on a HIGH SABBATH. And again Matthew,Mark and Luke then are NOT in agreement with John. John is very precise in what he plainly says. Remember scripture CAN NOT contradict scripture. And also remember John was one of the DISCIPLES THAT PREPARED THE ROOM.

You are correct on the fact that I should have noted the source better,but it does NOT change the fact that he is correct in that in the original manuscripts on Matthew 26:17 both day,and feast of ARE NOT in the texts. Look it up in the Greek Interlinear.

Strong's concordance gives this for the meaning of hemera

2250. hemera hay-mer'-ah feminine (with 5610 implied) of a derivative of hemai (to sit; akin to the base of 1476) meaning tame, i.e. gentle; day, i.e. (literally) the time space between dawn and dark, or the whole 24 hours (but several days were usually reckoned by the Jews as inclusive of the parts of both extremes); figuratively, a period (always defined more or less clearly by the context):--age, + alway, (mid-)day (by day, (-ly)), + for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years.

 

[Vaudeville]

There is a BIG difference in criticizing those who celebrate a Biblical holiday with some extra-biblical traditions while not criticizing those who a celebrate a holiday that's not even in the Bible at all.

There's a lot more hypocrisy in that. I would hope that everyone who criticizes the celebration of some extra-biblical traditions to hold the EXACT SAME STANDARD to christmas and easter.

but not one of you is "celebrating" passover or the feast of unleavened bread as commanded...even without the extra-biblical stuff. you've mixed and matched and then posture about it.

and the guy who brags about staring at a bleeding rack of lamb on passover and thinking of Jesus, well.

time for tea.

 

[Vaudeville]

by the way...if anyone still doubts that passover is exactly the same day as the first day of the feast of unleavened bread...

deuteronomy 16:4..."For seven days no leaven shall be seen with you in all your territory, and none of the flesh which you sacrifice on the evening of the first day shall remain overnight until morning."

this is precisely what i've been saying, sourcing Deuteronomy.
when Jerusalem became the place for the feasts, they were merged.

 

[KohenMatt]

but not one of you is "celebrating" passover or the feast of unleavened bread as commanded...even without the extra-biblical stuff. you've mixed and matched and then posture about it.

and the guy who brags about staring at a bleeding rack of lamb on passover and thinking of Jesus, well.

time for tea.

Because you insist that it has to be done a certain way. It doesn't HAVE to be done in a certain way, because there is nothing dependent on keeping Passover. Passover isn't about the legalistic rules and regulations of celebrating the day (of which there are very few). It's about a heart that desires to remember and worship our Savior. The only people that could be classified as legalistic Pharisees in this would probably be those that say it HAS to be done a certain way or it's wrong.

Personally, I would rather celebrate a Biblical holiday somewhat incorrectly, than celebrate a non-Biblical holiday.

 

[Vaudeville]

Because you insist that it has to be done a certain way. It doesn't HAVE to be done in a certain way, because there is nothing dependent on keeping Passover. Passover isn't about the legalistic rules and regulations of celebrating the day (of which there are very few). It's about a heart that desires to remember and worship our Savior. The only people that could be classified as legalistic Pharisees in this would probably be those that say it HAS to be done a certain way or it's wrong.

Personally, I would rather celebrate a Biblical holiday somewhat incorrectly, than celebrate a non-Biblical holiday.

the vast majority of mosaic keepers here say they do it to be PLEASING TO GOD.

the Law says DO exactly. not somewhat incorrectly. i suppose if they repent for sinning after doing it incorrectly, whatever.

 

[Vaudeville]

Because you insist that it has to be done a certain way. It doesn't HAVE to be done in a certain way, because there is nothing dependent on keeping Passover. Passover isn't about the legalistic rules and regulations of celebrating the day (of which there are very few).

pardon me? it most assuredly IS. but, you who teach the law, do you not know what the law says? i'm a little suspicious of your teachings Matt. you say one thing (your legal observances don't effect your salvation), but in practice your actions could be very damaging to weak brothers who don't understand. you should know better. we see people go this route and end up in bondage.

 

[KohenMatt]

the vast majority of mosaic keepers here say they do it to be PLEASING TO GOD.

