SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS!

[Jabberjaw]

Whatever man....I call like I see it!....Not my fault you refuse to listen and want to follow a road that leads as south as you can get.....God is in the North parts and to make his courts you need to trust into Jesus and the work that he already completed for YOU and if you keep putting your works to Christ as your means of salvation you will never make it as it is a FALSE GOSPEL of a DIFFERENT KIND and CONTRARY to what Jesus, Paul, John etc. taught.

Trust Jesus for total salvation before it is eternally too late!

Your map is upside down, gater has it right.

 

[Apostol2013]

The first works was the Love of God......they like many churches were doing everything under the sun for Jesus but had forgotten about the simple truth concerning the Love of God....A study of the church and the Pastors they had Timothy and John and it becomes evident how fast a church can lose it's way to the extent it gets warned by God concerning their authority

The jest of this post....

1. Is salvation based upon grace through faith and because of the mercy of God gained by faith
or
2. Are we saved and kept saved by our works plus Jesus

My OP states what I believe clearly..our salvation is based upon faith void of our human works or efforts to gain it or keep it...NOT by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy has he SAVED US

you fail to see the theology of the apostles but holiuness is part of the faith through the redemptive spirit of God the works are of God through faith in the Lord throught the edification of the spirit and correction of th holy scriptures all of Gods word but look at this verse , i pray that God gives you the ability to discern and maybe your eyes be open

 

[Apostol2013]

I love all of you for your hand in illumination of the scriptures. I will admit I am not quite understanding this works versus grace thread and the other ones either. Can someone please explain it to me in simple terms?

What is meant by the last verse, 'do thy first works'? I am thinking the works talked about in scripture are meaning different things. Works here could mean what we do to repent, that being part of a continual cleansing we do to maintain our relationship with God in an honest and humble way.

I am thinking that there is merit in the teaching that we are saved by the grace of God in his Christ, but that we are also told to repent and obey God's commandments...now is the argument that if we don't do the work of repentance we are in danger of losing our salvation? And some of you are saying we never lose our salvation once we accept the gift of the cross?

Well i know for a fact there is a circumcision of the heart we are suppose to undergo the bible clearly states it , salvation can be lost due to many things one is disbelief , another might be repetative habitial sin withour true repentance ,and there is also the error in doctrine to teach others to sin leading many to death as this is due to allways saved doctrines wich christ never taught , jesus let us trully know there are consequenses for our actions even to the elect thank you , peace be of christ with you

 

[Apostol2013]

But to make it clear the holy spirit is the purifier and renovator through Christ

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But to make it clear the holy spirit is the purifier and renovator through Christ

not to be mean or argumentative.

But you seem to be contradicting yourself.

on the one hand you say salvation can be lost. based on what we do (or do not do) then you say it is the HS who purifies and renovates us.

Are you saying God can fail? Is it of God, or is it of us?

 

[Cassian]

you fail to see the theology of the apostles but holiuness is part of the faith through the redemptive spirit of God the works are of God through faith in the Lord throught the edification of the spirit and correction of th holy scriptures all of Gods word but look at this verse , i pray that God gives you the ability to discern and maybe your eyes be open

When the originator of the OP cannot even summarize the oppositions view point and creates a strawman how can they even begin to refute what the opposition is even saying. I think they believe in their own mischaracterizations so they can argue for their position without opposition except the strawman.

 

[Apostol2013]

not to be mean or argumentation.

But you seem to be contradicting yourself.

on the one hand you say salvation can be lost. based on what we do no God never fails (or do not do) then you say it is the HS who purifies and renovates us.

Are you saying God can fail? Is it of God, or is it of us?

No God never fails it is mans folly that fails him through sin , now when the apostles say faith it covers a veriety of things in doctrine the main parts are focused in the life in the spirit christ and the cross attonement by blood baptism etc when you hear them mention love ot is more than affection it is holiness there are many scriptural references to back this up but whenwwe habe faith we have belif in action = hope , but our hope must be directed at the right direction wich is Jesus Christ who has all power to save

 

[Grandpa]

Well i know for a fact there is a circumcision of the heart we are suppose to undergo the bible clearly states it , salvation can be lost due to many things one is disbelief , another might be repetative habitial sin withour true repentance ,and there is also the error in doctrine to teach others to sin leading many to death as this is due to allways saved doctrines wich christ never taught , jesus let us trully know there are consequenses for our actions even to the elect thank you , peace be of christ with you

Ephesians 2:4-10
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Salvation is the gift of God. Salvation is never lost because it is not men who maintain it but God Himself. Otherwise salvation and the maintaining of it would be works of men. Like making sure you have enough belief, not too much sin, constantly in trepidation. That is not being in Christ. In Christ there is no condemnation. There is no fear.

How do you reconcile what you have said with these verses?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No God never fails it is mans folly that fails him through sin ,

This makes no sense. How can God save us when we are at our most sinful, then unsave us when we are not as sinful when we were saved (which a true born again adopted son of God would never reach again)

now when the apostles say faith it covers a veriety of things in doctrine the main parts are focused in the life in the spirit christ and the cross attonement by blood baptism etc when you hear them mention love ot is more than affection it is holiness there are many scriptural references to back this up but whenwwe habe faith we have belif in action = hope , but our hope must be directed at the right direction wich is Jesus Christ who has all power to save

Yes he does. And it says he HAS saved (not might save) us already.

He also says he who began a good work (the work of purifying and renovating us) will continue that work till the day of Christ, So to say that we can lose salvation based on not being renovated is saying God failed to do what he promised to do.

