Do We Even Care About the TRUTH?

[oldthennew]

Hizikyah,

your name fits you well.

'And Hezekiah sent to all Israel and Judah, and also wrote letters to Ephraim and Manasseh,
that they should come to the House of The Lord at Jerusalem, to keep the Passover to The Lord God of Israel.'
and oh yes, they were mocked.

you have done such a good job, contending for the Faith once delivered to the saints.

the most evil king in the Bible was Jeroboam, he changed the Feast that was in the 7th mo. to the 8th mo.
and he set-up calves to worship.
this incident takes you right back to the 'golden-calf'.
Ex.32:4.
And he received the gold from their hand, and he fashioned it with an engraving tool,
and made a molded calf......
then he makes a proclamation and said, 'tomorrow is a FEAST to The Lord. and then they make their offering to God...
WAS GOD PLEASED WITH THIS WORSHIP?????

1Cor.10:7&11.
And do not become 'idolaters' as were some of them.
As it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. (this is the incident of the golden calf).

verse 11 tells us, 'Now all these things happen to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition,
upon whom the end of the ages have come.'

we discovered through studying that the 'coloring' of easter eggs
came from a foul-rite in the Canaanite religion.
the high priest would have sex with a virgin upon the altar of Ishtar and impregnate her
- the timing of this was so that the infant could be sacrificed on (easter).
the eggs were dyed in the blood of the infant.

after all the years of us both celebrating easter after the traditions of men,
we were convicted by our Lord to stop this abomination.
'like the scripture says, if the ROOTS are corrupt, so is the TREE.

Jesus and the apostles are OUR examples, and we have not been able to find in the
Bible where any of God's servants celebrate the pagan rituals.
God clearly tells us, Learn not the way of the heathen.
we cannot partake of The Lord's Table and the table of devils.



giving up the ways of the world is a struggle, one that separates and
brings us into the will of God.

 

[BenFTW]

Maybe I take a more innocent approach than some of you in regards to, so called, "pagan holidays." Things like Christmas, Halloween, and Easter for example. Maybe their origins were from paganism. However, who is to say that origins define events and that time doesn't evolve the meaning (behind these events)? Maybe Halloween had to do with a pagan god and dressing up in masks, and murders, but in this day and age, no one (a large majority, 99.9%) take Halloween as a time to dress up and eat candy. Literally, it isn't any deeper than that. I was raised in a Christian-household, and we "celebrated" Halloween. I dressed up as werewolves, Dracula, and whatever else. I was dressing up as things I watched in horror movies, characters that I knew were "scary" or had interesting stories behind them.

So, you see that a "special day" may have had origins that were pagan, but over time its celebration has nothing to do with its origins and everything to do with how current society defines it. And how is that, in regards to Halloween for example? A day to be creative in your appearance and go get some free candy to enjoy. Its not any deeper than that. With Christmas, putting gifts under the tree is not giving gifts to some goddess, or god. Its putting the presents in a place that the family will revolve around and open gifts and share experiences with. The tree itself? Its a symbol that represents Christmas and that time of year. It may have had pagan origins, but no one is doing any holiday with any pagan god in mind or rituals. God looks at the heart, and thats the truth of the matter and what its summed up to.

Oops, made an error in how I typed that. "in this day and age, no one (a large majority, 99.9%) takes Halloween to mean those things but instead (fix*) as a time to dress up and eat candy."

 

[Allin]

It's encouraging to see this thread and posts like that from oldthennew, etc. We've become lax in a lot of things. While laziness is to be expected, it doesn't have any good consequences. The Bible makes it clear that God's people go into captivity and are in bondage of many kinds because we lack knowledge or don't know what we're supposed to know. When Jesus told the Jews that those who continue in (DO) His Word will know the truth and will therefore experience from from bondage, they immediately defended that they'd never been in bondage (Jn. 8). Not only had that been slaves to many nations before, but they were slaves to Rome at that very moment! This is a problem very specific to God's people: Christians carry on the legacy, saying that all our bondage was in the past and not present; but bondage of various levels is the consequence of any kind of sin or part, purposely or not, in paganism or the occult. Though God does look on the heart and can excuse the ignorant and innocent, the consequences for sin and error remain in effect.

