Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[VCO]

Both of these texts the eternal life is conditioned upon believing. Believing is in the present tense, active and continuing. If you continue to believe, every day until death or Christ comes, you have eternal life. Never, is it had been saved, will recieve eternal life.

Find the text you need to actually support your premise.
There seems to be two premises.... one is saved by faith only.
Second, one is saved (past tense) with a one-time mental ascent of faith.

so, far, you have produced none that say either one.

STRANGE, because WE teach and believe that Believing Is part of the Gift of Salvation. If you Believe receiving HIM as LORD, and that means committed to submitting to HIM as MASTER, following in obedience. THAT SAVING FAITH WAS PUT IN YOU BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. And what Part of HAS (PASTE TENSE) ETERNAL LIFE do you not understand.

2 Timothy 1:8-9 (NKJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Looks like you are a little LATE to add anything to your Salvation, IF you are saved.

Better check your definition of what SALVATION really is.

 

[Spokenpassage]

Does anyone see it like this?

 

[Cassian]

STRANGE, because WE teach and believe that Believing Is part of the Gift of Salvation. If you Believe receiving HIM as LORD, and that means committed to submitting to HIM as MASTER, following in obedience. THAT SAVING FAITH WAS PUT IN YOU BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. And what Part of HAS (PASTE TENSE) ETERNAL LIFE do you not understand.

Where does it say that the HOLY Spirit believed for you?
Faith as well as everything else we have is given to us as a Gift. Every man has faith, the question is will every individual exercise that faith to believe. It is the WORK OF GOD, that everyone believes. He cannot make you believe but He also cannot make you fail to believe, or keep you from rejecting Him. Those are the decisions of our free will.

2 Timothy 1:8-9 (NKJV)

[SUP] [/SUP]Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,
[SUP]9 [/SUP]who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Looks like you are a little LATE to add anything to your Salvation, IF you are saved.

Better check your definition of what SALVATION really is.

You are conflating to different aspects here as wll. Christ saved all men by grace, from death and sin.
Because He saved us from death and sin, (the fall) he can call all men to unite with Him by faith calling us not by anything we did, but by His work. He is calling you. He is calling every single person to believe in Him. By believing we might have eternal life. But believing is again, always present tense, active, and continuing.

Another fishing expedition. You have indicated on several other posts that you have no understanding whatsoever what Christ accomplished for mankind by His Incarnation and resurrection. How could you possibly understand ones personal salvation when you don't even understand the why, or even understand the fall. Our past tense salvation is from the fall, the condemnation to Adam. The part that man is incapable of doing, and why we even needed Christ in the first place.

 

[VCO]

Could you explain to me just how Christ saved you on the Cross as an individual?

Christ died for MY SINS. It is My SINS that put Him on the Cross.

That is what my vision about being at the Cross the night I was SAVED was all about.

If you have never made it that PERSONAL, no wonder you do not understand.

THAT is what mourning of our Sinfulness is all about.

Have you ever been to the Cross? If not, GO!

And try to tell HIM it was not your sins that put HIM there.

Matthew 5:4 (ASV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

Psalm 34:18 (HCSB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] The LORD is near the brokenhearted; He saves those crushed in spirit.

You've never mourned over your sinfulness, have you?

 

[VCO]

Where does it say that the HOLY Spirit believed for you?
Faith as well as everything else we have is given to us as a Gift. Every man has faith, the question is will every individual exercise that faith to believe. It is the WORK OF GOD, that everyone believes. He cannot make you believe but He also cannot make you fail to believe, or keep you from rejecting Him. Those are the decisions of our free will.



You are conflating to different aspects here as wll. Christ saved all men by grace, from death and sin.
Because He saved us from death and sin, (the fall) he can call all men to unite with Him by faith calling us not by anything we did, but by His work. He is calling you. He is calling every single person to believe in Him. By believing we might have eternal life. But believing is again, always present tense, active, and continuing.

Another fishing expedition. You have indicated on several other posts that you have no understanding whatsoever what Christ accomplished for mankind by His Incarnation and resurrection. How could you possibly understand ones personal salvation when you don't even understand the why, or even understand the fall. Our past tense salvation is from the fall, the condemnation to Adam. The part that man is incapable of doing, and why we even needed Christ in the first place.

You know Cassian, I think you are right about something, you really are not SAVED are you?

