SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS!

[Cassian]

I have read you reply above and you have missed the mark on everything I have posted and you have got to be out of your mind to believe your theology trumps the MEANING OF THE WORDS AND TENSES OF THE VERB THAT GOD INSPIRED MEN TO WRITE....

Faith COMETH by HEARING AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD not your twisted heretical theology of works to keep salvation.....

It bears repeating, but I don't believe in works for salvation or to keep salvation.

But that will probably go over your head as well, because the strawman is needed to uphold your false teachings. Teachings that have been false from the beginning, understood by Greeks no less for 900 years. Then we also know that the notion of "faith only" was introduced by Luther.
Your understanding of justification, the legal definition, was used in the false teaching of Anselm in his theory on the Atonement in the 11th century but generally adopted by all reformers, which has bequiled you as well.

Oh, I know I missed the mark on what you state, but you have yet to show your view is scriptural, given the above, that is impossible.

 

[kennethcadwell]

No it does not, a born again saved person still sins but can be forgiven of them. Just cause you sin does not mean you loose salvation every time you sin. One can turn and serve satan in the way they walk, and turn and reject the Holy Spirit guidance and deny Jesus as Lord and Savior. The Apostles and early church that followed them taught this.

So...what does it take to loose one's salvation and again I ask how many times have you lost it.....if you say never, then that means you have walked 100% consistent and according to the word of God and without any sin right?

 

[Alligator]

... faith of a mustard seed is enough. Faith is either present or absent.

Even a bit of Kool-Aid powder turns water into Kool-Aid.
Adding more doesn't make it any more Kool-Aid than it already was.

Stronger taste? yes.
And that is our desire: to please God, because of what He has done for us.
Good works come with the Spirit,
the Spirit doesn't stick around just because of good works.

It feels like our effort, but it is of spirit, not of flesh.
If you are working for your salvation, you are not in the right attitude, and not working in the right spirit.

The right attitude for works is out of love.

But it has to be a working faith as James clearly points out. If I DON'T do any good works, I have the wrong attitude because I'm disobeying Christ.

 

[LT]

But it has to be a working faith as James clearly points out. If I DON'T do any good works, I have the wrong attitude because I'm disobeying Christ.

If you don't have works, then you aren't in the VINE in the 1st place, no? Works are the fruit of the VINE.
But seriously, is 'works' the problem with our culture,or disbelief?

We are talking semantics, but when it comes down to it, Believers will always be the ones doing the good, and the wolves will be sinning and trying to drag others down.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I like that scripture about faith of a mustard seed. This is just a continuation of my post 1434 where I put an article that talked about how the Apostles and the early church that followed from their teachings did not believe or teach once saved, always saved. They preached one could loose salvation. It wasn't tell about 1500 years later that philosophy was started, by Calvin.

... faith of a mustard seed is enough. Faith is either present or absent.

Even a bit of Kool-Aid powder turns water into Kool-Aid.
Adding more doesn't make it any more Kool-Aid than it already was.

Stronger taste? yes.
And that is our desire: to please God, because of what He has done for us.
Good works come with the Spirit,
the Spirit doesn't stick around just because of good works.

It feels like our effort, but it is of spirit, not of flesh.
If you are working for your salvation, you are not in the right attitude, and not working in the right spirit.

The right attitude for works is out of love.

 

[LT]

I like that scripture about faith of a mustard seed. This is just a continuation of my post 1434 where I put an article that talked about how the Apostles and the early church that followed from their teachings did not believe or teach once saved, always saved. They preached one could loose salvation. It wasn't tell about 1500 years later that philosophy was started, by Calvin.

OSAS is a new phrase, but is an ever-present doctrine throughout Christian history.
John Calvin was not the one who even coined the phrase, nor did he invent the doctrine.
Stop giving a man credit for God's work, lol.

The 'perseverance of the saints' is present in many ancient writings from the Church fathers.


Also, it is present in Scripture, which is far more powerful and convicting than the words of mere men.

 

[Elin]

You're a "faith only" guy right?
How much faith do you have? Is it enough ? How do you know it is enough ?
You see how silly a question like that is?

Yes, it is as silly as your understanding, which is based on man's performance rather than on God's.

It's not about how big is my faith, it's about how big is the God in whom is my faith.

