Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?
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Ok cool, so as a former gentile now taking part of Yeremyah 31, how could I not love the Torah, which is the Instructions/Yahweh's Law?
Is it possible to be a part of Yeremyah 31 but not be subject to all the Laws of the Torah?
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kennethcadwell
Guest
Goodnight all......and cults are a matter of opinion. To some we Christians are a cult..go figure. Oh well can not appease everybody....lol
As a gentile, as a believer in Jesus you have the Holy Spirit in you and He has given you a new nature (heart) ,His nature which is a reflection of His moral law. Of course...
Now this hope does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured out into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.
(Rom 5:5)
I appreciate the dialogue here, really.
One last question, and Im goin to go to bed soon. We might disagree on much, but im just curious on how you view this, no further extensive reasoning/debating is intended.
So I agree with all you said, but I ask is the moral law and the Torah the same thing? And if the moral law is different and does not included Sabbath and Feasts days like the Torah does how is this so when it says the Torah will be written on the heart?
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danschance
Guest
Torah is the written law to the jews. God wrote the Law (Torah?) on all men's hearts. God's laws are written in every heart on the planet. When we transgress those particular laws, we feel guilt and shame, same as Adam and Eve did when the ate of the forbidden fruit.
#H8451 - torah - torah: direction, instruction, law Original Word: תּוֹרָה Part of Speech: Noun Feminine Transliteration: torah
On a personal definition I would say it includes all the Laws of Yahweh (sacrifice is fulfilled by the death of Messiah and priesthood is run by Messiah) Torah would include Sabbath and Feast days.
When "the Law of Mosheh" is written, in the Hebrew it is actually the "Torah" #H8451 same as Yeremyah 31.
Example:
Malakyah 4:1-4,"For, behold, the day comes that will burn like an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all who do wickedly, will be stubble--the day that comes will burn them up, says Yahweh of hosts; and it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who reverence My Name, the light of righteousness will arise with healing in its wings; and you will go out, leaping like calves released from the stall. And you will tread down the wicked; for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I will do this, says Yahweh of hosts. Remember the Law ("Torah" #H8451) of Mosheh My servant, which I commanded through him in Horeb for all Israyl, with the statutes and judgments."
Yeremyah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law ("Torah" #H8451) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."
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danalee
Guest
OK, by your definition the moral law is contained in the Torah. I believe the moral law is written on our hearts and I suppose you could include Sabbath if you take it to mean 'rest'...I suppose by extension one could include Feasts as joy, gladness etc. But I take it in the Millenium those will be literal outward observances of the Jews.
It is literal, for Feast and Sabbath for Israylite and non-Israylite:
Zecharyah 14:18, "If the family of Egypt will not come up and present themselves, they also will have no water; they will receive the same plague with which Yahweh of hosts strikes the heathen who will not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles."
Isayah 66:22-23, "For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make will remain before Me, says Yahweh: so will your seed and your name remain. And it will come to pass that from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh will come to worship before Me, says Yahweh."
Also I beleive there is 100% connection between the Torah and the Law of "Mosheh" as shown in prior post #1588.
I mostly agree with the conclusions you come to. I just disagree with the constructs you use to get there.
When people seperate the law into categories they say that the Lord Jesus fulfills some of the law but not all of it. Where did the Lord Jesus ever say that he came to only fulfill a certain part of the law? That is my point for people who try to seperate the law and then by the backdoor say part of the law is fulfilled but you are still under the "important" part.
The Lord Jesus has fulfilled all the law. That is coming to the Knowledge of Christ. He didn't give us rest from just ceremony and sacrifice. He gives us rest from all of our works at the law.
You seem to understand this but then attempt to resurrect the ministry written on stones. Except you have carved out the 4th command from the stones and said except that one.
You must know that abiding in the Lord Jesus and following the Lord Jesus will never cause us to break any of the "moral" law or any other category you and philosophers have constructed, right?
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danschance
Guest
I do not know any Scholars who have studied anything for 1000's of years and why should Creations be so concerned about Jewish law that we need to go to Jewish experts to determine anything? Are Jews more in touch with the bible than Christians? I don't think so.
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It bewilders me that you claim to have the law in your heart, and that you act on that yet I see such a difference in your idea of that and scripture. Also, as you give your view of the law, you do it as a bully to others and bullies do not reflect Christ. How could you have the law in your heart when your idea of Jews and what is told, especially in Romans, is so far apart? In Romans they are the same except for the extra work God gave them to do. Yet you speak of "Jewish law". Scripture tells of law obeyed in a legalistic way without faith coming first, and divides law in that way. Scripture divides the work of law in several ways, such as law not to be used for salvation. Scripture divides law as those that physically are only meant to express faith, never, ever to be done outside of faith. But your division of law goes way beyond scripture's division, yet you say you follow scripture and your heart, and heart and scripture is different. It is bewildering!
You seem to know so much about Christ, it is only that you have your mind set on your own translation of the word "fulfilled" and it is stuck there like a broken record. Nothing can repair the crack in that record. So the wonders of Christ, how Christ operates in our world gets not quite understood. Perhaps if you could let in your mind the words completed, or filled out, or made perfect. Some such words, a bit of the crack would go away.
At least I hope you are not right about that Christ so fulfilled that there is no blessing from works. There are many, many things that works of the law do not do, to add all you say would be awful for us.
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phil112
Guest
................................You must know that abiding in the Lord Jesus and following the Lord Jesus will never cause us to break any of the "moral" law or any other category you and philosophers have constructed, right?
Kind of reminds me of that verse, "he who says I know Him will be forced to keep His moral law..."
Ohh wait, I dont think it goes like that....
1 Yahchanan (John) 2:3-7, "Now by this we do know that we know Him: If we keep His Laws. He who says: I know Him, 1but does not keep His Law, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His Law, in him truly is the love of Yahweh perfected: by this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk exactly as He walked.Brothers, I write no new Laws to you, but the old Laws which you had from the beginning: The old Laws are the Law which you had from the beginning."