All involvement in paganism and the occult, knowingly or unknowingly, has bad consequences. There are lots of ways to have innocent fun; Christians can even make up new holidays simply to get together and celebrate. Holidays don't have to have religious or other meaning or symbolism; they can be just for celebration. Some people will listen to these types of warnings and some won't; but the proof is in the pudding whether or not it's at first evident.

 

[skipp]

Therefore do not let anyone judge you with respect to food or drink, or in the matter of a feast, new moon, or Sabbath days that are only the shadow of the things to come, but the reality is Christ.

 

[RedTent]

I care about truth, I don't care about this silliness. The only similarity they truly share is that Christians wanted to sabotage pagan festivals/'holy' days by putting their godly festivals/holy days on at the same time. It's about raising up truth in God and trampling on the pagan gods. Nothing suspicious here.

I agreed with you not long ago, but I found lots of reasons to question.

I questioned when I read the reasons given for changing religious holidays as written in the reports of the Nicene Council, where a main reason was a hatred of Jews, and anything in the OT written to them. I realize this idea is held by a large group of people, but hating either Jews or debunking the OT does not seem to me to be in keeping with what God teaches us.

Also, having festivals and holidays is part of how people celebrate God, always has been. We have had several holidays shown to us to do in scripture, and labeling them Judaism doesn't seem to me to be a good reason to get rid of them, especially when completely man made holidays are created to take their place. Those holidays weren't like the rituals that the HS took the place of, they acted out our plan of salvation, how our world would progress. I think God can be depended on to plan better holidays that some men could do.

Scripture always points to truth, and how we see things work out tells us a lot about understanding that truth. Our man made holidays have often led as much to commercialism and things against God as they lead to true worship and drawing close to God. Even trees, rabbits, eggs, Santa, strange things brought in. The holidays breathed by God have had fewer unscriptural things brought in.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Ezekiel 8:14 Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.
Ezekiel 8:15 Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these.


The Pagan Origin Of Easter

the ritual weeping for tammuz took place in the summer...so it has nothing to do with easter...

practically everything at that link is misinformation...

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Rosh Hashanah (New Year)
Rosh Hashanah occurs on the first and second days of Tishri (the 7th moon or month, Yahweh's year starts in the 1st month). In Hebrew, Rosh Hashanah means, literally, "head of the year" or "first of the year." Rosh Hashanah is commonly known as the Jewish New Year.

How does the year start in the 7th month? According to the Scriptures and Yahweh;s calendar the year starts in the 1st month, Abib.

the ancient israelites had two calendars...one was a 'ceremonial year' that started in the month of abib...the other was a 'civil year' somewhat like our modern 'fiscal year' that started in the month of tishri...

this is why God commanded the year of jubilee to begin with the month of tishri...

it is amazing how little some messianic fringe adherents know about hebraic things...

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

and last but not least...the wednesday myth...the pre passover crucifixion myth...the seventy-two hour 'three days and three nights' myth...and all the rest have been proven to be unbiblical and literally impossible...

see this thread for the details...
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/89553-good-friday-easter-sunday.html

 

[dcontroversal]

No argument here.....I quit in 92 when the truth was presented to me!

 

[dcontroversal]

Maybe I take a more innocent approach than some of you in regards to, so called, "pagan holidays." Things like Christmas, Halloween, and Easter for example. Maybe their origins were from paganism. However, who is to say that origins define events and that time doesn't evolve the meaning (behind these events)? Maybe Halloween had to do with a pagan god and dressing up in masks, and murders, but in this day and age, no one (a large majority, 99.9%) take Halloween as a time to dress up and eat candy. Literally, it isn't any deeper than that. I was raised in a Christian-household, and we "celebrated" Halloween. I dressed up as werewolves, Dracula, and whatever else. I was dressing up as things I watched in horror movies, characters that I knew were "scary" or had interesting stories behind them.

