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Tintin
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I've heard these claims plenty of time online, but they were probably just a VERY vocal minority. Offline, I've heard similar claims but nowhere near as often.
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I've heard these claims plenty of time online, but they were probably just a VERY vocal minority. Offline, I've heard similar claims but nowhere near as often.
I asked this in the Teens forum thread you started, but as others pointed out, this is probably a more suitable thread to ask it in:
Just out of curiosity, what do you think of classical arguments for theism such as Aquinas' formulation of the Unmoved Mover argument? Renditions can be found both in the account of the Five Ways in the Theologica, as well as in another work called Summa Contra Gentiles, but I would assume you're familiar with it as you have been discussing the topic of religion for quite some time.
It may be that the Koran is historically accurate in many respects as well, but none of that means Mohammed was in any way an actual prophet. The Bible too is historically accurate in places, but that doesn't mean the spiritual claims are true. Honestly, I've never seen anything in the Bible that would cause me for a moment to think the claims about God are true.
I have a fictional novel in my library that is set in a small Ontario city where I spent many years growing up. The setting is accurate, even many of the characters in the book are actual people, but most of the events are fictional. Just because the Bible is about real places and about historical figures doesn't mean the events are all true; and in instances were events are true that doesn't mean the interpretation of them is accurate. I believe Paul was converted on the road to Damascus. I believe he had some kind of revelatory experience, but I think the message he received was from his own imagination.
I know about 10 atheists, I've talked with many on-line, and I've read even more personal accounts, but I've never seen an atheist claim such experiences drove them away from God. I do think many Christians sometimes become angry with God (a very close friend of mine being one such example), and I suspect that these kinds of experiences lead Christians to believe similar sorts of experiences contribute to atheism. I wouldn't be terribly surprised to learn that this sometimes happens, but I think it is far from the typical experience of most atheists.
how are you "thankful" for a sunset or a beautiful starry sky? do you say "thank randomness that the birdsong is so pleasing to my ears" ?
i personally never knew true gratitude until i understood who was responsible for every good thing in my life, even for my capacity to be aware of a construct called "good." so i wondered if you know that you really don't understand thankfulness? but it sounds like my suspicion is correct. you have no idea.
boy, i hope one day you come to true knowledge -- you'll discover an inexpressible joy!
"I've never seen anything in the Bible that would cause me for a moment to think the claims about God are true." -Cycel
Since the bible is 2/3 prophecy there are no shortages to pull from, let me give you two that haven't happened yet. When they do, you can change the statement above.
Isaiah 17:1 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap
[h=3]Revelation 13:16-17[/h]King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Since the bible is 2/3 prophecy there are no shortages to pull from, let me give you two that haven't happened yet. When they do, you can change the statement above.
Isaiah 17:1 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap
[h=3]Revelation 13:16-17[/h]King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
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AgeofKnowledge
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There are reasons why comparing God to fictional characters is infantile/sophomoric and fallacious/illogical.
One is that you cannot possibly know for sure. Another is that there are sound, empirical, objective, arguments for God’s existence with plenty of collaborative evidence. And for those of us whom have had the experience to actually interact with God and His kingdom exactly as the Bible asserts: this is irrefutably so for us personally.
But let's speculate. As Craig states, "Suppose all arguments for God failed and there were no further good reasons to believe in God. What follows?—Atheism? It’s very important to realize that the answer to this question is NO. What follows is, at most, soft agnosticism."
Is God Imaginary? | Reasonable Faith
From a purely empirical perspective, atheism may be a delusion about God who's existence can be asserted as intellectually credible. Theism is not irrational. God is not “improbable” in any sense greater than humanity itself is improbable (e.g. anthropically speaking).
Obviously there is no present way for an atheist to disprove God's existence. Yet they assert that their own worldview is the only possible or credible one in the face of a great body of empirical evidence and argumentation refuting them and a large body of human beings asserting experiences which collaborate the great body of empirical evidence. The atheist's chauvinism.
It's for good reason that Plantinga asserts that Dawkins’s work and the naturalism associated with the New Atheism do not even come close to refuting belief in God and establishing that theistic beliefs are mistaken or delusional stating, “the naturalism that Dawkins embraces... in addition to its intrinsic unloveliness and its dispiriting conclusions about human beings and their place in the universe, is in deep self-referential trouble. There is no reason to believe it; and there is excellent reason to reject it.”
