I am a security officer at a place that doesn't really want security, so it is a relaxed job most of the time. They just want to write on the "brochure" that they have security
. It is frustrating if I think about it, so I try not to.-
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I am a security officer at a place that doesn't really want security, so it is a relaxed job most of the time. They just want to write on the "brochure" that they have security
. It is frustrating if I think about it, so I try not to.
Well, to be fair it is the same book and there wasn't really chapters originally.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
I am a security officer at a place that doesn't really want security, so it is a relaxed job most of the time. They just want to write on the "brochure" that they have security
yeah, I am at work also. just doing regular checks today, which includes doing a few checks then running the generator for 40 minutes, so I am slow when I do the checks. then can answer while the test goes on, otherwise I twiddle my thumbs..lol
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
I know.
but we have to look at context still.
rom 9 says there that Israel was not saved eternally just because they were born into the family.. thats one context.
in romans 11. he is speaking specifically about bloodlines (saved and unsaved Israel vs saved and unsaved gentiles.
which is totally different than romans 9.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, [SUP]5 [/SUP]whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.[SUP]6 [/SUP]But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;[SUP]7 [/SUP]nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come, and Sarah shall have a son.”
I have to disagree, Romans 9:3-4 establishes that he is referring to the bloodline, but Romans 9:6-7 zeros in on the fact that not all of Israel will receive the promise because "not all Israel are descended from Israel (Jacob)....the children of the promise (all who accept the word/Jesus) are regarded as descendants.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
well I can not agree. Because Romans 9 is speaking to the fact that God did not fail on his promise. Not all are Israel who is Israel. (the promise (christ) did not come to save just israel. But all people)
Romans 11. Paul says specifically. ALL Israel will be saved.. (which goes back to. God did not fail. They are hardned in part now. But one day soon they will all repent and come to Christ)
why will you not just stick to the verses I posted? Seems you like to jump around alot. Yes, I agree with paul in the verses you posted. He had a love for his people. But he explains why they are hardened in part (so we could be saved) but we better not be so arrogant we think we made it where they failed. For we to will fail, And as we fail. They will be grafted back in.. And one day, THEY ALL WILL BE SAVED.
noticed the part of the verse.
I Will REMOVE the ungodliness from JACOB.
This refers to Isreal as a nation, as a bloodline, as a people. Not to gentiles. whether we are believers or not.
Romans 11:17-24
[SUP]17 [/SUP]But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, [SUP]18 [/SUP]do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. [SUP]19 [/SUP]You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” [SUP]20 [/SUP]Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; [SUP]21 [/SUP]for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
We see here that there is a qualification for being grafted back in. The "all Israel will be saved" is still referring to the "children of the promise" not the "children of the flesh".
Galatians 4:21-31
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? [SUP]22 [/SUP]For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. [SUP]24 [/SUP]This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. [SUP]26 [/SUP]But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For it is written,“Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear;
Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor;
For more numerous are the children of the desolate
Than of the one who has a husband.”
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. [SUP]29 [/SUP]But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. [SUP]30 [/SUP]But what does the Scripture say?
“Cast out the bondwoman and her son,
For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”
[SUP]31 [/SUP]So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.
We see here again that "the present Jerusalem corresponds to "Hagar....for she is in slavery with her children." I really do not see how all of the children of fleshly Israel will be saved (unless of course everyone will be saved, which I surely can't believe).
[SUP]17 [/SUP]But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, [SUP]18 [/SUP]do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. [SUP]19 [/SUP]You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” [SUP]20 [/SUP]Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; [SUP]21 [/SUP]for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
We see here that there is a qualification for being grafted back in. The "all Israel will be saved" is still referring to the "children of the promise" not the "children of the flesh".
Galatians 4:21-31
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? [SUP]22 [/SUP]For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. [SUP]24 [/SUP]This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. [SUP]26 [/SUP]But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For it is written,“Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear;
Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor;
For more numerous are the children of the desolate
Than of the one who has a husband.”
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. [SUP]29 [/SUP]But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. [SUP]30 [/SUP]But what does the Scripture say?
“Cast out the bondwoman and her son,
For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”
[SUP]31 [/SUP]So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.
We see here again that "the present Jerusalem corresponds to "Hagar....for she is in slavery with her children." I really do not see how all of the children of fleshly Israel will be saved (unless of course everyone will be saved, which I surely can't believe).
You are funny, I can't refer to a verse just several verses before the one that you quoted (I use several loosely here). When discussing the bible, it is best to keep all the scriptures in mind. So, if I feel that one thing relates to another then I will quote that scripture and we can "debate" whether or not it applies. Don't you think that would be agreeable.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
We agree here.
then you went off on another rabbit trail.
You did not finish romans 11. but went to galations. which concerns salvation.
Rom 11 is not about salvation. it is about the election and gift of God given to Abraham Issac and Jacob.
romans 11:
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And so all Israel will be saved,[SUP][g][/SUP] as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”[SUP][h][/SUP]
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerningthe election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. [SUP]29 [/SUP]For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Why is God calling the blinded, unsaved people of Israel.
1. Enemies of the gospel
2. Beloved concerning the election, because the gift and calling Of God are irrevocable. And it is based on the fathers, Not themselves?