And I would agree. God is pleased when we do the things He says to do. Just like He is not pleased when we disobey Him

the Law says DO exactly. not somewhat incorrectly. i suppose if they repent for sinning after doing it incorrectly, whatever.

Where did God or Moses say to do the Law "exactly"? And what happened if the Israelites didn't "do exactly" what the Law said? What was the consequence? And more important, what was the solution to that problem?

What was the point of the Law? To keep score to see who was better? To see who was more holy? Or to know how to live and be in the presence of a Holy God as much as possible?

Do you see grace in the Law? Do you see Mercy? Do you see Love? Because if you don't, the Law will always seem like a religious obligation, and you and I will be speaking 2 different languages.

 

[SarahM777]

And I would agree. God is pleased when we do the things He says to do. Just like He is not pleased when we disobey Him



Where did God or Moses say to do the Law "exactly"? And what happened if the Israelites didn't "do exactly" what the Law said? What was the consequence? And more important, what was the solution to that problem?

What was the point of the Law? To keep score to see who was better? To see who was more holy? Or to know how to live and be in the presence of a Holy God as much as possible?

Do you see grace in the Law? Do you see Mercy? Do you see Love? Because if you don't, the Law will always seem like a religious obligation, and you and I will be speaking 2 different languages.

I don't know about you but i think this is pretty strong language for NOT obeying the terms of the covenant

Deuteronomy 29

29 [a]These are the terms of the covenant the Lord commanded Moses to make with the Israelites in Moab, in addition to the covenant he had made with them at Horeb.
2 Moses summoned all the Israelites and said to them:
Your eyes have seen all that the Lord did in Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his officials and to all his land. 3 With your own eyes you saw those great trials, those signs and great wonders.4 But to this day the Lord has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear. 5 Yet the Lord says, “During the forty years that I led you through the wilderness, your clothes did not wear out, nor did the sandals on your feet. 6 You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink. I did this so that you might know that I am the Lord your God.”
7 When you reached this place, Sihon king of Heshbon and Og king of Bashan came out to fight against us, but we defeated them. 8 We took their land and gave it as an inheritance to the Reubenites, the Gadites and the half-tribe of Manasseh.
9 Carefully follow the terms of this covenant, so that you may prosper in everything you do.10 All of you are standing today in the presence of the Lord your God—your leaders and chief men, your elders and officials, and all the other men of Israel, 11 together with your children and your wives, and the foreigners living in your camps who chop your wood and carry your water. 12 You are standing here in order to enter into a covenant with the Lord your God, a covenant the Lord is making with you this day and sealing with an oath, 13 to confirm you this day as his people, that he may be your God as he promised you and as he swore to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. 14 I am making this covenant, with its oath, not only with you 15 who are standing here with us today in the presence of the Lord our God but also with those who are not here today.
16 You yourselves know how we lived in Egypt and how we passed through the countries on the way here. 17 You saw among them their detestable images and idols of wood and stone, of silver and gold. 18 Make sure there is no man or woman, clan or tribe among you today whose heart turns away from the Lord our God to go and worship the gods of those nations; make sure there is no root among you that produces such bitter poison.
19 When such a person hears the words of this oath and they invoke a blessing on themselves, thinking, “I will be safe, even though I persist in going my own way,” they will bring disaster on the watered land as well as the dry. 20 The Lord will never be willing to forgive them; his wrath and zeal will burn against them. All the curses written in this book will fall on them, and the Lord will blot out their names from under heaven. 21 The Lord will single them out from all the tribes of Israel for disaster, according to all the curses of the covenant written in this Book of the Law.
22 Your children who follow you in later generations and foreigners who come from distant lands will see the calamities that have fallen on the land and the diseases with which theLord has afflicted it. 23 The whole land will be a burning waste of salt and sulfur—nothing planted, nothing sprouting, no vegetation growing on it. It will be like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboyim, which the Lord overthrew in fierce anger. 24 All the nations will ask: “Why has the Lord done this to this land? Why this fierce, burning anger?”
25 And the answer will be: “It is because this people abandoned the covenant of the Lord, the God of their ancestors, the covenant he made with them when he brought them out of Egypt. 26 They went off and worshiped other gods and bowed down to them, gods they did not know, gods he had not given them. 27 Therefore the Lord’s anger burned against this land, so that he brought on it all the curses written in this book. 28 In furious anger and in great wrath the Lord uprooted them from their land and thrust them into another land, as it is now.”