So when you proselyte the ultimately meaningless worldview of atheism to Christians who hold an ultimately meaningful worldview using argumentation that the highly complex God of the Bible equates to a fictional sophomoric character, you appear fundamentally intellectually challenged to those of us who are intellectual.... not the other way around.
One is that you cannot possibly know for sure. Another is that there are sound, empirical, objective, arguments for God’s existence with plenty of collaborative evidence. And for those of us whom have had the experience to actually interact with God and His kingdom exactly as the Bible asserts: this is irrefutably so for us personally.
But let's speculate. As Craig states, "Suppose all arguments for God failed and there were no further good reasons to believe in God. What follows?—Atheism? It’s very important to realize that the answer to this question is NO. What follows is, at most, soft agnosticism."
Is God Imaginary? | Reasonable Faith
From a purely empirical perspective, atheism may be a delusion about God who's existence can be asserted as intellectually credible. Theism is not irrational. God is not “improbable” in any sense greater than humanity itself is improbable (e.g. anthropically speaking).
Obviously there is no present way for an atheist to disprove God's existence. Yet they assert that their own worldview is the only possible or credible one in the face of a great body of empirical evidence and argumentation refuting them and a large body of human beings asserting experiences which collaborate the great body of empirical evidence. The atheist's chauvinism.
It's for good reason that Plantinga asserts that Dawkins’s work and the naturalism associated with the New Atheism do not even come close to refuting belief in God and establishing that theistic beliefs are mistaken or delusional stating, “the naturalism that Dawkins embraces... in addition to its intrinsic unloveliness and its dispiriting conclusions about human beings and their place in the universe, is in deep self-referential trouble. There is no reason to believe it; and there is excellent reason to reject it.”
So when you proselyte the ultimately meaningless worldview of atheism to Christians who hold an ultimately meaningful worldview using argumentation that the highly complex God of the Bible equates to a fictional sophomoric character, you appear fundamentally intellectually challenged to those of us who are intellectual.... not the other way around.
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AgeofKnowledge
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Tintin
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2/3rds of the Bible is prophecy? Are you sure about that? I'd say over half of it is history and the other half is prophecy and other genres, told within a historical framework.
I heard it first from I believe it was Chuck Missler, but I can't be sure.
"approximately two-thirds of the Bible is Prophecy" is stated
Prophecy here
this one says there are over 2500 prophecies in the bible, says roughly 2000 have been fulfilled and I see a couple other names I don't recognize on google claiming it's 2/3.. I don't really know how to get to the science behind that as far as this many words, or this many verses, this many chapters. Either way 2500 prophecies is staggering.
Reasons To Believe : Fulfilled Prophecy: Evidence for the Reliability of the Bible
if you have any different information I'd be glad to see it.
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Tintin
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Ah, two-thirds of the Bible includes prophecy, not that two-thirds of the Bible is just prophecy. Interesting. I don't think he's quite right with the numbers but it's something to think about. Thanks.
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AgeofKnowledge
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Nevertheless Tintin, it's perfectly legitimate to argue fulfilled Old Testament prophecies as an evidence for God and atheist criticism of Old Testament prophecy is easily refutable once you have the requisite competency .
Deadtossin just needs to address already fulfilled OT prophecies instead of prophecies yet to be fulfilled... lol. I'll give him a hand if he slips.
. Deadtossin just needs to address already fulfilled OT prophecies instead of prophecies yet to be fulfilled... lol. I'll give him a hand if he slips.
Nevertheless Tintin, it's perfectly legitimate to argue fulfilled Old Testament prophecies as an evidence for God and atheist criticism of Old Testament prophecy is easily refutable once you have the requisite competency
Deadtossin just needs to address already fulfilled OT prophecies instead of prophecies yet to be fulfilled... lol. I'll give him a hand if he slips.
I'm just adding seeds. Nothing like watching a prophecy fulfilled. Might just save his soul.
some people just aren't ready to give the truth their proper attention, but God has a plan.
I doubt we will be waiting to long for either of those prophecies
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AgeofKnowledge
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He's an apostate turned atheist who now spends his time proselytizing atheism at Christians so...
