Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[eternally-gratefull]

Well lets see what the scriptures say, in revelations it says those that believe and follow Christ are part of the first resurrection, in which the second death has no power over. I would agree with you that God determines that, but the bible is God's word. So in God's word it says some one like Hitler will be thrown in the pit as well.

Here is the part that will blow your mind: Hitler was born and raised Catholic, he was baptized and went through confirmation, accepted and followed Jesus Christ calling himself a Christian and supporting Christian movements. It wasn't tell he was older that he turned his back on Jesus and tried to get rid of Christianity by installing his own religion.

It does not suprise me at all. Where do you think his extreme antisemetism came from (not to mention Luther's article on how a jew should be treated) It all was formed in the roman church.

Hid baptism was false. His faith was false and his allegience was false. So why would why he did suprise you?

He was unsaved before he joined the church, He was still unsaved after he joined the church, And his true self shown through, because he did not have the power of God to change, You will not find this in the roman catholic church.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No God does not disown anybody. This is why you can not believe in salvation lost because you always want to put it on God. Put the fault where it really belongs on man.

I have shown multiple times over the past few days by scripture, study reverence rather it come from study bibles or well known biblical scholars who spend most of their days studying scriptures in original text and translated text as well as asking God in their search for knowledge. They all disagree with the once saved always saved theology, showing in multiple scriptures how this is not biblical.

Many Many scholars which study in the greek and other stuff would disagree with those so called scholars.

Men still have a mind, They can study the greek, and if they do not want to change their mind, they will not.

You can show all the scholars you want, we can show other scholars which would disagree.

So would you like to discuss it. or have your scholars and other scholars which disagree with your scholars fight it out in the chat room? that seems like a silly and wastefull thing to do.

 

[Jabberjaw]

I pointed that out earlier and also used Stalin who was Orthodox. Was Orthodox until sometime in College when he met a man by the name of Carl Marx. It seems he switched religions also.
But the point is clearly that a believer can lose faith and can reject Christ at any time in his life time. There is no such thing as a one-time, mental, emotional affirmation of faith that grants immediate salvation. Salvation is inherited at the end based on man's faithfulness and becoming perfected.
But that went over their heads before and probably still will. It is mainly for the silent readers that they will be able to discern the difference.

It doesn't go over their heads, it goes against their doctrine.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It doesn't go over their heads, it goes against their doctrine.

look in the mirror This is you to a T

 

[Jabberjaw]

It doesn't go over their heads, it goes against their doctrine.

look in the mirror This is you to a T

I looked in the mirror, and guess what, it doesn't go against the doctrine I go by, the Doctrine of Christ.

(PS: I know when your in a corner, you call me flipper )

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I looked in the mirror, and guess what, it doesn't go against the doctrine I go by, the Doctrine of Christ.

(PS: I know when your in a corner, you call me flipper )

Your christ has a name, He is called Jabberjaw..

It certainly is not the christ of the bible. Your still not humble enough to give everything you have to him, You still want to keep some of it to yourself (your works) and take credit.

 

[LT]

let him go EG, let him go.
you know he'll take the bait, but why even struggle with trying to reel him in?
not a keeper.
just let it go.

 

[Cassian]

Many Many scholars which study in the greek and other stuff would disagree with those so called scholars.

Men still have a mind, They can study the greek, and if they do not want to change their mind, they will not.

You can show all the scholars you want, we can show other scholars which would disagree.

So would you like to discuss it. or have your scholars and other scholars which disagree with your scholars fight it out in the chat room? that seems like a silly and wastefull thing to do.

I already showed you that it is NOT the Greek that is incorrect in most cases. It is the theology that is incorrect.
This issue we are debating didn't even have a false teaching against it prior to the Reformation. Within the three Churches, the Orthodox. the Oriental, it has never been as issue even to this day. However, for the RCC they have nuanced it a bit with other man made theories, but it is ONLY within Protestantism that the issue has been discussed over the last 500 years. Man's opinion cannot prove anything as is quite obvious. If you disapprove of one, just start another church that centers on your interpretation. Nothing new today, just becoming more rampant than in the past. Sola scriptura has generally made scripture null and void of any real meaning since it contains thousands of opinions passed on as facts.

