Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[Jabberjaw]

WOW, you do not understand spiritual baptism then. IT IS NOT Christian Water Baptism that SAVES, but rather it is THE REALITY of Spiritual Baptism into the Body of CHRIST, that SAVES. At the very moment we first believed, the Holy Spirit Baptizes (Immerses) us into the spiritual Body of Christ, placing ETERNAL LIFE in our human spirits (born again). THAT IS WHEN WE WERE SAVED.

Is Christian Water Baptism necessary for SALVATION? NO, BUT IT STILL IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY. It is NOT Part of Salvation but rather it is the First step in our Christian Walk of Obedience. And a truly born again Christians will WANT TO WALK IN OBEDIENCE TO OUR LORD,

1 Corinthians 12:12-13 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For as the body is one and has many parts, and all the parts of that body, though many, are one body—so also is Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body (that is not Christian Water Baptism) —whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Colossians 2:6 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord (that is Salvation), continue to live in him, (Walk in obedience)


1 John 2:5-6 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. (not Salvation is perfected but rather the LOVE OF GOD is perfected in him.) By this we know that we are in Him.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. (Christian Water Baptism is part of that WALK of Obedience because we LOVE HIM.)

John 14:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

You speak of baptism as though you just took a bath, you disgrace Gods word.

Peter said water baptism saves :

1 Peter 3:20-21 (NKJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. [SUP]21 [/SUP]There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Like water washed away the sins of the world, now (an antitype) washes away our individual sins, then he CLEARS UP, WHAT YOU REFUSE TO SEE, "NOT THE REMOVAL OF FILTH OF THE FLESH" so this is not a BATH. it is a "spiritual cleansing by the Holy Spirit" the "answer of a good conscience toward God".

Then notice he says "through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" what does he mean by that? Paul clears that up. :

Romans 6:3-5 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:


But you have sinners saved, you think all one must do is believe...

Again, Paul "believed" on the road to Damascus, but he was not saved when he believed, he was not sinless until he got there :


Acts 22:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

 

[Jabberjaw]

THERE YOU GO AGAIN TOTALLY LEAVING LOVE OUT OF THE EQUATION. Our works are NECESSARY to validate OUR LOVE FOR HIM, not our need for Salvation.

John 14:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

There you go again? which is it? you are saved without works? or you cannot be saved without works? you keep changing, once you say "all you need to do is believe to be saved, works are not necessary" then you turn right around and say "you cannot stay saved unless you do works"

And if you don't validate your love for Him? you know validating your love for him is works...

 

[Cassian]

You speak of baptism as though you just took a bath, you disgrace Gods word.

Peter said water baptism saves :

1 Peter 3:20-21 (NKJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. [SUP]21 [/SUP]There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Like water washed away the sins of the world, now (an antitype) washes away our individual sins, then he CLEARS UP, WHAT YOU REFUSE TO SEE, "NOT THE REMOVAL OF FILTH OF THE FLESH" so this is not a BATH. it is a "spiritual cleansing by the Holy Spirit" the "answer of a good conscience toward God".

Then notice he says "through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" what does he mean by that? Paul clears that up. :

Romans 6:3-5 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:


But you have sinners saved, you think all one must do is believe...

Again, Paul "believed" on the road to Damascus, but he was not saved when he believed, he was not sinless until he got there :


Acts 22:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

If one holds to any false teaching, the primary task is to ignore scripture as a whole, denigrate other teachings of scripture, or just demonize it. I think you can see it is working well with them.

 

[homwardbound]

this has nothing to do with the topic either, but let me ask you a question. Are people who became believers the only human beings that were ungodly?