I have a friend that was like him that died from Cholera and was brought back on the emergency room table who repented: A Land Unknown: Hell's Dominion A true Near Death Experience FULL LENGHT - YouTube
He was fortunate as scripturally, apostate Christian is a very metaphysically dangerous "place" to be. A deception and hardening of the heart has set in that if not reversed... well... their end is worse than if they had never even heard the Gospel.
I have a friend that was like him that died from Cholera and was brought back on the emergency room table who repented: A Land Unknown: Hell's Dominion A true Near Death Experience FULL LENGHT - YouTube
He was fortunate as scripturally, apostate Christian is a very metaphysically dangerous "place" to be. A deception and hardening of the heart has set in that if not reversed... well... their end is worse than if they had never even heard the Gospel.
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danalee
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See, I was going to ask what people thought of NDE's. I really want to go see that new movie with the kid who had this amazing story of NDE as a really young child. His father is a pastor and together they wrote a book.
Working hospice, I've seen some amazing things. There's just no way to explain some of this stuff. I've noticed that people tend to selectively 'forget' things that are inexplicable and it's due to fear.
Atheists tend to remark that Christians may put things together in a unique (and self serving) way to formulate a presumption of creation principles. I find instead, that most people tend to eliminate factors because of fear of these unknowns. Denial is really small potatoes when it comes to people. People experience different states of consciousness and are largely unaware that the subconscious is the bottom of the iceberg and is where a majority of thinking is done. This is why there is an art form to communication from God. People have to be told in just this certain way otherwise these walls just shoot straight up and they pretty much dissociate. Dissociative states are more common than people think. Moving from alpha to beta to delta waves is happening especially with the uses of media. People try to forget everything that scares them, essentially. And God is pretty scary when you don't know anything about him.
Once we convert, we are able to start stopping important information from being tossed to the bottom of the subconscious ocean and start integrating the unknown into a pattern that grows less and less scary. This is why reasoning with atheists becomes very difficult. Those walls multiply effortlessly - defenses trump. When dealing with defenses, its best to validate them with short responses. No one does any work on a brick wall. If you can stop them from popping up, it's mainly because you've found a way to validate them without undermining your beliefs. It is seven validations minimum to unlock the mind (as commonly accepted in modern therapies such as DBT). So I'm counting and passing out blue ribbons if anyone has enough patience to actually do this. It might be something like, "wow, you're really good at making me think twice about things. I wonder if you've ever had an experience that made you think twice?"
People who seek out these boards as atheists may literally have dozens of locks to open before you actually start talking to the real conscious, rational mind.
End of rant
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pastac
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the only question I would ever ask an atheist is who's air do you breathe? It came from some source other than science even an intelligent idiot can relate to all truth and not just some truth. Several truths emerge in the world but only one truth supersedes all other truth. So for the sake of asking an atheist as part of the op and not getting side tracked on other stuff that would be my only question.
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danalee
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTU7MfOgDKM Danalee, this is my favorite
Thank you! I went through a phase where I listened to these, but I haven't heard this one yet. I'm so strangely interested in them. I believe them to have merit - not that all of them may be considered holy, but the ones that have the stories of Jesus meeting them in this perfect place and hugging them gives me the chills!
Ah...I'm listening to it now. He got stung by a smattering of box jellyfish!? He lived?
I now see it's an hour long and I'm already hooked. Thanks for sharing. I always, always love to hear these stories - I swear I had a nde (like) experience. I'll tell you about it sometime.
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didymos
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And he probably will, with scripture. You don't have to PROVE what you BELIEVE in.
You yourself are making it quite clear that the burden of proof doesn't have any RESPECT for our 'turf.' I mean, who are you to insist that people produce scientific PROOF for their most sincer convictions? We're aren't on trial here, you decided to put yourself on trial by coming here. I say you're guilty of impertinence and rudeness.
By that time God will put a strong delusion on them. They will gladly receive the mark and explain away the specificity of the prophecy. Much the same way they explain away the existence of and myriad of fulfilled prophecy regarding the nation of Israel. If God has blinded most of His people Israel to the truth of Jesus, those who choose to elevate themselves as god through atheism, and have received as much light and truth as some here have, will need a miracle to see the truth. Luckily for some of them God is in the Miracle business!
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