 

[kennethcadwell]

You are wrong that it has been an ever-present doctrine throughout Christian history. Witzki who wrote the article mentioned an article written by John Jefferson Davis who did an intensive study on the perseverance of the saints. In this article Davis mentioned how once saved, always saved or one could not loose salvation was foreign because they never heard of this in the early church. Witzki also made a lot of phone calls to multiple sources to look for the meaning behind this teaching, and every one he called could not come up with any documentation that once saved, always saved or that one could not loose salvation was taught before Calvin or the ones who followed his teachings.

OSAS is a new phrase, but is an ever-present doctrine throughout Christian history.
John Calvin was not the one who even coined the phrase, nor did he invent the doctrine.
Stop giving a man credit for God's work, lol.

The 'perseverance of the saints' is present in many ancient writings from the Church fathers.


Also, it is present in Scripture, which is far more powerful and convicting than the words of mere men.

 

[Elin]

But it has to be a working faith as James clearly points out. If I DON'T do any good works, I have the wrong attitude because I'm disobeying Christ.

Just as water is a tri-component of H2O, so

true faith is a bi-component of "belief + obedience."

The NT clearly teaches that only the first component saves,
but it always exists with the second,
or it is counterfeit faith, which does not save (Mt 7:21-23).

What of the bi-components of true faith do you not understand,
that you keep repeating its components?

 

[Alligator]

Yes, it is as silly as your understanding, which is based on man's performance rather than on God's.

It's not about how big is my faith, it's about how big is the God in whom is my faith.

I suggest that you understand the argument and our position before you pass judgment.

 

[Elin]

Yes, it is as silly as your understanding, which is based on man's performance rather than on God's.

It's not about how big is my faith, it's about how big is the God in whom is my faith.

I suggest that you understand the argument and our position before you pass judgment.

That you don't see the connection between my comments and your argument suggests a lot about your understanding capabilities.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Romans 10:22 " Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity: but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. "

 

[LT]

You are wrong that it has been an ever-present doctrine throughout Christian history. Witzki who wrote the article mentioned an article written by John Jefferson Davis who did an intensive study on the perseverance of the saints. In this article Davis mentioned how once saved, always saved or one could not loose salvation was foreign because they never heard of this in the early church. Witzki also made a lot of phone calls to multiple sources to look for the meaning behind this teaching, and every one he called could not come up with any documentation that once saved, always saved or that one could not loose salvation was taught before Calvin or the ones who followed his teachings.

one biased researcher doesn't change history.

But in all practicality, if a person is drowned in sin, they are unsaved.
so, in practicality, our beliefs align.

 

[Alligator]

That you don't see the connection between my comments and your argument suggests a lot about your understanding capabilities.

You know it seems obvious to me that you have no interest whatsoever in studying the Bible on this forum. It seems your main goal is to ridicule other people and their ideas with cheap shots.

 

[Elin]

You know it seems obvious to me that
you have no interest whatsoever in studying the Bible on this forum.

You are studying the Bible here?

What have you learned on this thread from the Bible?

It seems your main goal is to ridicule other people and their ideas with cheap shots.

What you have expressed in such posts as #708, #1501, #1054 reveal your contra-Biblical ideas
regarding faith and salvation.

I don't usually react warmly to using clear, plain, unequivocal Biblical statements
to set the Scriptures against themselves.

 

[kennethcadwell]

You are right a researcher does not change history, but can show through study how history in the early church did not teach one can not loose salvation.

one biased researcher doesn't change history.

But in all practicality, if a person is drowned in sin, they are unsaved.
so, in practicality, our beliefs align.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are right a researcher does not change history, but can show through study how history in the early church did not teach one can not loose salvation.

well since scripture teaches one can not lose salvation. I think we can be assured scripture trumps any history man would make up

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But it has to be a working faith as James clearly points out. If I DON'T do any good works, I have the wrong attitude because I'm disobeying Christ.

you clearly do not have faith if this be so, and have not been born again, Ths you have not been given the power to do work.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Not when the Apostles or the early church that followed from their teachings did not teach one could not loose salvation for 1500 years, but taught the opposite.

well since scripture teaches one can not lose salvation. I think we can be assured scripture trumps any history man would make up

 

[Alligator]

You are studying the Bible here?

What have you learned on this thread from the Bible?


What you have expressed in such posts as #708, #1501, #1054 reveal your contra-Biblical ideas
regarding faith and salvation.

I don't usually react warmly to using clear, plain, unequivocal Biblical statements
to set the Scriptures against themselves.

My contra-Biblical ideas ?? You mean according to you. This may shock to you but you carry absolutely no weight with me regarding Bible scriptures.