So, you see that a "special day" may have had origins that were pagan, but over time its celebration has nothing to do with its origins and everything to do with how current society defines it. And how is that, in regards to Halloween for example? A day to be creative in your appearance and go get some free candy to enjoy. Its not any deeper than that. With Christmas, putting gifts under the tree is not giving gifts to some goddess, or god. Its putting the presents in a place that the family will revolve around and open gifts and share experiences with. The tree itself? Its a symbol that represents Christmas and that time of year. It may have had pagan origins, but no one is doing any holiday with any pagan god in mind or rituals. God looks at the heart, and thats the truth of the matter and what its summed up to.

Two Questions...

1. Can that which is crooked be made straight?
2. Can something with Pagan roots be Christianized and then accepted by God?

Answers....

1. That which is crooked cannot be made straight <---Solomon
2. If it is not of God it is sin!

Did not Judah mix Paganism with Biblical WORSHIP=SPIRITUAL ADULTRY and were judged and brought down after three subsequent invasions by the Babylonians?

 

[Angela53510]

Wrong! Ask any rabbi, and he will tell you that ANY PART of a day, is considered a day.

So Friday, Saturday, Sunday! Jesus words about Noah were metaphors. He knew he would be crucified on a Friday and resurrected on Resurrection Sunday! He was talking about the Jewish interpretation of the word "yom". Any part of a day.

The rest is so much nonsense. I confess, I couldn't get through most of it.

This is a glorious day to celebrate the risen Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, or Yeshuah Ha-Mashiach or Iesous Christos (Ἰησοῦς Χριστός).

[h=1]Is Jesus' name really Yeshua?[/h]
by Matt Slick
A lot of people, including some Messianic Jews (Jews who believe Jesus is the Messiah), will call Jesus by a different name: Yeshua (Hebrew יֵשׁוּעַ). They say that Yeshua is the Jewish name that Jesus would have been called by those who knew him. Some messianics and other groups say that Yeshua is Jesus' real name, and that the name "Jesus" is wrong. Others say it is okay to use either one. But then again, there are those who say that the word "Jesus" is pagan in origin and should not be used at all. And if that weren't enough, some say that "Jesus" is derived from "Zeus" and really means "hail Zeus." With all these possibilities is there a real answer to what was the Messiah's real name? Yes, there is. It is found in the New Testament.
The New Testament was written in Greek. If there were any original documents of the New Testament written in Hebrew, we don't have them. At best, some theorize that there might have been a gospel or two written in Hebrew. If that is the case, there is no way to know. The fact is we don't have any Hebrew manuscripts. We only have Greek ones from that period of time.

Since what we do have is the Greek Manuscripts, it is from them that we need to find out what the Apostles wrote about Jesus. In other words, we need to make a case out of what we do have--not what we don't have.
Doing a computer search in the Greek New Testament, the word "Jesus" occurs over 900 times. Following is a chart that lays this out.
[h=2]What does the Greek actually say?[/h]The Greek word for Jesus is Iησοῦς. It is pronounced as "eeaysoos." When "eeaysoos" was transliterated into the English long ago, it became Jesus--the term we use in English today.
Some say that if we don't pronounce Jesus' name properly (either as Yeshua and or Eeaysoos), then we are in sin and serving a false god; but that accusation cannot be made from scripture. It is not the pronunciation of a word that makes us Christian or not. It is receiving the messiah, God in flesh, by faith that makes us a Christian. Likewise, must we say "theos" when saying "God" since that is how the word is pronounced in Greek? Or what about when we call Jesus the "Savior" as in Phil. 3:20, must we pronounce the word as it is in Greek (sotare), or is it okay to use the English word "savior?"
The entire New Testament was written in Greek, and the word Jesus is the word that is used. It is not the Hebrew יֵשׁוּעַ which is Yeshua. So, it is simple. Jesus is properly called Jesus.