 

[SarahM777]

Cont

Leviticus 26

14 “‘But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands, 15 and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my covenant, 16 then I will do this to you: I will bring on you sudden terror, wasting diseases and fever that will destroy your sight and sap your strength. You will plant seed in vain, because your enemies will eat it. 17 I will set my face against you so that you will be defeated by your enemies; those who hate you will rule over you, and you will flee even when no one is pursuing you.
18 “‘If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over.19 I will break down your stubborn pride and make the sky above you like iron and the ground beneath you like bronze. 20 Your strength will be spent in vain, because your soil will not yield its crops, nor will the trees of your land yield their fruit.
21 “‘If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve. 22 I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted.
23 “‘If in spite of these things you do not accept my correction but continue to be hostile toward me, 24 I myself will be hostile toward you and will afflict you for your sins seven times over. 25 And I will bring the sword on you to avenge the breaking of the covenant. When you withdraw into your cities, I will send a plague among you, and you will be given into enemy hands. 26 When I cut off your supply of bread, ten women will be able to bake your bread in one oven, and they will dole out the bread by weight. You will eat, but you will not be satisfied.
27 “‘If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me,28 then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. 29 You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters. 30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies[b] on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you. 31 I will turn your cities into ruins and lay waste your sanctuaries, and I will take no delight in the pleasing aroma of your offerings.32 I myself will lay waste the land, so that your enemies who live there will be appalled. 33 I will scatter you among the nations and will draw out my sword and pursue you. Your land will be laid waste, and your cities will lie in ruins. 34 Then the land will enjoy its sabbath years all the time that it lies desolate and you are in the country of your enemies; then the land will rest and enjoy its sabbaths. 35 All the time that it lies desolate, the land will have the rest it did not have during the sabbaths you lived in it.
36 “‘As for those of you who are left, I will make their hearts so fearful in the lands of their enemies that the sound of a windblown leaf will put them to flight. They will run as though fleeing from the sword, and they will fall, even though no one is pursuing them. 37 They will stumble over one another as though fleeing from the sword, even though no one is pursuing them. So you will not be able to stand before your enemies. 38 You will perish among the nations; the land of your enemies will devour you. 39 Those of you who are left will waste away in the lands of their enemies because of their sins; also because of their ancestors’sins they will waste away.
40 “‘But if they will confess their sins and the sins of their ancestors—their unfaithfulness and their hostility toward me, 41 which made me hostile toward them so that I sent them into the land of their enemies—then when their uncircumcised hearts are humbled and they pay for their sin, 42 I will remember my covenant with Jacob and my covenant with Isaac and my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land. 43 For the land will be deserted by them and will enjoy its sabbaths while it lies desolate without them. They will pay for their sins because they rejected my laws and abhorred my decrees. 44 Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the Lord their God. 45 But for their sake I will remember the covenant with their ancestors whom I brought out of Egypt in the sight of the nations to be their God. I am the Lord.’”
46 These are the decrees, the laws and the regulations that the Lord established at Mount Sinai between himself and the Israelites through Moses.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

an increasingly popular claim today is the notion that jesus did not actually die on a friday...most commonly it is suggested that jesus died on a wednesday...others have suggested that jesus died on a thursday or even a tuesday...a few people have even argued that jesus did not rise from the dead on a sunday!

however this view is mistaken...as i will show in this thread...jesus -did- die on a friday and he -did- rise on a sunday and there is absolutely no alternative that does not contradict scripture...

Okay - I will begin with this OP. Most disagree with the Friday to Sunday timeline because that is not "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth". We have Friday/Friday night, Saturday/Saturday night, then Sunday -

to begin with...much of the confusion comes from misconceptions about the timing and duration of the passover or feast of unleavened bread... many are under the mistaken impression that passover and the feast of unleavened bread are two separate festivals...with the feast of unleavened bread beginning twenty-four hours after the passover seder...

but scripture indicates that this idea is incorrect...and shows that the terms 'passover' and 'feast of unleavened bread' are actually interchangeable names for the same seven day feast...

ezekiel 45:21..."In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, you shall have the Passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten."
luke 22:1..."Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which is called the Passover, was approaching."