For all have sinned and in need of the Savior for new life in the Spirit not the flesh, for all when first born of the flesh are Born Son's of Adam and need to be Son's of God; whom today can only be worshiped in Spirit and truth.
And the only way to get this born again life here and now in the Spirit of God is from Father through the Son, by the resurrected Christ in Spirit and truth, God the Father gives this to us and we walk by Faith as Son already did and showed us how in trusting Father and giving no credit to self for what we do or not do?
I am nothing, God is everything, me by Father through Son entering his courts with thanksgiving and praise, and thus going in and out to pass out the good news and not be an editor of this good news as many are editors and have left their first love, that Father is trying to remind us of, that we did nothing to be saved of or in ourselves Father by his Mercy did it for us to be glad and rejoice in as the ninevites did when they repented and Jonah was angry overt it afterwards, thus God dealt with that self righteous attitude of Jonah, me watching out to not be a Jonah

 

[homwardbound]

Very egotistical,

You have proven anything, He finished His work, now we need to do ours, you haven't shown one shred of scripture that has not been ripped out of its context to prove your position, you have not proven that Jesus will obey the Gospel for you...

It is not that Christ will obey the Gospel for us, it is that he did, past tense and that is what we today are grateful for.
As Kind David said and he was looking forward when he said this, (Psalms 100:4) and today we are looking back saying this, which is not what you are getting, yet might be on your way, only Father knoweth, been in your shoes of striving, stressing and worrying to no avail and came to the end of the energy of my own flesh and God showed me God's Mercy to me and so in response here is Mercy to you, in all you do
Love you deeper than the Mississippi. knowing God's love is even deeper as I learn this deeper and deeper every day that passes all understanding to flesh and is only revealed in Spirit, being in Faith for Father to teach me in Spirit and truth
Do you see what is said to you here?

 

[homwardbound]

That choice alone is righteous works that Jesus will not do for you.

Jesus, friend has past tense already done it all for me and you. do you not believe this? If n ot then you are not saved are you?

 

[homwardbound]

Since we all have received grace, and you say we don't have to do anything, then since the Cross there has not been a man unsaved, and since the blood of the cross flowed both ways, there is not a man that's been born that is not saved right now...

If it wasn't so serious, it would actually be funny.

not all have received this grace through Faith many are in metamorphosis to being what is born again, that have chose to believe, will you last through the metamorphosis you are in? Have you made the conscious choice to believe no matter what happens to you here on earth, good or bad?
If you have you are on your way to see truth in whole and be free in God's love that God imputes to us who beleive God and see it is all God, that we are nothing more than vessels to be used by God, period
Otherwise why did the disciples have to wait for the Holy Spirit of truth to speak to the crowd through them?

 

[Cassian]

For all have sinned and in need of the Savior for new life in the Spirit not the flesh, for all when first born of the flesh are Born Son's of Adam and need to be Son's of God; whom today can only be worshiped in Spirit and truth.
And the only way to get this born again life here and now in the Spirit of God is from Father through the Son, by the resurrected Christ in Spirit and truth, God the Father gives this to us and we walk by Faith as Son already did and showed us how in trusting Father and giving no credit to self for what we do or not do?
I am nothing, God is everything, me by Father through Son entering his courts with thanksgiving and praise, and thus going in and out to pass out the good news and not be an editor of this good news as many are editors and have left their first love, that Father is trying to remind us of, that we did nothing to be saved of or in ourselves Father by his Mercy did it for us to be glad and rejoice in as the ninevites did when they repented and Jonah was angry overt it afterwards, thus God dealt with that self righteous attitude of Jonah, me watching out to not be a Jonah

A lot of words that I'm not sure you actually answed the question, except the first two words, "all have sinned".
the simple answer was NO.

 

[homwardbound]

And possibly JOB.

Job 1:8 (ASV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And Jehovah said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job? for there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and turneth away from evil.

Thanks for this lead off and if I may post a little more support to the truth?

For Job had Faith in Father knowing and stating he knew his:
Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

Never cursed God and this had nothing to do with sinning or not, had to do with what God said to Satan Job will not curse God and Job did not curse God. So i know I don't and i think you do not either from your posts I gather this, yet from other I gather differently in the great hype from the devil putting flesh above Spirit and setting self up as look at me and watch my smoke attitudes to God that will never please God the creator of all, as what was said to Eve you will be like God and man became flesh, being As if God, and is why no flesh will ever please God outside of Christ's flesh that has past tense pleased God and we know are in the new covenant of God in love to all, thank you Jesus.
Love you as well as all the same as God has shown me, that if I just love those that love me, how am I any different from anyone else?