 

[cfultz3]

Again, read what it says, God does not force you to come back. You willingly go back. Why? Because he is your sheppard. And you hear his voice and know it. Again, I was a prodigal son once, I heard him and willingly went back. Because I KNEW I was in a place I did not want to be, And I knew unless I went with my master. nothing good could come from it (I was at rock bottom, right where he wanted me)


I assure you that if you hear your masters voice and have no desire to go back. That fellowship yo uthought you had was not real. You can claim it was till your blue in the face. I would not believe it. If it was real. You would know where you left. and where you are now. and would willingly return.

Clutz buddy, With all my heart., I want you to see and realise that even on your best day (the day with less sin) you are still totally unworthy of Gods love and his precious gift. God saved us when we were at our worse. You can not sit and tell me we would ever get that sinful again, After we have been born of God. How can one resist the chastening of the HS. Again. How?? Do you realise how painfull that is (did your father spank you. Maybe it took a few spankings, but did his message not finally get through??)
if we are never as sinful as we were when we got saved, how could we ever be to sinfull we could lose salvation? This makes no sense brother.




Not recieving blessing from God, not feeling his presence, because you have walked away, does not mean you are no longer his son. He still loves you, and he will still keep his promise, I believe this is part of his chastening work on our souls. to get us to come back, it sure worked with me)

Yo umay get to heaven and recieve alot (or all) wood hay and straw. and have no reward to show for it, But as paul tells us, You are still saved, Even though as through fire.

This is to acknowledge your post, that I read it. There were many things I agreed with, just 2 points I disagree with.

My Brother, it will all be solved when we get to Heaven.

 

[thecreationtutor]

is there a running definition of works in this thread, or are we going back and forth thinking we are talking about the same thing

Rhetoric is important

 

[VCO]

It does not suprise me at all. Where do you think his extreme antisemetism came from (not to mention Luther's article on how a jew should be treated) It all was formed in the roman church.

Hid baptism was false. His faith was false and his allegience was false. So why would why he did suprise you?

He was unsaved before he joined the church, He was still unsaved after he joined the church, And his true self shown through, because he did not have the power of God to change, You will not find this in the roman catholic church.

I am happy to report I personally know some born again Catholics, so I will differ with you a bit. Two of them that I know are Priests, and yes I know they are the exception to the rule. They all seem to have one specific thing in common, they hunger to understand the Word, and do study the Bible for themselves. I see a major split coming in the Catholic Church, between the many that worship Mary, and the few that worship Jesus Christ as LORD.

I will tell you the story of one that I had to joy of explaining the gospel to, and watched him grow spiritually, even though he vowed to stay with the Catholic Church. The Holy Spirit in me put it on my heart NOT to tell him he needed to find a Bible Teaching Church, because GOD is Using him right where he is. Besides, one of the two born again Priests that I know is his Priest. That Priest's name is Father Baptista. And after hearing him explain the gospel of Jesus Christ in a sermon at a funeral Service, I had to compliment him on his sermon, I said: "With name like that and a spiritually gifted teaching style like that, you should have been a Baptist Minister." He didn't appreciate the joke about his name, but he sure thanked me for encouraging him to continue to preach like that.

Now back to my friend Bob. After I led him in prayer to become born again, (I could tell he was hungering for the truth that night); I bought him a NASB with lots of cross references and a nice concordance, the first chance I had. He reads it faithfully daily. The LORD gave him a very special ministry after he got grounded in the word. He owns a small body shop, and when he sees a hitch-hiker coming through town, he stops and says, "I can offer you a place to sleep for the night, a hot supper and breakfast, and four hours of work to earn $40 to help you on your trip, but I have one condition. You have to sit down with me after supper and do a one hour Bible study." YES, he teaches from the Bible that I bought him, and is content to remain Catholic.

Isaiah 55:11 (NKJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

 

[VCO]

let him go EG, let him go.
you know he'll take the bait, but why even struggle with trying to reel him in?
not a keeper.
just let it go.