• "And she will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for it is He who will save His people from their sins." (Matt. 1:21).
• "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God." (Mark 1:1).
• "let it be known to all of you, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead--by this name this man stands here before you in good health. 11 “He is the stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the very corner stone. 12 “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:10-12).
• Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, acalled as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, (Rom. 1:1).
• "But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone." (Heb. 2:9).
• "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John," (Rev. 1:1).

As you can see, the New Testament uses "Jesus" as the name and not a Hebrew name. For people to say that Jesus' real name is Yashua or Yahusha or Yahushua, etc., is Jesus' real name is just a statement of pushing an agenda and not believing the New Testament text.

What is Jesus' real name? | Is Yeshua then true name of Jesus? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

I can copy and paste too!

 

[skipp]

Actually all of this Ishtar/Easter stuff is an urban legend. Ishtar is Akkadian and Easter is Anglo-Saxon. The two words sound alike but that's the only connection. They are two words from different languages and different cultures.

 

[crossnote]

Unfortunately this is all guilt by association. Just because I celebrate the birth of Jesus on Dec 25 and the Resurrection of our Lord on a day called Easter does not mean I do homage to a character called Santa Claus or put my hope in a bunny rabbit. And whether I call him Jesus or Yeshua, He is still my Savior, and others are my brothers and sisters who have the same Saviour. So pleaseeeee.

 

[alan68]

There is a difference between "worship" and "celebration." On the 4th of July I celebrate my country's independence. I salute the flag. This is NOT WORSHIP (I don't care what the JW's say.) And our culture has put together certain ways of commemorating certain holidays and special days. American Christmas traditions come from many different sources and many different eras of history, some even very recent (how about the 24-hour BB Gun Movie marathon on that cable channel? lol). Even though we know Christ wasn't born on December 25, we have, for whatever reason, made it a tradition to commemorate His birth on that day. We have brought it all together in a way that I see as uniquely American. So when I am celebrating Christmas in this way, I am celebrating America. God sees my heart and knows that I do not honor long-forgotten pagan gods just because I use things that were long ago associated with them. Same with Easter. These celebrations are not acts of worship. I worship God by praying and studying His word, not by celebrating cultural holidays. They are two different things in my mind. I am in the world but not of it.

 

[dcontroversal]

Unfortunately this is all guilt by association. Just because I celebrate the birth of Jesus on Dec 25 and the Resurrection of our Lord on a day called Easter does not mean I do homage to a character called Santa Claus or put my hope in a bunny rabbit. And whether I call him Jesus or Yeshua, He is still my Savior, and others are my brothers and sisters who have the same Saviour. So pleaseeeee.

I like this as well and agree...I could care less who practices and or does not practice and will not judge them as we all have one judge that will judge us all....I choose not to practice any holidays and even skip birthdays because to an eternal God and children who have eternal life what is 50 years, 75 years or even 969 years but a molecule of water in all the water on this planet times 100 to the 50th degree!<----still does not touch eternity!

 

[Tintin]

I agreed with you not long ago, but I found lots of reasons to question.

I questioned when I read the reasons given for changing religious holidays as written in the reports of the Nicene Council, where a main reason was a hatred of Jews, and anything in the OT written to them. I realize this idea is held by a large group of people, but hating either Jews or debunking the OT does not seem to me to be in keeping with what God teaches us.

Also, having festivals and holidays is part of how people celebrate God, always has been. We have had several holidays shown to us to do in scripture, and labeling them Judaism doesn't seem to me to be a good reason to get rid of them, especially when completely man made holidays are created to take their place. Those holidays weren't like the rituals that the HS took the place of, they acted out our plan of salvation, how our world would progress. I think God can be depended on to plan better holidays that some men could do.