furthermore scripture shows that the passover seder marked the first day of the feast unleavened bread...

matthew 26:17..."Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus and asked, 'Where do You want us to prepare for You to eat the Passover?'"
mark 14:12..."On the first day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover lamb was being sacrificed, His disciples *said to Him, 'Where do You want us to go and prepare for You to eat the Passover?'"
luke 22:7..."Then came the first day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed."

so the passover seder corresponded with the first day of the feast of unleavened bread...the feast of unleaved bread did -not- begin a day later as many people have assumed...

the feast of unleavened bread began on a fixed date in the hebrew calendar each year...specifically the fifteenth day of the month of abib...

leviticus 23:6..."Then on the fifteenth day of the same month there is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread."
numbers 28:17..."On the fifteenth day of this month shall be a feast, unleavened bread shall be eaten for seven days."

so the passover and feast of unleavened bread went as follows...

abib 15...first day of the feast of unleavened bread...beginning with passover seder...sacred assembly held...
abib 16...second day of the feast of unleavened bread...
abib 17...third day of the feast...
abib 18...fourth day...
abib 19...fifth day...
abib 20...sixth day...
abib 21...seventh day of the feast of unleavened bread...sacred assembly held...

someone will probably object that scripture states that the passover seder was held on the evening of the -fourteenth- day...implying that it was the fourteenth day when the seder was held...with the feast of unleavened bread not beginning until one day later on the fifteenth day...

but this notion is based on another misconception...it turns out that when scripture speaks of the evening of a certain day...it is actually indicating the -end- of that day and the -beginning- of the next day... this convention is clear from the scripture on the day of atonement...

leviticus 23:27-32..."On exactly the tenth day of this seventh month is the day of atonement; it shall be a holy convocation for you, and you shall humble your souls and present an offering by fire to the Lord. You shall not do any work on this same day, for it is a day of atonement, to make atonement on your behalf before the Lord your God. If there is any person who will not humble himself on this same day, he shall be cut off from his people. As for any person who does any work on this same day, that person I will destroy from among his people. You shall do no work at all. It is to be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwelling places. It is to be a sabbath of complete rest to you, and you shall humble your souls; on the ninth of the month at evening, from evening until evening you shall keep your sabbath."

it is clear from this scripture that the evening of the ninth day was regarded as the -ending- of the ninth day and the -beginning- of the tenth day which was the day of atonement...with the ninth day not actually being part of the day of atonement...

so applying scripture's own convention to passover and the feast of unleavened bread...it is equally clear that the evening of the passover seder was the -end- of the fourteenth day of the month and the -beginning- of the fifteenth day of the month...the fourteenth day itself was not part of the passover observance or the feast of unleavened bread...

having established that...we can say that anything that took place in the daylight hours immediately following the night of the seder happened on what scripture would call the fifteenth day...

that is significant because jesus was crucified in the daylight hours immediately following the night of the seder he held with his disciples...that means jesus was crucified on the fifteenth day of the month...


someone may try to argue that jesus' last supper was not actually the passover seder...but that is disproved by mark 14:12...which i quoted above...it clearly shows that the passover lambs were killed on the evening of the same day jesus' disciples obtained the use of the upper room for his last supper...so there is no doubt that the last supper was a passover seder...

having established that jesus was crucified on the fifteenth day of the month of abib...we now look to the fact that the day following jesus' crucifixion was a sabbath...

mark 15:42..."When evening had already come, because it was the preparation day, that is, the day before the Sabbath,"
john 19:31..."Then the Jews, because it was the day of preparation, so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away."

the entire basis of all 'anti good friday' arguments is the notion that this sabbath could have been one of the days of assembly associated with the feast of unleavened bread...however we can now see that this is impossible...

given that jesus was crucified on the fifteenth day of abib...it is clear that the sabbath of the following day would have fallen on the sixteenth day of abib...however in the laws regarding the passover and feast of unleavened bread there is no provision for a sabbath on the sixteenth day of abib...but only on the fifteenth and twenty-first days of the month...

in fact it is apparent that the sabbatical assembly was actually held on the day of the crucifixion...which likely explains how the jews were so quickly assembled before pilate to observe the trial of jesus...they would have been assembling anyway...

this all means that this sabbath can -only- be the weekly saturday sabbath...and if the day after jesus' crucifixion was a saturday...then jesus was crucified on a friday...

