Faith and Works

[mailmandan]

And Eph 14 says the Christian is to be "holy and without blame". The church is to "not have any spot, or wrinkle" Eph 5:27. Peter said the Christian is to be "without spot and blameless" 2 Pet 3:14. So how can a Christian who occasionally sins ever be spotless, blameless, holy, without wrinkle?

So you don't occasionally sin but are sinless, without fault or defect, flawless 100% of the time?

1 Jn 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

You need to read verses 6 and 7 together. 1 John 1:6 - IF we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But IF we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of lost unbelievers. Walking in the light is descriptive of saved believers. Only saved believers are in the light. Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me. 2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? Lost unbelievers walk in darkness, not in the light. Genuine saved believers walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

For the Christian to be spotless, blameless, without wrinkle requires a continued obedience in walking in the light.

Sinless perfect obedience? Are you sinless and perfect? So the blood of Christ only cleanses us from all sin if we are sinless?

For those Christians that continue to walk, Christ's blood continues to cleanse away ALL sins and that continual cleansing keeps the Christian without spot, blame or wrinkle.

I'm not seeing a distinction being made here by John between Christians who continue to walk in the light and continue to have their sins cleansed and Christians that don't continue to walk in the light and don't continue to have their sins cleansed. The distinction is made between those who say they have fellowship with Him, walk in darkness, lie and do not practice the truth, and those who walk in the light as He is in the light, have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses them from all sin.

Apart from the blood of Christ, none of us would be without spot, blame or wrinkle.

 

[SeaBass]

So you don't occasionally sin but are sinless, without fault or defect, flawless 100% of the time?

I sin but it is walking in the light and the continual cleansing of Christ's blood that keeps me spotless, blameless.

You need to read verses 6 and 7 together. 1 John 1:6 - IF we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But IF we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of lost unbelievers. Walking in the light is descriptive of saved believers. Only saved believers are in the light. Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me. 2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? Lost unbelievers walk in darkness, not in the light. Genuine saved believers walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

"IF" is a conditional word, the Christian has a choice to continually walk in the light or not. For those that choose to obediently walk in the light, Christ's blood continues to cleanse away ALL sin keeping them spotless and blameless.

Sinless perfect obedience? Are you sinless and perfect? So the blood of Christ only cleanses us from all sin if we are sinless?

I never said I was perfectly obedient, sinless. Christ's blood continues to wash away all sin of those Christians that do continue walking in the light. If I were perfectly sinless then I would not need sins cleansed away that do not exist.

I'm not seeing a distinction being made here by John between Christians who continue to walk in the light and continue to have their sins cleansed and Christians that don't continue to walk in the light and don't continue to have their sins cleansed. The distinction is made between those who say they have fellowship with Him, walk in darkness, lie and do not practice the truth, and those who walk in the light as He is in the light, have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses them from all sin.

Apart from the blood of Christ, none of us would be without spot, blame or wrinkle.

John tied walking with Christ's blood cleansing.....cannot have one without the other. John made the cleansing conditional (IF) upon the walking.

Some do not see it for what John says (1) requires obedient works in walking for the Christian to remain saved/remain spotless and blameless and which implies (2) that the Christian can be lost if he quits walking in the light/no longer spotless or blameless.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Are you saying you've never sinned since you turned to Christ? How long ago did you turn to him?

Repentance - resisting temptation - takes effort. Therefore, I wouldn't call repentance a gift. For that matter, faith takes effort, so I wouldn't call faith a gift either. God's saving grace is a gift, though.

that is not repentance. That is what the religious church has turned repentance into. repentnance is a change of heart or mind. it does not mean you will not sin, it means you agree what sin is, what sin has done, which it is doing, and what the only means of salvation is..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well, yes, just being alive is a gift. However, I don't want people to think that they don't have to put forth effort to do the will of the Lord. We have to make the effort to resist temptation. The Lord doesn't do it for us.

true.

but even this, done without the power of God, is self effort, and will be futile (actually impossible)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

When Jesus told us to repent, he meant that we were to stop sinning. We have all sinned but we are supposed to stop.

so jesus told us to do what is impossible?

You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matt 5:48 RSV

the word perfect their means maturity. it means grow up.. a baby christian is not mature, nor is he perfect (only in his position in Christ)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

All the faith only in the world will never save an impenitent person.

an impenitant person will never have any real faith.

thus your logic is flawed.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Faith is a gift from God. However, we must keep the faith. St. Paul said he had kept the faith and run the race. We must do the same. Faith and works are inseparable.