 

[Cassian]

Jesus, friend has past tense already done it all for me and you. do you not believe this? If n ot then you are not saved are you?

this is why your comment is NOT relevent. Jesus saved (past tense) all men from death and sin. this is the great Gift of salvation Christ grants to all men. This is NOT the the discussion which is about why Christ saved mankind from death and sin. We are discussing the purpose of man being created, and then redeemed from death and sin. This aspect of our salvation is a free offer to be united with Him, now and for eternity. That union is entered into by faith, and believers are then being saved through faith.

 

[homwardbound]

If water baptism is not necesary why did peter say God forbid water then commenced to baptize corneleous whole house even jesus commisioned it look at chapter 19 of acts these fellows did not know the baptism of jesus or of the Holy Ghost the apostles deemed it necesary obviously it was necesary to salvation as it is part of the faith you must study the faith of the apostles and nobody tell me i am wrong as i know what i speak of is truth best preppare as the face of the entire christianship is getting a makeover much needed, jist before destruction there is a huge blessing coming

Brother investigate this all in truth, was Cornelius's Family baptized by God in the Holy Spirit before any water Baptism?
Yes and so what would be a thankful conscience before God to do? Water Baptism right. Was it necessary, i mean God imputed God's righteousness in them as Peter by the Spirit of God spoke right, before any water Baptism? and thus when Peter though this over and rehearsed it he saw what?
Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Read it all in context from when he entered Cornelius's house that was according to law unlawful to enter a Gentile House, and yet God had him enter it, what is up with that?
Peter had three dreams before that and saw the unclean animals in it and heard God say Peter kill and eat, and Peter said no Lord he can't and God told Peter not to call anything unclean that the Lord has cleaned
And even from Paul in Romans 14 said the he know and is convinced that all things are clean of itself.
What does that tell us?
Does that say it is what I do with what is clean, that kills, steals and destroys others whom Christ died for to make clean as well. And all has been cleansed by Christ at the death of Christ to Father

Yet is to you it is unclean and to another what is unclean to you is not unclean to them, all for whom Christ died

praying you get this truth in loving all no matter and stopping any dogmatic attitudes we all get from our flesh

For Salvation is a free gift from Father through Son period is it not? Any work added that one has to do, makes a gift no longer a gift

 

[homwardbound]

To the finished works He did was the cross , this was to provide a way to your redemption but now that you have confessed the faith in your heart it is time to put to rest your old life , how you think how you view things How you behave and do things and take the new life wich He has given you and through the gift of the Holy Ghost using the Holy scriptures as a guide to sanctification denying all self as it is necesary that you die that He may live for you through you clean in all aspect that one day you may be perfect as He is for His pleasure , that it shows that it was done out of love and do not say im wrong for exhorting you to live a pleasing life to Our Lord God as this is a good thing to do .

Please tell me how anyone that believes God in Son's work can improve on what Son has done, here it is in scripture
I tried and came to the end of me trying to be, anyone else see that they can't improve on perfect, to see what they need is the new life a gift from God through finalizing they are past tense forgiven by God and God alone through Christ? is then when God shows us the free gift in new life in Spirit and truth?

Colossians 1:22 in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight

So is this completed in us by trying to imitate Christ a copycat so to speak?
Or by belief and reckon self born after Adam as a God in the flesh to die with Christ in the flesh at the cross where he died for us past tense?
And if we do finalize we by Father are forgiven through Christ, think we might see the new life Father gives in Spirit and truth by the resurrected Christ? Maybe?
Scripture all over the place is written as so, yet only God can reveal this to you, I can't, trusting Father to do so as Father sees fit to do,
Thank you and love to all

 

[homwardbound]

i agree.
we hold different view, but the outcome is the same.