Isaiah 55:11 (NKJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

Last time I checked it is the LORD who is the game warden measuring the fish.

Romans 10:14 (NKJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

Romans 10:17 (NKJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

But I do admit, we are getting close to the time when we need to shake the dust from our feet.

Luke 9:5 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And whoever will not receive you, when you go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet as a testimony against them."

 

[VCO]

which is just the point I made. It does not mean at all that they were NOT true believers. It means they were unfaithful, they did not endure to the end to inherit salvation.
YOu seem to think that even in the secular world, that if a man bequeaths to his children his accummulated wealth in a will as heirs, that they get it at the time of the will. They will inherit it at the end when He dies. Many wills also have conditions. If the conditions are not met prior to the death of the Testator, that person will not inherit the wealth.

It is not a complex biblical teaching. But when one imposes false doctrines of other men, scripture becomes contradictory, and quite meaningless.
All the other texts you quoted have conditions attached to them. They assume, for one thing that you are still in the Spirit. Man has consistanlly rejected chastisement, reproach, correction even from the Church. But man is free, He is allowed to do as he desires. Which is why God can be just in His judgements. If it was up to God, there would be no need for judgement, But then God is not judging what He does, but you. Salvation is NOT based on one emotional decision, but a lifetime of faithfulness.
There is NOTHING in scripture that teaches your view. It never has and never will.
You are welcome to hold to those beliefs but it is NOT as scripture has always meant.

What you described may be true in our world, but was NOT true in the world of the Hebrews and Jews, NOR in the site of GOD, and I can prove it.

Genesis 25:30-33 (ASV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage. For I am faint. Therefore was his name called Edom.
[SUP]31 [/SUP] And Jacob said, Sell me first thy birthright.
[SUP]32 [/SUP] And Esau said, Behold, I am about to die. And what profit shall the birthright do to me?
[SUP]33 [/SUP] And Jacob said, Swear to me first. And he sware unto him. And he sold his birthright unto Jacob.

The birthright designated the heir, and was considered already a done deal possession, before the father was dead

WE HAVE BEEN GIVEN AS A FREE GIFT, THE ETERNAL LIFE (BORN AGAIN) BIRTHRIGHT OF SALVATION.

 

[VCO]

. . . Salvation is NOT based on one emotional decision, but a lifetime of faithfulness.
There is NOTHING in scripture that teaches your view. It never has and never will.
You are welcome to hold to those beliefs but it is NOT as scripture has always meant.

There you go with your ERRONEOUS presuppositions again! Man have they ever pumped your head full of falsehoods. That expression you used "emotional decision", NEVER CAME FROM ME, it came from your False Teachers and/or YOUR OWN HEAD.

Romans 8:14 (ASV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

WE WERE LED BY THE SPIRIT TO RECEIVE JESUS AS LORD.

 

[VCO]

It is not the distance, but the length of time. For me is has been 70 years. Not one, not two, not just 40 years in the beginning. But to the end of my life.

Salvation it not how long you serve him.

Luke 23:43 (ESV)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Matthew 8:10 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Hearing this, Jesus was amazed and said to those following Him, “I assure you: I have not found anyone in Israel with so great a faith!

It is whether or not you Serve and Believe Him because you LOVE HIM.

Why do you not want to serve Him because you LOVE HIM?

How can what you do be LOVE?

It appears to us that the ONLY reason you serve HIM is so that if you RUB HIM The RIGHT WAY, He may give you what you want from HIM.

I got news for you - - - GOD IS NOT A MAGIC GENIE.

 

[VCO]

Again the parable defeats your theology. They had the Holy Spirit. But they thought that they could live without him, but were surprised when it was announced he was coming and needed more oil. Christ came and they were not ready. Never says they never had the Holy Spirit, Oil. Same as with those at the judgment in Matt 25:31-46. They thought that if they had done these works in the past that qualified them now. Same as your theology. Having faith in the beginning, and doing some good works in the past does not save a man. We must continue in faith, never stop, continue to be perfected, endure to the end, inherit the promise.