God's instruction to Israel was to select the Passover lambs on the 10th of Nisan. They were to keep and care for them until the 14th of Nisan. [Ex. 12:3-6] From the selection on the 10th to the close of the 14th was a period of preparation for the Passover meal and the Feast of Unleavened bread. The 14th was "a day of preparation" for it was on this day that the lamb was slain and prepared for eating. Biblical reckoning of the beginning of the day is different than ours. Now - midnight marks the end of th one day and the beginning of the next - however in biblical times, sunset was the start of a new day. [ex. the 5th of Nisan ended at sunset and at the same time the 6th began. It would remain the 6th until the following sunset] The lamb had to be slain on the 14th of Nisan before sunset because sunset began the 15th, a new day.

Leviticus 23:5 - In the fourteenth day of the first month at even [between the evenings] is the Lords's passover. Numbers 9:3,5 In the fourteenth day of this month, at even [between the evenings], ye shall keep it. . .and they kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the firsst month at even [between the evenings]. . .
Joshua 5:10 And the children of Israel encamped in Gilgal, and kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the month at even in the plains of Jericho.
2 Chronicles 35:1 . . . they killed the passover on the fourteenth day of the first month.
Ezra 6:19 And the children of the captivity kept the passover upon the fourteenth day of the first month.
Above it has been repeatedly estalished that the passover lamb was killed during the afternoon of the 14th of Nisan [between the evenings]. The passover lamb was to be eaten "in that night'", after sunset and before midnight. [had to be eaten before midnight since that is when the destroyer smote the land of Egypt in Exodus 12:29.] The passover meal, eaten in the night, was the first meal of the Feast of Unleavened Bread that is the how Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread overlap. Since the passover meal was part of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the preparations for the Passover would be part of the preparations for the entire Feast.

having established that jesus was crucified on a friday...it is relatively easy to prove that jesus rose on a sunday...here are the relevant scriptures...

matthew 28:1..."Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave."
mark 16:2..."Very early on the first day of the week, they *came to the tomb when the sun had risen."
mark 16:9..."Now after He had risen early on the first day of the week, He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons."
luke 24:1..."But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared."
john 20:1..."Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene *came early to the tomb, while it *was still dark, and *saw the stone already taken away from the tomb."

the unanimous testimony of all four gospel writers is pretty much non debateable...jesus rose from the dead on the first day of the week...a sunday...


so in conclusion i have proven from scripture that jesus could not have been crucified on any other day but a friday...and that he rose from the dead on a sunday...scripture simply does not allow any alternative such as a wednesday crucifixion...

These records establish is that Jesus Christ was resurrected by the time anyone arrived at the tomb: In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week. . . He is not here: for he is risen (Matt); And when the sabbath was past. . .very early in the morning the first day of the week. . . he is not here, he is risen (Mark); Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning. . they found the stone rolled away . . .and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. . . He is not here, but is risen: (Luke); The first day of the week when it was yet dark . . (John). So the first day of the week was barely started and the Lord was already risen - but if you want to call that a day that's fine - where is the third night?

 

[KohenMatt]

Absolutely. If you disobey God, there are consequences. Especially if you don't repent and change.
What happens today when we are disobedient to God? Are there consequences? Is there mercy and grace?
And what happened once Israel broke the law? Was there any solution, or were they automatically condemned?

Or was there mercy and grace, too?

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Again you still have the problem with Jesus then being arrested,tried,convicted,and being put to death on a HIGH SABBATH. And again Matthew,Mark and Luke then are NOT in agreement with John. John is very precise in what he plainly says. Remember scripture CAN NOT contradict scripture. And also remember John was one of the DISCIPLES THAT PREPARED THE ROOM.

You are correct on the fact that I should have noted the source better,but it does NOT change the fact that he is correct in that in the original manuscripts on Matthew 26:17 both day,and feast of ARE NOT in the texts. Look it up in the Greek Interlinear.