God is Merciful to all, and wants us to see this over sacrifice, if we are willing to learn from God and not be dogamatic.
how can one learn anything if set in their ways they have been taught.
If one is in bondage and many are, so if anyone reading here is. It might be time to investigate what is truth over error
Why? Because error any error in what I think is truth and see me in bondage then truth has not yet set me free has it?
So anytime I am in bondage I seek to find out what I have attached to that is keeping me in bondage which is error and Father is always Faithful to show me, and everyone who chooses to beleive Father and willing to learn from Father truth over error. So we take in all things said to us and others sifting all through pour inner man where we get truth and errors separated and are set free, being wise as serpents and harmless as doves, not attacking back in flesh dogamtic attitudes
love to all as Hoffco says well, thanks for this Doug

 

[homwardbound]

Here enough is said, you think when it comes to "salvation" that "our Lord did it all", if this was so, then we would have no works to do, everyone is saved from the time our Lord gave Him self on the cross, every man forward and backward of the cross is "saved".

Have you actually listened to what you have said? or what someone has told you? because this idea is not in the bible.

The people believed when they asked Peter earlier :

Acts 2:37 (KJV) Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

See that "do?", Peter did not say "Nothing, our Lord did it for you, just be good boys and girls from now on".

NO, he told them what they MUST DO : "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins"

And what does Peter tell them then? :

Acts 2:40 (KJV) And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

"Save yourselves" in other words "be baptized and wash away those sins" and then those that received the words of Peter were SAVED (baptized) :

Acts 2:41 (KJV) Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.


By Grace Christ died on the cross for ALL men, BUT YOU MUST OBEY HIM to "SAVE YOURSELVES", HE DID HIS PART, WE DO OURS, THAT IS WHAT MAKES A COVENANT (AGREEMENT) THAT RECONCILES US TO GOD.

You need to throw away your man made manuals, creed, catechism's or confessions of faith, and read your bible.

Every one is Potentially saved from the crucifixion of Christ potentially, since he did die for all and cleansed all in Father's sight not yours or any man's sight can see this.
This was done for Father, to not see sin any longer and be mad at us for sin and kill us because of sin. So Father potentially can live in us and through us by Faith in the finished work of Son. teaching us how to walk by Faith and not do those sinful behaviors any more seeing how stupid that behavior in not loving others is, whether they believe or not.
Christ did die for all, leaving only one thing left to believe or not to believe, period. By belief to be transferred from death to life in Spirit and truth by the resurrected Christ here and now today by belief
For Father today:

• John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
  John 4:22-24 (in Context) John 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
• John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
  John 4:23-25 (in Context) John 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
• John 14:17 even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in yo

 

[homwardbound]

You speak of baptism as though you just took a bath, you disgrace Gods word.

Peter said water baptism saves :

1 Peter 3:20-21 (NKJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. [SUP]21 [/SUP]There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
And you say this below, and above it says no:
Like water washed away the sins of the world, now (an antitype) washes away our individual sins, then he CLEARS UP, WHAT YOU REFUSE TO SEE, "NOT THE REMOVAL OF FILTH OF THE FLESH" so this is not a BATH. it is a "spiritual cleansing by the Holy Spirit" the "answer of a good conscience toward God".

I see your well crafted twist here in scripture, very good flesh work there, thank you

Then notice he says "through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" what does he mean by that? Paul clears that up. :

Romans 6:3-5 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized, (baptized here is Holy Ghost Baptism, not water) into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

For John baptized with water and Father baptizes with Holy Spirit and with fire to burn out our flesh that is evil from being born son's of Adam in flesh, transferred form death to new life in Spirit and truth only as today since we are in unredeemed flesh born as Son's of Fallen Adam

But you have sinners saved, you think all one must do is believe...Again, Paul "believed" on the road to Damascus, but he was not saved when he believed, he was not sinless until he got there :

You are in the energy of your own flesh and I commend you to try to see the whole truth, you will when you come to the end of the energy of your own flesh trying to be approved by it
Acts 22:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

