Does the Bible teach Eternal Security

next_step · Jan 24, 2009

There are many more reasons for a false renewal. However, you confess for the sake of sanctification and for the sake of the relationship with your heavenly father. If we know who HE is we naturally would do this all. And like 1. John 2 says the little children know who the father is. That is one indication of a true renewal.

For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Hebrews 12

That is what we can expect. Another indication of the truth of a renewal. Those who continie belong to "us", those who believe until the end belong to "us". These thigns are proof. The works are proof as well.

MahogonySnail · Jan 24, 2009

I agree with next_step. Much of it should and does come naturally (or super-naturally) anyway.
Whichever view you take on this re: eternal security, the outcome is the same. I don't know many Calvinist who believe it's ok to sin, or that grace is a license to sin. Just as I don't know many non-Calvinist who would ever say their works are getting them to heaven, despite believing that works are necessary to show faith.

Although I do think Calvinism is a round-about way of looking at things based on an unrealistic view of God's sovereignty.
for example...

"if you aren't a christian anymore you must not have been a true christian", (given the benefit of hindsight of course. Does this also mean that since God rejected King Saul, King Saul wasn't truly a king and wasn't truly anointed?)

"if this or that happened it must have or have not been in God's will because God is sovereign" (can we really understand if something is or isn't God's will? , eg hurricane Katrina, God's judgement? or satan's attack?, or simply just nature doing its thing)

"if that person didn't convert that must mean God has not chosen them for salvation", ( or, God has chosen them for salvation, since Christ died for all, and they simply have not received it yet, remember the parable of the soil, planting seeds, watering, growth..give it time)

"if you believe then you must be one of the elect " (well, a person was elect only after, not before they believed)

But I think it's good that God's grace and power and ability is emphasised. Not all the fruit of the Calvinist doctrine is bad. It depends how a person takes it and what they do with it. Certainly some of the more extreme views leading towards ultra-Calvinism are not healthy and decidedly UN-christian. Goes against the very nature of God in desiring all to be saved. The teachings on grace, eternal security etc can have positive fruit if a person is conscientious and inclined to work for their salvation or are overly fearful about losing salvation.

NazariteNation · Jan 24, 2009

next_step said:

Come on guys, stop dancing around the issue! That issue being that there are many,MANY people out there, that you and I both would agree are not saved, who truly believe they are saved due to some unreal conclusions that they have drawn from your doctrine.

It is far better to teach pure repentance without this added "twist". That way there is no room for the unsaved to draw unrealistic conclusions.

"REPENT FOR THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS AT HAND!"

It's that simple! If it was good enough for John, Jesus and all of His Disciples then it is more than good enough for us. There's no need for special perks or bonus incentives. We're preachers & teachers of the gospel. Not used car salesmen.

NazariteNation · Jan 24, 2009

NazariteNation said:

This is not an issue of "I'm right and you're wrong!". If that we the case I would have left this conversation alone a long time ago. The issue is that REAL PEOPLE ARE GOING TO A REAL HELL! All because some people felt the need to fix something that wasn't broken in the first place.

GodSoldierForeverandever · Jan 24, 2009

you can't lose your eternal life
"For God has given us eternal life and this life is in his son Jesus Christ"
I don't really study the bible so i don't know what scripture this is but I know its in there

GodSoldierForeverandever · Jan 24, 2009

"For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works lest any man should boast"
Ephesians 2:8-9

NazariteNation · Jan 24, 2009

GodSoldierForeverandever said:

I'm not talking about the saved here people! I'm talking about those, who grew up hearing the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine, who may have repeated the prayer at some point in the past but were never sincere in the first place (and there are lot's of them!) however, they now assume they're saved but nothing could be further from the truth and their lifestyles show it. If you can't realize or accept that this does in deed happen then you all, who do appear to be sincere in your salvation, are every bit as deceived as they are!

Come on people, surely you are not that nieve to think that every single person who repeats a sinner's prayer is sincere? Add that to the fact that your doctrine says that no sin can separate you from God and you've got a bunch of sinners running around who believe they're holding a "get out of Hell free" card. I see this all of the time!

MahogonySnail · Jan 24, 2009

Is there any verse in the bible that demonstrates or shows someone praying a "sinners prayer". ?
Is there any verse in the bible that says a person must say or pray anything at all to be saved?