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
But don't you believe that Jesus died and was resurrected for the sins of the whole world. But the whole world will not be saved. He did "take away their sins" at the cross, but they are still left with the requirement to accept Him.
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
But don't you believe that Jesus died and was resurrected for the sins of the whole world. But the whole world will not be saved. He did "take away their sins" at the cross, but they are still left with the requirement to accept Him.
What do you take from these scriptures?
Joshua 23:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]“Now behold, today I am going the way of all the earth, and you know in all your hearts and in all your souls that not one word of all the good words which the Lord your God spoke concerning you has failed; all have been fulfilled for you, not one of them has failed. [SUP]15 [/SUP]It shall come about that just as all the good words which the Lord your God spoke to you have come upon you, so the Lord will bring upon you all the threats, until He has destroyed you from off this good land which the Lord your God has given you. [SUP]16 [/SUP]When you transgress the covenant of the Lord your God, which He commanded you, and go and serve other gods and bow down to them, then the anger of the Lord will burn against you, and you will perish quickly from off the good land which He has given you.”
Joshua 23:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]“Now behold, today I am going the way of all the earth, and you know in all your hearts and in all your souls that not one word of all the good words which the Lord your God spoke concerning you has failed; all have been fulfilled for you, not one of them has failed. [SUP]15 [/SUP]It shall come about that just as all the good words which the Lord your God spoke to you have come upon you, so the Lord will bring upon you all the threats, until He has destroyed you from off this good land which the Lord your God has given you. [SUP]16 [/SUP]When you transgress the covenant of the Lord your God, which He commanded you, and go and serve other gods and bow down to them, then the anger of the Lord will burn against you, and you will perish quickly from off the good land which He has given you.”
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
I take it, that if Israel does not follow God. he will do as he promised in Lev 26. Which happened in 70 ad.
But what does this have to do with romans 11?
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Yes, but is paying the debt for sin, And turning a people from ungodliness the same?
And according to prophesy they will..That is what paul is saying.
Why do you think I believe God is going to save a group of people who do not believe in Christ, unless they repent?
You do realize that Joshua said that everything that has been promised (that was good), up to that point had already been fulfilled, right?
When he says that God will turn Jacob away from ungodliness, I believe that is why He destroyed the temple.
Isaiah 66:3-4
“But he who kills an ox is like one who slays a man;
He who sacrifices a lamb is like the one who breaks a dog’s neck;
He who offers a grain offering is like one who offers swine’s blood;
He who burns incense is like the one who blesses an idol.
As they have chosen their own ways,
And their soul delights in their abominations,
[SUP]4 [/SUP]So I will choose their punishments
And will bring on them what they dread.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Ez 37:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying, [SUP]16 [/SUP]“As for you, son of man, take a stick for yourself and write on it: ‘For Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions.’ Then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel, his companions.’ [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then join them one to another for yourself into one stick, and they will become one in your hand.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]“And when the children of your people speak to you, saying, ‘Will you not show us what you mean by these?’— [SUP]19 [/SUP]say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.”’ [SUP]20 [/SUP]And the sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes.
[SUP]
21 [/SUP]“Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; [SUP]22 [/SUP]and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. [SUP]23 [/SUP]They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.
Here is God saying he will cause them to turn from their transgressions. And they will be one nation. serving the Lord their God (Jesus)
you do understand this has not occured yet do you not? This is not concerning spiritual Israel. or any gentile. it concerns ONLY the nation of Israel. Who were taken from their land, dispersed throughout all the gentile kingdoms because of her sin. In accords with Lev 26. Which is what happened to its greatest extent in AD70 when rome scattered israel all over her empire, and jew ran to other places..
the restoration is the gift and promise Paul is speaking about in Romans 11. When God TURNS Israel from her wickedness.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying, [SUP]16 [/SUP]“As for you, son of man, take a stick for yourself and write on it: ‘For Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions.’ Then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel, his companions.’ [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then join them one to another for yourself into one stick, and they will become one in your hand.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]“And when the children of your people speak to you, saying, ‘Will you not show us what you mean by these?’— [SUP]19 [/SUP]say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.”’ [SUP]20 [/SUP]And the sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes.
[SUP]
21 [/SUP]“Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; [SUP]22 [/SUP]and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. [SUP]23 [/SUP]They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.
Here is God saying he will cause them to turn from their transgressions. And they will be one nation. serving the Lord their God (Jesus)
you do understand this has not occured yet do you not? This is not concerning spiritual Israel. or any gentile. it concerns ONLY the nation of Israel. Who were taken from their land, dispersed throughout all the gentile kingdoms because of her sin. In accords with Lev 26. Which is what happened to its greatest extent in AD70 when rome scattered israel all over her empire, and jew ran to other places..
the restoration is the gift and promise Paul is speaking about in Romans 11. When God TURNS Israel from her wickedness.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
well did Israel turn from her wickedness when he did this?
Not sure how that has anything to do with turning a people from her sin, and causing them to serve God.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
again lev 26. We keep going back there.
God promised he would destroy their cities and sanctuary if they sinned, But he also promised if they repented, he would restore them.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
You do realise Gods promise to Abraham concerning his people was an eternal promise do you not? Has eternity ended? Has the earth been destroyed so that the land no longer exists?