By Christ sins are already dealt with washed away by the blood not the water

The above is in colored in from me and you in black in response to the twist of truth from what I see whether you see this or not
your free choice to what is truth and what is not, by God through Christ i am free, and know this and remain humble in this, no longer in worry or bondage to sin, whether I sin or not in the future, I can't predict that. So I rest in today and do not be concerned about future knowing I have Christ Jesus as my advocate for all sins, and as you are trying to say do not sin and you are trying to do this from the energy of your own flesh, I commend you in not wanting to sin again, as that is true for all that do beleive God and you can't, nor anyone can, not possible to work from our flesh and be perfect, if it ever were then Christ came for nothing?, why because it is unredeemed and can not be perfect, only Christ in his redemption for us does this

 

[homwardbound]

If one holds to any false teaching, the primary task is to ignore scripture as a whole, denigrate other teachings of scripture, or just demonize it. I think you can see it is working well with them.

Praying for us for we all shall stand at the Judgment seat of Christ, I think we all have said what need be said and is for us all to investigate truth over error, going into our closets and asking for truth over error and be set free from bondage as many are trapped in it, by self works above God works, even though we might think it is God's works that we are doing.
Now to me that depends on whether or not I am feeling good as in God has got God's eye on me saying wow Howard what great works you are doing and gaining pats on the back as heathen do, getting the only reward Christ that they will get, when ones motive is selfish.
Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Matthew 6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.



Matthew 6:16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

 

[homwardbound]

A lot of words that I'm not sure you actually answed the question, except the first two words, "all have sinned".
the simple answer was NO.

So my ? to you is are you now sinless in your unredeemed flesh?
or from God by Faith through Son see you as sinless to train and grow you up in God's Spirit, dead to your flesh?

 

[homwardbound]

this is why your comment is NOT relevent. Jesus saved (past tense) all men from death and sin. this is the great Gift of salvation Christ grants to all men. This is NOT the the discussion which is about why Christ saved mankind from death and sin. We are discussing the purpose of man being created, and then redeemed from death and sin. This aspect of our salvation is a free offer to be united with Him, now and for eternity. That union is entered into by faith, and believers are then being saved through faith.

And all works done in and through us are as well by Faith, is this truth or error?

 

[homwardbound]

this is why your comment is NOT relevent. Jesus saved (past tense) all men from death and sin. this is the great Gift of salvation Christ grants to all men. This is NOT the the discussion which is about why Christ saved mankind from death and sin. We are discussing the purpose of man being created, and then redeemed from death and sin. This aspect of our salvation is a free offer to be united with Him, now and for eternity. That union is entered into by faith, and believers are then being saved through faith.

Actually is relevant to how one walks either by Faith in Christ in the Spirit of Father new life?
Or by one's own decieving flesh that Paul says:
Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

And this is what you are putting confidence in Flesh. So if you must continue then please go forth for I trust God if you are God's to cause you to stand, for you are not as of yet standing in 100% truth from God who died for you before you were ever born to put Faith in God and not one's own flesh and you so triumphantly claim, when you are a different person than what you are claiming to be your behind closed doors attitude show this as truth

I know of no man that can hold two faces one to the crowd and the other to self hiding behind closed doors as for no one else to see, without becoming perplexed as to which one is truth and thus there it is, truth hits and one truly repents and is saved or they continue on their masquerade, in flesh of the tree of death, that we all are born in after the similitude of Adam and Eve

 

[Kerry]

Actually is relevant to how one walks either by Faith in Christ in the Spirit of Father new life?
Or by one's own decieving flesh that Paul says:
Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

And this is what you are putting confidence in Flesh. So if you must continue then please go forth for I trust God if you are God's to cause you to stand, for you are not as of yet standing in 100% truth from God who died for you before you were ever born to put Faith in God and not one's own flesh and you so triumphantly claim, when you are a different person than what you are claiming to be your behind closed doors attitude show this as truth

I know of no man that can hold two faces one to the crowd and the other to self hiding behind closed doors as for no one else to see, without becoming perplexed as to which one is truth and thus there it is, truth hits and one truly repents and is saved or they continue on their masquerade, in flesh of the tree of death, that we all are born in after the similitude of Adam and Eve

Have some tea Home, but I feel you.