Scripture always points to truth, and how we see things work out tells us a lot about understanding that truth. Our man made holidays have often led as much to commercialism and things against God as they lead to true worship and drawing close to God. Even trees, rabbits, eggs, Santa, strange things brought in. The holidays breathed by God have had fewer unscriptural things brought in.

Red Tent, I agree about the commercialism of Christmas and Easter. I don't in any way hate or even dislike the Jewish people. Nor do I think the Old Testament should be debunked. It's very important and contains many of the details and foreshadowings needed to understand the New Testament.

 

[Hizikyah]

Wrong! Ask any rabbi, and he will tell you that ANY PART of a day, is considered a day.

Ask any "rabbi" and they will also tell you the Messiah has not yet come...


Ask any "rabbi" and he will tell you the Talmud is equal to or greater then Scripture...

Matt 23:8, "But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers."

I choose to ask the Messiah:

Yahchanan (John) 11:9, "Yahshua said to them, “Are there not twelve hours in the day? If a man walks in the daylight he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world.”

Mattithyah 11:39-40, "So He answered, and said to them: An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Yahnah: For as Yahnah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

The only sign...

The only sign of the true Messiah, Yahshua.

 

[Hizikyah]

Originally Posted by Hizikyah

Rosh Hashanah (New Year)
Rosh Hashanah occurs on the first and second days of Tishri (the 7th moon or month, Yahweh's year starts in the 1st month). In Hebrew, Rosh Hashanah means, literally, "head of the year" or "first of the year." Rosh Hashanah is commonly known as the Jewish New Year.

How does the year start in the 7th month? According to the Scriptures and Yahweh;s calendar the year starts in the 1st month, Abib.

the ancient israelites had two calendars...one was a 'ceremonial year' that started in the month of abib...the other was a 'civil year' somewhat like our modern 'fiscal year' that started in the month of tishri...

this is why God commanded the year of jubilee to begin with the month of tishri...

it is amazing how little some messianic fringe adherents know about hebraic things...

Did the Israylites have 2 calendars?

Yes.

Yahweh's calendar and the Pharisee calendar done by "rabbi" Hillel the 2nd...

 

[Hizikyah]

Actually all of this Ishtar/Easter stuff is an urban legend. Ishtar is Akkadian and Easter is Anglo-Saxon. The two words sound alike but that's the only connection. They are two words from different languages and different cultures.

Interesting...

Lets see,

Ishtar was worshiped with dying eggs.... so is Easter.

Ishtar was worshiped with bunny (fertility) symbolism... so is Easter.

A ham was eaten on Ishtar Sunday in honor of Tammuz... a ham is eaten on Easter.

.......

[h=2]Re: Do We Even Care About the TRUTH?[/h]
seems not...

 

[RedTent]

Red Tent, I agree about the commercialism of Christmas and Easter. I don't in any way hate or even dislike the Jewish people. Nor do I think the Old Testament should be debunked. It's very important and contains many of the details and foreshadowings needed to understand the New Testament.

Of course you don't hate Jews! I am repeating some of the words used in reports of the Nicene Council where they explained why they wanted Easter instead of Passover. Don't take what they thought personally. I do think that learning why they did it should be considered.

It made me wish I lived in a simple world where my church simply followed scripture for the holidays. It isn't that Easter and Christmas couldn't be fun to do, but what God tells us about is put aside and what man suggests is made the big deal.

The OT uses a lot of people and their ways to teach, then prophets tell what God thinks about what they do. When they excuse some of their ways of making over their celebrations to be celebrations of God, it was not accepted as right. When they made the golden calf, it was to represent the true God. When the temples to idols were destroyed, these were left because it was said it helped them worship the true God. Their arguments sound a lot like the reasons given here for Christianizing these celebrations. God didn't agree at all. If God didn't want us to have golden calves to incorporate in our worship of Him, there is a strong possibility that God doesn't want our man made holidays to replace the ones He suggested.