NazariteNation · Jan 24, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

*shaking head*

Exactly my point Mahogany! Repentance is a condition of the heart. You have preachers out there all time pushing this "If you repeat this simple prayer you will be saved" stuff all the time. What if a person recites that prayer but in his heart was never sincere. Add to that this doctrine that "no sin can separate you from God" and you've got a lot of folks running around out there who aren't saved thinking they can do whatever they want. It happens.

If this doesn't register with you folks, I don't know what will...

Baptistrw · Jan 24, 2009

netwattie said:

In regards to eternal security:

from a bible-believing, independent baptist:

Eternal Security verses: (there are heaps more also)

[FONT=&quot]Joh 10:28[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never ever perish, and not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Joh 10:29[/FONT][FONT=&quot] My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Eph 2:8[/FONT][FONT=&quot] For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Eph 2:9[/FONT][FONT=&quot] not of works, lest anyone should boast. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Rom 8:37[/FONT][FONT=&quot] But in all these things we more than conquer through Him who loved us. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Rom 8:38[/FONT][FONT=&quot] For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Rom 8:39[/FONT][FONT=&quot] nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. [/FONT]

(Eph 1:13-14) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

[FONT=&quot]1Co 3:11[/FONT][FONT=&quot] For any other foundation can no one lay than the one being laid, who is Jesus Christ. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1Co 3:12[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And if anyone builds on this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1Co 3:13[/FONT][FONT=&quot] each one's work shall be revealed. For the Day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try each one's work as to what kind it is. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1Co 3:14[/FONT][FONT=&quot] If anyone's work which he built remains, he shall receive a reward. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1Co 3:15[/FONT][FONT=&quot] If anyone's work shall be burned up, he shall suffer loss. But he shall be saved, yet so as by fire. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2 Co 1:22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.[/FONT]

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

(Eph 2:8-10) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

(1Pe 3:18-19) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

(2Co 1:21-22) Now he which establisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

(Eph 4:29-30) Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

(Rom 8:37-39) Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(1Pe 1:3-) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

(Rom 3:22-25) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Ro 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Colossians 2:11 &13-15

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

13

Amen. Good stuff there.

NazariteNation · Jan 24, 2009

NazariteNation said:

I guess so....

I can't believe what I'm reading. I'm done with this thread.

I'll be praying for you guys...

Baptistrw · Jan 24, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

When I was saved I never recited a prayer, I simply placed my trust in Christ to save me, which He did.

olivetree32 · Jan 24, 2009

hey Naz, i love you brother, and do understand what you are saying. But what was the topic in this room to start with. was it not about loosing your salvation. i know there are people who recieve Christ in Vain, and there was no real repentance, and the person kind of just walks away,i understand that. But was not the convo on if you were truley saved, you stay saved right? I thought thats what it was about. And the thing is, who are we to judge once a person falls away. The bible talks about the backslidder, man God loves that person and chases after that person. I have seen God at work so much in my life , in my walk, and when i was not walking like i should have been, He does not give up on us. Sure we can chose to harden our hearts agianst God, but God gives chance after chance. Are sin sets us apart from God for sure, and we do know the wages of sin is death. But i also know i serve a loving God who has taken me back even after my sin. And not to give a green light to go out sinning, no not at all. If anything we as believers should be striving each day to be closer to God in our walk, and letting Him transform us into His image and likness.

onwingsaseagles · Jan 24, 2009

I have 6 scenarios,
#1 A man was brought up in church his whole life and he has always believed in Jesus. He was baptized when he was 12 yrs old. Through his teenage years he confessed Christ as his Savior, yet he partied with his friends. As an adult he continued to go to church. He and his wife had premarital sex for years before their marriage. He raised his children in church, but he still drinks, smokes, and curses. He treats his family and others badly. He has not repented since his baptism, but he does believe himself to be a Christian.

#2 A man was not raised in church. After college he met a Christian girl and started attending church with her. He got saved and baptized, then married the Christian girl, but he never changed his lifestyle. He works hard during the week, but goes to the bar every Friday and Saturday night. He does attend church every Sunday morning. He pays tithes, raises his children in church. He has cheated on his wife a couple of times, but she does not know. He treats his family and others well, but he has not repented since he originally got saved.