You never have surrendered control to Jesus Christ as your LORD and MASTER, because you are still lord of your own life, aren't you?

You really never have been born again, have you?

You really are a modern day Pharisee, aren't you?

 

[VCO]

a direct contradiction. If you and I are in a room, but you leave, does it mean you were never in the room either? What the text is saying is that these particular persons, publicly stated that they were leaving. Most believers do not so state and to us remain as believers, even though God sees that they are not. But that is not what scripture is speaking about. It is speaking to each of us and we need to make sure our faith is continuing. If we lose faith, we cannot be saved.
. . .
A lot of texts, but none, not a single one every says we are saved by faith only. Also, not a single one even says we have finite, carved in stone eternal life by believing in the past, but always in the present tense, active and continuing.


You won't find any either. There are none.

Something you should know Cassian, I absolutely believe in being able to support ALL of my beliefs, with Scripture that says EXACTLY what my beliefs are. WHY? Because I believe without any doubt, that GOD is intelligent enough to say exactly what HE means, and means what HE says; and that ALL SCRIPTURE from Gen.1:1 THROUGH Rev. 22:21 was inspired by GOD. He you even notice how your theology forces you to constantly make up excuses about why a verse or verses do not mean exactly what they say. I said it exactly right, PAUL told us if they lost their faith (went out from us) they proved in doing so that they NEVER were of us. That was inspired BY GOD HIMSELF, and I believe HIM, while you make up excuses NOT TO BELIEVE WHAT GOD SAID.

In your closing statement YOU change what I said, and imply I said "by faith only" which is purely what your erroneous presuppositions have brainwashed you to believe we teach and believe. SCRIPTURE SAYS, we are SAVED BY GRACE, NEVER BY FAITH, but THROUGH FAITH the vehicle transporting that GRACE ONLY SALVATION (undeserved) into our understanding. AND IT GOES ON to say THAT KIND OF FAITH is NOT OF OURSELVES, PERIOD, it is a gift of GOD. I told you once before, you can stop patting yourself on the back now.

John 10:28 (ESV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

 

[VCO]

You are trying to sell that load of FALSE DOCTRINES to the wrong person. Before I was SAVED I really wanted to believe that acknowledging the stories about Jesus were True, was enough to make me a Christian. HOWEVER, on two of my three attempts at suicide, I STOOD IN THE GATES OF HADES/HELL ready to walk in. I had the pistol against my head with the trigger half pulled, AND SHEAR TERROR of KNOWING HELL WAS REAL AND FOREVER, AND THAT I WAS ABOUT TO WALK IN, shook me to the very core of my being, causing to me to STOP! I didn't care if I hurt my family or my friends, OR MYSELF, I JUST WANTED TO CEASE TO EXIST. That TERROR was way beyond "I am about to die", and way beyond the kind of fear a mad man holding a knife to my throat could ever cause. So DON'T tell me "Christ is not really saving you from hell."; because I HAVE BEEN THERE TWICE. Your unbelief is NOT my problem, it is YOURS.

John 3:36 (HCSB)
[SUP]36 [/SUP] The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

Implying THAT WRATH was ALWAYS THERE, prior to becoming SAVED.

Romans 5:10 (NIV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Being born from above is NOT salvation. It is entrance into Christ, it is baptism. Baptism regenerates one's relationship with Christ. It puts one into Christ so that salvation can take place. Faith gives you the RIGHT to be a child of God, an adopted one, but that RIGHT is lost when one does not obey, does not become conformed to His Likeness.
Born of God means to be made spiritually alive, placed into a relationship. It does not mean salvation, since man can very easily die spiritually. Just return to sinning habitually again, and you have died spiritually, and can no longer be a son.

Religion.

It is your downfall.

Been born again is being adopted BY GOD HIMSELF. (not baptism in water)

You are made alive, because your sins have been washed away, This your condemnation is removed. You are saved from wrath.

You CAN NOT DO ANY GOOD. Unless your given the power of God to do those works. Period

Get out of religion and Find God

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is the hope that generates the faith. You have everything backwards.

lol. funny, I have it backwards, but i agree. now explain that!

As I said, if I have no hope. I can have no faith. so again..

Scripture gives untold numbers of texts to upon one's faith. All meaningless, if one is already saved by some past, one moment of faith.

who said anything about one moment of faith? You either trust God or you do not. If you do not. you have no faith, if you do, that faith is not going to fade away.. yet again, you prove you do not understand what true faith is.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So you got lazy as well. Do your own homework. Stay up to date.