Strong's concordance gives this for the meaning of hemera

2250. hemera hay-mer'-ah feminine (with 5610 implied) of a derivative of hemai (to sit; akin to the base of 1476) meaning tame, i.e. gentle; day, i.e. (literally) the time space between dawn and dark, or the whole 24 hours (but several days were usually reckoned by the Jews as inclusive of the parts of both extremes); figuratively, a period (always defined more or less clearly by the context):--age, + alway, (mid-)day (by day, (-ly)), + for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years.

do you think the jewish leaders who hated jesus actually -cared- that it was the passover sabbath? a trial at night was illegal too...but they still did it...why do you think an execution on the passover sabbath would have been beneath them?

acts 12:3 indicates that the jews didn't always object to an arrest during passover...

i already showed how john's statements don't contradict the other gospels...but i guess you would rather rewrite matthew and mark and luke along with the armstrong cultist you quoted from...

and your source is just plain wrong by the way...both 'first' and 'day' appear in mark 14:12... the greek word mark uses for 'first' in this verse is the same one he uses for the 'first day of the week' in mark 16:9... the greek word mark uses for 'day' is the same word he uses to refer to the sabbath day in mark 6:2...and to refer to jesus' resurrection on the third day in mark 9:31 and elsewhere...and to refer to the first day of the week in mark 19:2... so it should be obvious that mark doesn't intend for 'first day' to mean some indefinite time...


there is other proof that jesus kept the passover in the upper room...for example...

matthew 26:18..."And He said, 'Go into the city to a certain man, and say to him, "The Teacher says, 'My time is near; I am to keep the Passover at your house with My disciples.'"'"

did jesus just lie or was he actually going to keep the passover?

jesus also called the meal 'this passover'...

luke 22:15..."And He said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer;"

this was -right after- the disciples prepared the passover in luke 22:13...so it is clear what jesus was eating...

and pilate offered to release a prisoner to the jews because it was passover...

john 18:39..."But you have a custom that I release someone for you at the Passover; do you wish then that I release for you the King of the Jews?"

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

oh and here is one more proof that jesus did hold a passover seder and died on the following passover day...

matthew 26:1-2..."When Jesus had finished all these words, He said to His disciples, 'You know that after two days the Passover is coming, and the Son of Man is to be handed over for crucifixion.'"

first of all jesus is obviously associating his death with the passover...but if that isn't convincing enough...it can also be established chronologically...

jesus had said this on the mount of olives...as indicated earlier by matthew...

matthew 24:3..."As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, 'Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?'"

this happened at night time...because luke tells us this...

luke 21:37..."Now during the day He was teaching in the temple, but at evening He would go out and spend the night on the mount that is called Olivet."

after spending the night on the mount of olives we see jesus in bethany the next day...where he is anointed by a woman...

matthew 26:6-7..."Now when Jesus was in Bethany, at the home of Simon the leper, a woman came to Him with an alabaster vial of very costly perfume, and she poured it on His head as He reclined at the table."
mark 14:3..."While He was in Bethany at the home of Simon the leper, and reclining at the table, there came a woman with an alabaster vial of very costly perfume of pure nard; and she broke the vial and poured it over His head."

by that night there would have been one day left until the passover...according to what jesus had said in matthew 26:1-2...

the next day was the day the disciples acquired the upper room and prepared the passover...see matthew 26:17-19...mark 14:12-16...and luke 22:7-13...

that evening jesus arrived for the meal...

mark 14:17..."When it was evening He *came with the twelve."

and that night the 'two days' of matthew 26:1-2 ran out...it was passover...

that night jesus was arrested...in the late night and early morning jesus was tried...and that day he was crucified and died...

which proves that jesus died on passover day...the first day of the feast of unleavened bread...

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

And I would agree. God is pleased when we do the things He says to do. Just like He is not pleased when we disobey Him



Where did God or Moses say to do the Law "exactly"? And what happened if the Israelites didn't "do exactly" what the Law said? What was the consequence? And more important, what was the solution to that problem?

What was the point of the Law? To keep score to see who was better? To see who was more holy? Or to know how to live and be in the presence of a Holy God as much as possible?

Do you see grace in the Law? Do you see Mercy? Do you see Love? Because if you don't, the Law will always seem like a religious obligation, and you and I will be speaking 2 different languages.

isn't there already a thread for this kind of argument?