#3 A man was raised in church. As an adult he left church, denounced his faith, and has nothing to do with God.

#4 A man was raised in church. As an adult he left the church and denounced his faith. Later in life he reconciled with God and got ordained. He now lives a very holy life and pastors a church.

#5 A man grew up in church. As an adult he left church, and lived a very sinful life. In his thirties he and his wife returned to church. They both repented, and he was re-baptized. After a few years they started going to church less and less. After about five years they are not going to church at all. He begins to drink again. He and his wife eventually divorced and he becomes an alcoholic and womanizer. He lives out his life never repenting nor going to church again.

#6 A man was not brought up in church. He has lived a very sinful life. In his late twenties he got saved. He then devoted his entire life to God. He also studies scripture and prays every day. In his thirties he marries a Christian woman. He is not perfect but he does put God first. When he makes mistakes he asks God to forgive him and he does his best to live a life pleasing to God.

How many of these people are going to make to heaven and which ones do you believe they are?

SonOfAdam · Jan 24, 2009

For those wishing a detailed study of this topic:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.a...subsetcat=series&subsetitem=Studies+in+Romans

olivetree32 · Jan 24, 2009

well onwings, i guess if the Lord would come back today, i can't say who He would leave behind, but probably and maybe the one's that arnt walking, or if there life were to end today, who are you Onwings to say, they would not make it to heaven??? You know people fall away Onwings, and that does not mean God is not patient with those people. God may not like the sinful lives they are living today, but they sound messed up like the rest of the world, and that is why we need Jesus so badley. IF you know of these people you can pray for them, and ask God to put other christians in there paths. You can not judge another mans heart. The people who struggle with alchole and drugs and sex and all that worldly stuff may have other issues you are not aware of and God is dealing with them on His own time. How sovereign are God is.
2Pe 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning [His] promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,* not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

this is what trips me out to, is that people on the outward appearance may seem fine, but we don't really know there heart, or how there doing with God you see, so must be very carfull not to judge another man.

olivetree32 · Jan 24, 2009

Luk 18:10"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.

Luk 18:11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men--extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.

Luk 18:12I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'

Luk 18:13And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise [his] eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'

Luk 18:14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified [rather] than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

onwingsaseagles · Jan 24, 2009

olivetree32 said:

well onwings, i guess if the Lord would come back today, i can't say who He would leave behind, but probably and maybe the one's that arnt walking, or if there life were to end today, who are you Onwings to say, they would not make it to heaven??? You know people fall away Onwings, and that does not mean God is not patient with those people. God may not like the sinful lives they are living today, but they sound messed up like the rest of the world, and that is why we need Jesus so badley. IF you know of these people you can pray for them, and ask God to put other christians in there paths. You can not judge another mans heart. The people who struggle with alchole and drugs and sex and all that worldly stuff may have other issues you are not aware of and God is dealing with them on His own time. How sovereign are God is.
2Pe 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning [His] promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,* not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

this is what trips me out to, is that people on the outward appearance may seem fine, but we don't really know there heart, or how there doing with God you see, so must be very carfull not to judge another man.

I emboldened your statement I it is very rude, Actually it was just something to make others think, these are fictional people they are not going to heaven or hell.

Of course God wants all to be saved but not all will be.

1still_waters · Jan 24, 2009

Hey guys I'm closing this topic. Both sides have been represented well and anything more is just both sides talking past each other. I'd ask that you go ahead and drop the topic.

Some people are starting to take the disagreements as personal attacks, so it's time to just shut it down for now and cool off.

Thanks for contributing.

Search

Does the Bible teach Eternal Security

next_step

Guest

MahogonySnail

Banned

NazariteNation

Guest

NazariteNation

Guest

GodSoldierForeverandever

Guest

GodSoldierForeverandever

Guest

NazariteNation

Guest

MahogonySnail

Banned

NazariteNation

Guest

Baptistrw

Guest

NazariteNation

Guest

Baptistrw

Guest

olivetree32

Senior Member

onwingsaseagles

Guest

SonOfAdam

Senior Member

olivetree32

Senior Member

olivetree32

Senior Member

onwingsaseagles

Guest

1still_waters

Guest