NO, it NEVER SAID THEY USED TO HAVE THE OIL IN THEIR LAMPS.

I know this probably will go over you head too, but do you even know why they had the lamps?

It is a JEWISH WEDDING CUSTOM. When the Bride could see from a distance, or by word of mouth that The New Dwelling place was nearly finished, she would gather her friends (Bridesmaids) and they would stay over night, until the night the Bridegroom came and called his BRIDE OUT. THE LAMPS WERE NOT LIT UNTIL THAT SHOUT CAME TO CALL THE BRIDE OUT. THEREFORE, there was NEVER ANY OIL IN THEIR LAMPS.

 

[Jabberjaw]

NO, it NEVER SAID THEY USED TO HAVE THE OIL IN THEIR LAMPS.

I know this probably will go over you head too, but do you even know why they had the lamps?

It is a JEWISH WEDDING CUSTOM. When the Bride could see from a distance, or by word of mouth that The New Dwelling place was nearly finished, she would gather her friends (Bridesmaids) and they would stay over night, until the night the Bridegroom came and called his BRIDE OUT. THE LAMPS WERE NOT LIT UNTIL THAT SHOUT CAME TO CALL THE BRIDE OUT. THEREFORE, there was NEVER ANY OIL IN THEIR LAMPS.

Well that's not what the bible teaches, notice when the bridegroom came it says "they trimmed their lamps" this cannot be done with NO OIL, then the foolish said to the wise "Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out" how could they be "going out" if they had no oil to start with?

Matthew 25:1-8 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]"Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, [SUP]4 [/SUP]but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And at midnight a cry was heard: 'Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!' [SUP]7 [/SUP]Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And the foolish said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'

 

[Jabberjaw]

Salvation it not how long you serve him.

Luke 23:43 (ESV)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

This is OT, the Christian dispensation had not even began, get your dispensations right.

Matthew 8:10 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Hearing this, Jesus was amazed and said to those following Him, “I assure you: I have not found anyone in Israel with so great a faith!

It is whether or not you Serve and Believe Him because you LOVE HIM.

Why do you not want to serve Him because you LOVE HIM?

How can what you do be LOVE?

It appears to us that the ONLY reason you serve HIM is so that if you RUB HIM The RIGHT WAY, He may give you what you want from HIM.

I got news for you - - - GOD IS NOT A MAGIC GENIE.

It appears you believe God will do everything for man and man has to do nothing, so any unsaved man is because God faltered becoming culpable.

 

[Jabberjaw]

There you go with your ERRONEOUS presuppositions again! Man have they ever pumped your head full of falsehoods. That expression you used "emotional decision", NEVER CAME FROM ME, it came from your False Teachers and/or YOUR OWN HEAD.

Romans 8:14 (ASV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

WE WERE LED BY THE SPIRIT TO RECEIVE JESUS AS LORD.

Those that are "led by the Spirit" are those that read the Bible of which is the Spirit witnessing Jesus, those that are "led by the Spirit of God" follow the teachings of Jesus, not self imposed religion.

Colossians 2:21-23 (NKJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]"Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle," [SUP]22 [/SUP]which all concern things which perish with the using--according to the commandments and doctrines of men? [SUP]23 [/SUP]These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

 

[Jabberjaw]

What you described may be true in our world, but was NOT true in the world of the Hebrews and Jews, NOR in the site of GOD, and I can prove it.

Genesis 25:30-33 (ASV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage. For I am faint. Therefore was his name called Edom.
[SUP]31 [/SUP] And Jacob said, Sell me first thy birthright.
[SUP]32 [/SUP] And Esau said, Behold, I am about to die. And what profit shall the birthright do to me?
[SUP]33 [/SUP] And Jacob said, Swear to me first. And he sware unto him. And he sold his birthright unto Jacob.

The birthright designated the heir, and was considered already a done deal possession, before the father was dead

WE HAVE BEEN GIVEN AS A FREE GIFT, THE ETERNAL LIFE (BORN AGAIN) BIRTHRIGHT OF SALVATION.

I am not sure where you are going with this or what point your trying to make, but the "done deal" you speak of was not a "done deal" until their father died.