 

[VCO]

mark 14:12 and luke 22:7 both indicate that jesus' disciples acquired the upper room for the passover seder on the day the passover lambs were sacrificed...

and the source of this 'translator error' article turns out to be an armstrong cultist...among other dubious things i found on that site is the claim that the scapegoat on the day of atonement is satan instead of christ...

And the passover lambs are sacrificed on the day before the Passover Seder, the 14th of Nisan. Here is where the confusion is:

The "first day of unleavened bread" is not talking about the day the Feast of Unleavened Bread starts, but RATHER the Day you get the leaven out of the houses in preparation for the Feast of Unleavened Bread and therefore you start USING THE UNLEAVENED BREAD on the 14th. The day of Preparation begins at Sundown on the 13th in our way of thinking:


Matthew 26:17 On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?"

Pulpit Commentary

Verses 17-19. - Preparation for the Paschal Sapper. (Mark 14:12-16; Luke 22:7-13.) Verse 17. - The first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread; literally, on the first day of Unleavened Bread. We have arrived at the Thursday in the Holy Week, Nisan 13. Wednesday had been spent in retirement at Bethany, and no acts or sayings of Christ on that day are recorded. The festival actually began at sunset of the 14th which was called the day of preparation, because the lambs for the feast were slain in the afternoon of that day, preparatory to their being eaten before the morning of the 15th. Domestic preparation, involving the removal of all leaven from houses and the use of unleavened bread, began on the 13th; hence this was considered at this era "the first day of the Unleavened."Came to Jesus. As the Master of the family, who had the ordering of all the details of the Paschal celebration. They did not know the mind of Jesus on the subject, and desired his directions as in former years. Bethany was considered as Jerusalem for the purposes of the solemn meal, and the apostles thought that preparation was to be made at some house in that village. Prepare for thee to eat the Passover. The preparations were numerous: a proper room had to be found and swept and carefully cleansed from every particle of leaven; tables and couches had to be arranged, lights to be supplied, the lamb and all other necessaries (e.g. bread, wine, bitter herbs) provided. All these preparations took much time, so it was doubtless in the early morning that the disciples applied to our Lord. When they spoke of eating the Passover, they doubtless supposed that Christ meant in due course to celebrate the regular Paschal supper on the appointed day, i.e. on the evening of Friday. But his intentions were different from what they expected.
Matthew 26:17 On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?"

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Okay - I will begin with this OP. Most disagree with the Friday to Sunday timeline because that is not "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth". We have Friday/Friday night, Saturday/Saturday night, then Sunday -


God's instruction to Israel was to select the Passover lambs on the 10th of Nisan. They were to keep and care for them until the 14th of Nisan. [Ex. 12:3-6] From the selection on the 10th to the close of the 14th was a period of preparation for the Passover meal and the Feast of Unleavened bread. The 14th was "a day of preparation" for it was on this day that the lamb was slain and prepared for eating. Biblical reckoning of the beginning of the day is different than ours. Now - midnight marks the end of th one day and the beginning of the next - however in biblical times, sunset was the start of a new day. [ex. the 5th of Nisan ended at sunset and at the same time the 6th began. It would remain the 6th until the following sunset] The lamb had to be slain on the 14th of Nisan before sunset because sunset began the 15th, a new day.

Leviticus 23:5 - In the fourteenth day of the first month at even [between the evenings] is the Lords's passover. Numbers 9:3,5 In the fourteenth day of this month, at even [between the evenings], ye shall keep it. . .and they kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the firsst month at even [between the evenings]. . .
Joshua 5:10 And the children of Israel encamped in Gilgal, and kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the month at even in the plains of Jericho.
2 Chronicles 35:1 . . . they killed the passover on the fourteenth day of the first month.
Ezra 6:19 And the children of the captivity kept the passover upon the fourteenth day of the first month.
Above it has been repeatedly estalished that the passover lamb was killed during the afternoon of the 14th of Nisan [between the evenings]. The passover lamb was to be eaten "in that night'", after sunset and before midnight. [had to be eaten before midnight since that is when the destroyer smote the land of Egypt in Exodus 12:29.] The passover meal, eaten in the night, was the first meal of the Feast of Unleavened Bread that is the how Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread overlap. Since the passover meal was part of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the preparations for the Passover would be part of the preparations for the entire Feast.