I am up to date,'

you have never answered.

so are you going to answer? or prove yourself lacking? why are you so afraid??

 

[Cassian]

Christ died for MY SINS. It is My SINS that put Him on the Cross.

Every man's sins put him on the Cross. Christ propitiated the sin of the world I John 2:2. That does not save you as an individual. However, if you think that saved you, then it also saved everyone else and all will be in heaven.

That is what my vision about being at the Cross the night I was SAVED was all about.

One cannot be savedwithout the Cross, but the Cross, did not save you as an individual. Christ performing a sacrifice for sin does not save you in the particular.

If you have never made it that PERSONAL, no wonder you do not understand.

It is not about making it personal. It does not become personal until one believes, because then it is that Christ forgives your sin because you repented and confessed your sin. The sacrifice of itself does not just automatically save anyone. What it actually did was freed mankind from the bondage to sin. Since Christ defeated death by which we were condemned, now man is going to be held liable for his sin. Sin has become man's responsibility now.

THAT is what mourning of our Sinfulness is all about.

Have you ever been to the Cross? If not, GO!

And try to tell HIM it was not your sins that put HIM there.

AGain, everyone's sins were there, not just yours. Even those that don't believe, their sins were there as well. Christ propitiated the sin of the world, He performed ONE sacrifice that will be sufficient to forgive all sins.

Matthew 5:4 (ASV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

Psalm 34:18 (HCSB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]The LORD is near the brokenhearted; He saves those crushed in spirit.

You've never mourned over your sinfulness, have you?

This leads one to believe, have faith in Christ, but again, many who start out with pure, good faith, can and will depart that faith as scripture so clearly portrays. Unless one continues to believe until the end, one cannot be saved.

so the Cross in and of itself does not save you as an individual relative to one's relationship with Christ. It makes it possible which was the whole purpose of Christ saving the world from death and sin. Freeing mankind from the former bondage to death and sin. Man is now freed again to choose life or death (spiritual) but he must remain faithful in all things to inherit eternal life with Christ eternally.

 

[Cassian]

Religion.

It is your downfall.

Been born again is being adopted BY GOD HIMSELF. (not baptism in water)

You are made alive, because your sins have been washed away, This your condemnation is removed. You are saved from wrath.

You CAN NOT DO ANY GOOD. Unless your given the power of God to do those works. Period

Get out of religion and Find God

Nothing above is actually scriptural. You are making assertions based on your interpretation of scripture.

Baptism from the very first, Acts 2 at Pentecost was for entrance into the Kingdom, John 3:5, It was commanded for those in the Church evangelizing to baptize all, Matt 28:19, and in Mark 16:16 one must be baptised in order to be saved. It has been the practice and understanding of the Church for 2000 years. There has never been a false teaching of any man during those 2000 years that thought it meant differently.
This is why your understanding of who a believer is becomes invalid. Baptism in scripture is the sign of membership in Christ, and is the scriptural definition of a believer.

 

[Cassian]

lol. funny, I have it backwards, but i agree. now explain that!

As I said, if I have no hope. I can have no faith. so again..

who said anything about one moment of faith? You either trust God or you do not. If you do not. you have no faith, if you do, that faith is not going to fade away.. yet again, you prove you do not understand what true faith is.

however true faith as you engender it is not even known until one dies. Any time in between his faith can falter and can stop all together, and then one cannot be saved. This is why your whole theology regarding faith is a myth.
Which is why faith must continue to be valid. The works of faith, works of righteousness validates one faith as being true. However, scripture clearly teaches that faith can fail, one can lose faith, One can become unfaithful, and thus, if not repented of before death, cannot be saved. It is NOT about having believed at some time, or for a short time, and one still is saved.