 

[Apostol2013]

Lets explain in physical terms , once was a man that saw this new drill , immediately he wanted it so he perceived it envisioned it and had hope to purchase it he had no money but began to save money and mow lawns etc eventually he bought it , but the point is hope is what is when there is a goal hope produces expectation tjen there are actions associated with hope but there must be focus upon that we have expectations but so does God since God is sovereign just and true there is no pleasure that man be lost on the contrary God gave us His son His Word for our guide and the Holy spirit for strength through Christ our reason for salvation

 

[Apostol2013]

This makes no sense. How can God save us when we are at our most sinful, than unsave us when we are not as sinful when we were saved (which a true born again adopted son of God would never reach again)



Yes he does. And it says he HAS saved (not might save) us already.

He also says he who began a good work (the work of purifying and renovating us) will continue that work till the day of Christ, So to say that we can lose salvation based on not being renovated is saying God failed to do what he promised to do.

Lets go back to exodus when the israelites were taken through the dessert many died before entering the promised land God had expectation but man had failed Him , the key is free will since our existance is eternal with God we have to be tried because the heavens were cleansed once of satan and his angels now , would God let disorder re enter His kingdom ? We are also expected to be faithfull stewarts of His house

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Lets explain in physical terms , once was a man that saw this new drill , immediately he wanted it so he perceived it envisioned it and had hope to purchase it he had no money but began to save money and mow lawns etc eventually he bought it , but the point is hope is what is when there is a goal hope produces expectation tjen there are actions associated with hope but there must be focus upon that we have expectations but so does God since God is sovereign just and true there is no pleasure that man be lost on the contrary God gave us His son His Word for our guide and the Holy spirit for strength through Christ our reason for salvation

There is one major flaw in this senerio,

Salvation is a gift. Not a reward or prize of something earned. Thus the man would not have had to work to earn that drill, it would have been given to him for free,

even deeper of a physical example would be the man did not deserve to get that drill, because the man was always doing what he was not supposed to do. and was actually apposed to the one who decided to give him that free gift. Thus the one who gave the gift showed mercy and grace to the one who was undeserving, by giving him the drill anyway.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Lets go back to exodus when the israelites were taken through the dessert many died before entering the promised land God had expectation but man had failed Him , the key is free will since our existance is eternal with God we have to be tried because the heavens were cleansed once of satan and his angels now , would God let disorder re enter His kingdom ? We are also expected to be faithfull stewarts of His house

yes lets go back to exodus.

What was Gods requirement?

Cursed is everyone who does not confirm and obey all the words of this law.

1 sin your done.

thus NO one deserved to enter the promised land. Not moses, Not Arron not any.

However, The ones who entered had what? They believed in God, trusted him, and although they continued to fail, mess up (to follow the just requirement of the law) they trusted him from day one

The others did not trust God. They continued to want to go back to egypt (their old life) from the time they left.

 

[Apostol2013]

12 This is the law of the house; Upon the top of the mountain the whole limit thereof round about shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.

 

[Apostol2013]

There is one major flaw in this senerio,

Salvation is a gift. Not a reward or prize of something earned. Thus the man would not have had to work to earn that drill, it would have been given to him for free,

even deeper of a physical example would be the man did not deserve to get that drill, because the man was always doing what he was not supposed to do. and was actually apposed to the one who decided to give him that free gift. Thus the one who gave the gift showed mercy and grace to the one who was undeserving, by giving him the drill anyway.

Yes salvation is a gift but it is also to be cared for mainained ,when you are given a gift you will care for it will you not , yes there are mistakes but the key is willfull mistakes and openfaced defiance

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes salvation is a gift but it is also to be cared for mainained ,when you are given a gift you will care for it will you not , yes there are mistakes but the key is willfull mistakes and openfaced defiance

Yep.

And what happens to the gift then. Is it taken away? Or does the blessings which were supposed to come from it go away?

There is a difference between the one who gave the gift taking it back (making him hypocrite by saying he gave it out of mercy, then took it back, proving he never had true mercy) and the gift not giving every blessing it was intended to give.

 

[Apostol2013]

yes lets go back to exodus.

What was Gods requirement?

Cursed is everyone who does not confirm and obey all the words of this law.

1 sin your done.

thus NO one deserved to enter the promised land. Not moses, Not Arron not any.

However, The ones who entered had what? They believed in God, trusted him, and although they continued to fail, mess up (to follow the just requirement of the law) they trusted him from day one

The others did not trust God. They continued to want to go back to egypt (their old life) from the time they left.

by
Yes trust is the issue here but shall not we accept what is good for us ? Or reject what is good for us , you see without order there is kaos and we do not live in kaos , for jesus said that a kingdom divided cannot stand

 

[eternally-gratefull]

by
Yes trust is the issue here but shall not we accept what is good for us ? Or reject what is good for us , you see without order there is kaos and we do not live in kaos , for jesus said that a kingdom divided cannot stand

what does that have to do with anything.

Is someone who trusts God going to live in chaos?

it is those who do not trust God that have chaos. because they are still trusting in themselves. and can't see that they are just going in circles. and not getting anywhere.

 

[Apostol2013]

Yep.

And what happens to the gift then. Is it taken away? Or does the blessings which were supposed to come from it go away?

There is a difference between the one who gave the gift taking it back (making him hypocrite by saying he gave it out of mercy, then took it back, proving he never had true mercy) and the gift not giving every blessing it was intended to give.

How about not caring for the gift ?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How about not caring for the gift ?

it is still yours. The giver does not take it back, if he did, it was never a gift in the first place.