These records establish is that Jesus Christ was resurrected by the time anyone arrived at the tomb: In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week. . . He is not here: for he is risen (Matt); And when the sabbath was past. . .very early in the morning the first day of the week. . . he is not here, he is risen (Mark); Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning. . they found the stone rolled away . . .and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. . . He is not here, but is risen: (Luke); The first day of the week when it was yet dark . . (John). So the first day of the week was barely started and the Lord was already risen - but if you want to call that a day that's fine - where is the third night?

your discussion actually proves my point...if the passover lambs were killed at the end of the fourteenth day...then the seder took place during the night at the beginning of the -fifteenth- day...

jesus accordingly held his seder on the night beginning the fifteenth day...

later on the night of the fifteenth day jesus was arrested and tried by the sanhedrin...

in the early morning hours immediately following...that is the morning of the fifteenth day...jesus was tried before pilate and herod...

at about 9:00 in the morning on the fifteenth day they crucified jesus...at 3:00 in the afternoon on the fifteenth day jesus died...late that afternoon joseph of arimathea obtained the body of jesus and he and nicodemus buried jesus while the women watched...all of this was finished by sunset...

at sunset the -sixteenth- day began...the sixteenth day was not one of the passover sabbaths...which only happened on the fifteenth and twenty-first days of the month...

but since the sixteenth day is identified as a passover anyway...it can -only- have been the weekly saturday sabbath...

i showed in my second post in this thread an example of partial days being counted as full days...in acts 10 the phrase 'four days' included two full days and two partial days...all of which added up to only seventy-two hours...

in parallel passages we can see that jesus considered 'three days and three nights' to mean the same thing as the simple 'three days'...

since 'three days and three nights' meant the same thing as the simple 'three days' in jesus' mind...then it too could include any partial days as 'days and nights' in their own right...

so you aren't supposed to expect six twelve-hour periods...you are just supposed to count off three days...including partial days...from friday to sunday...and to notice the parallel with jonah who likewise was gone from the face of the earth and then returned...

 

[VCO]

And the passover lambs are sacrificed on the day before the Passover Seder, the 14th of Nisan. Here is where the confusion is:

The "first day of unleavened bread" is not talking about the day the Feast of Unleavened Bread starts, but RATHER the Day you get the leaven out of the houses in preparation for the Feast of Unleavened Bread and therefore you start USING THE UNLEAVENED BREAD on the 14th. The day of Preparation begins at Sundown on the 13th in our way of thinking:


Matthew 26:17 On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?"

That is crazy, the site I posted to that quote above, kept posting the verse instead of the site address; BUT that verse at the bottom is the hyperlink to the site, where I got that above info.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

And the passover lambs are sacrificed on the day before the Passover Seder, the 14th of Nisan. Here is where the confusion is:

The "first day of unleavened bread" is not talking about the day the Feast of Unleavened Bread starts, but RATHER the Day you get the leaven out of the houses in preparation for the Feast of Unleavened Bread and therefore you start USING THE UNLEAVENED BREAD on the 14th. The day of Preparation begins at Sundown on the 13th in our way of thinking:


Matthew 26:17 On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?"

i see no scriptural evidence whatsoever that anything connected with the passover was scheduled for the thirteenth day of the month...let alone that the thirteenth day would have been called the 'first day of the feast of unleavened bread'

in fact i see scripture that proves the opposite...

deuteronomy 16:4..."For seven days no leaven shall be seen with you in all your territory, and none of the flesh which you sacrifice on the evening of the first day shall remain overnight until morning."

the first day of the feast of unleavened bread is the day the passover lamb was sacrificed and eaten...

 

[VCO]

Minor problem with that,if the Passover lambs were killed at the BEGINNING of the 14th and not the end,you end up with almost a 30 hour window between the times the Passover meal was eaten and when they left Egypt. The angel came at MIDNIGHT of Nissan 15. So why would God have them prepare a meal that was to be eaten in HASTE almost 30 or more hours BEFORE they were to leave? The meal was eaten the SAME NIGHT THEY LEFT EGYPT.

I love your Oswald Chambers quote. The Passover traditions have been practiced exactly the same for 3500 years. The lambs are sacrificed between 3:00 PM - 6:00 PM on the 14th of Nisan.