 

[Hoffco]

I"t is clearly taught in the Bible that no one is saved in their sin ,they must leave their sins behind when they enter the narrow gate leading to Heaven. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[francina]

I"t is clearly taught in the Bible that no one is saved in their sin ,they must leave their sins behind when they enter the narrow gate leading to Heaven. Love to all, Hoffco

God bless you. We are saved by the washing AND REGENERATION of the Holy Spirit. There is no salvation without regeneration. Also, we are transformed by the renewing of our minds with the Word of God. So the Holy Spirit works WITH us. Salvation is not a state of being, the first church called it 'The Way' for a reason. Jesus said IF we remain in Him and He remains in us .... then we are true disciples. Once again the word disciples means a follower of the WAY or teachings of a guru. We live like Him in other words. If you are not living like Him, you are a false believer. The promise of the New Covenant was that no longer will His people disobey God, no longer will the law be written on stone tablets. Our hearts of stone will be removed and replace with hearts of flesh. He will write His LAWS (giving us works to do) on our hearts and put a New Spirit within us. Then We Will Obey Him! You are not saved because you simply believe what Jesus did. You must believe what He said. He said if you do not Do what I say I am not your Lord. He said ONLY those who DO the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom. Jesus said so much about works - that all disagreement with the title of this topic is really pitifully ridiculous.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

however true faith as you engender it is not even known until one dies. Any time in between his faith can falter and can stop all together, and then one cannot be saved. This is why your whole theology regarding faith is a myth.

sorry scripture states you are in serious error/

2 Timothy 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

Since the promise of eternal life is HIS promise., based n HIS work. to deny his PROMISE would be to deny himself.

as paul said to timothy, in the Hope of eternal life, which God, who can not lie, promised before time began.

if I have no hope. I have no faith.

you church teached so hope. your church teaches youe hope is in self not God. and thats a sorry hope to have.

 

[francina]

View attachment 77410

Does anyone see it like this?

You don't believe the testimony God made about His Son. You employ arguments instead of trumpeting the good news of the gospel. Yes we are weak but He .... IN us is strong! What the law could not do, it could not transform us, it could not make us new creations.... God DID in sending His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh. Sin, therefore, has no power over us because the Spirit of Grace, the Mighty Holy Spirit, the Spirit that raised Christ from the dead, that grace is ours. You have no faith if you don't believe this! We don't believe that Jesus loved us so much He poured out His blood to help us whiles we continue to sin?! We are to believe the gospel! He came to destroy the works of the devil and the devil sinneth from the beginning. Anyone who claims to know Him yet still walks in darkness is a LIAR. This is how we know the children of God from the children of the devil. I continue to hear of believers struggling with pornography. I used to be addicted. I continually fought doubt that I could or would be free and lifted up the Word of God about Jesus. I am in Him, sin has no power over me! I have been free for years. This is where faith comes in. We are saved by faith in His Name. The Name implies all that He is. This little cartoon is not the gospel, it will not give anyone faith to do what God tells us - to be Holy as He is holy. This cartoon is a lie. We are not supposed to focus on ourselves but on Jesus and His Word. His Word made the universe and, as the angel told Mary, it has self fulfilling power. If you preached what Jesus, Paul, John the Baptist - all the prophets preached, someone will have faith to be righteous. No one is righteous by the blood of Christ alone. 1John 3 Do Not Be Deceived, only those who DO what is right are RIGHTEOUS. You can not be Righteous without doing. You can not be a disciple without doing. You can not be transformed without doing. You can not be the sheep without doing. You are just a goat headed for hell, deceived into thinking Jesus paid it all, I have nothing to do.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I"t is clearly taught in the Bible that no one is saved in their sin ,they must leave their sins behind when they enter the narrow gate leading to Heaven. Love to all, Hoffco

so your perfect? You are sinless?

If what you claim is true, NO ONE will get to heaven. period.

 

[Sirk]

so your perfect? You are sinless?

If what you claim is true, NO ONE will get to heaven. period.

I agree with this. We are BEING saved. It is like mining for a precious metal. We put on the helmut and get to work with the power of the Holy Spirit and God's word guiding us into the deep places in our heart and separating the dross. We are being refined to spend eternity in Heaven with God. Remember, there is no sin in Heaven and God cannot associate at all with sin. We are being made perfect in Christ Jesus.

 

[Jabberjaw]

sorry scripture states you are in serious error/

[/B]2 Timothy 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

Since the promise of eternal life is HIS promise., based n HIS work. to deny his PROMISE would be to deny himself.

as paul said to timothy, in the Hope of eternal life, which God, who can not lie, promised before time began.

if I have no hope. I have no faith.

you church teached so hope. your church teaches youe hope is in self not God. and thats a sorry hope to have.
[/COLOR]

Context context context, take the verse before 13 into the context :

2 Timothy 2:11-12 (NKJV) [SUP]11 [/SUP] This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him. [SUP]12[/SUP] If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.