He who begun a good work in you will complete it till the day of Christ.


This is the promise of God. stop relying on yourself. and start to have faith that God will complete what he started. he promised he would

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I always saw faith as a gift and a work.
For faith must be lived, and in living faith, one is doing the work.

God bless
pickles

Faith produces works. If there is no faith, there will be no work..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If we wish to do the will of the Lord, then we will need to resist temptation. It costs a lot of effort, spiritual fortitude, and emotional management to resist temptation, so that we will not fall away from God's desired path for us.



Will of the Lord ---> God's plan for each individual.


And of course we must do the will of the Lord in order to benefit ourselves and others.

Alot of effort? Says who?

Jesus says his yoke is easy, and his burden is light. Why do people make it so difficult when jesus said it is not. It is not our power. it is his

He also said, come to him and he will give you rest. Not make your work harder.

 

[mailmandan]

I sin but it is walking in the light and the continual cleansing of Christ's blood that keeps me spotless, blameless.

You admit that you are not sinless. Very good! I don't claim to be sinless either. Please define "walking in the light."

"IF" is a conditional word, the Christian has a choice to continually walk in the light or not. For those that choose to obediently walk in the light, Christ's blood continues to cleanse away ALL sin keeping them spotless and blameless.

"IF" confirms these two different positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other. Do Christians walk in darkness or do lost unbelievers? In 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. In vs. 10 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. Notice that walks in darkness, hates his brother is connected to children of the devil.

I never said I was perfectly obedient, sinless. If I were perfectly sinless then I would not need sins cleansed away that do not exist.

Amen!

John tied walking with Christ's blood cleansing.....cannot have one without the other. John made the cleansing conditional (IF) upon the walking.

John pointed out two different walks. One in darkness and one in the light. Do Christians walk in the light or in darkness?

Some do not see it for what John says (1) requires obedient works in walking for the Christian to remain saved/remain spotless and blameless and which implies (2) that the Christian can be lost if he quits walking in the light/no longer spotless or blameless.

"Requires obedient works," so you are turning this into salvation by works. So how many obedient works does it take to constitute walking in the light and maintaining your salvation? Please define "quit walking in the light."

 

[SeaBass]

You admit that you are not sinless. Very good! I don't claim to be sinless either. Please define "walking in the light."

Walking in thelight is opposite to walking in drakness. Walk carrries the idea of obeying Christ, do what Christ has said, doing the will of the Father, Lk 6:46; Mt 7:21. Walking in 1 Jn 1:7 includes repenting and confessing sins so they will be forgiven, Lk 13:3,5; 1 Jn 1:9.

The following link has a few comments on the word "walk" -Greek peripateō

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1019-word-walk-in-the-book-of-ephesians-the

"IF" confirms these two different positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other. Do Christians walk in darkness or do lost unbelievers? In 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. In vs. 10 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. Notice that walks in darkness, hates his brother is connected to children of the devil.

"IF" is connected to Christ's blood cleansing away sins. Christ's blood does not cleanse away sins of those that walk in darkness, it's if the Christian walks in light then Christ's blood washes away all sins. Christians can choose to quit walking in the light return to walking in darkness and no loger have their sins wshed away, no longer spotless and blameless.


1 Jn 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

"IF" here means forgiveness of sins is conditional upon one obediently confessing his sins. The forgiveness of sins is not uncondtional apart from confessing just as the washing away of sins is not unconditional apart from walking in the light.
"

John pointed out two different walks. One in darkness and one in the light. Do Christians walk in the light or in darkness?

Yes, and one walk (walking in light) is how the Christian gets his sins continually washed away by the blood of Christ keeping him spotless and blameless. The other walk (walking in darkness) does not accomplish this washing away of sin by the blood of Christ. So the "IF" represents the Christian has a choice in how he walks and the consequence to suffer in how he walks.

1 Jn 1:6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"

No fellowship with Christ "IF" the Christian walks in darkness. So a Christian is either going to choose to walk in the light or walk in darkness, there is no middle road to walk on. The "IF" shows it is conditional, the Christian can choose to walks in the light or darkness. The consequence of not walking in the light is sins are no longer washed away by the blood of Christ and the Christian thenhas spot, blame and becomes lost.

"Requires obedient works," so you are turning this into salvation by works. So how many obedient works does it take to constitute walking in the light and maintaining your salvation? Please define "quit walking in the light."

1 Jn 1:7 makes it too plain and obvious that obedience in walking is required to keep the Christian's sin washed away by the blood of Christ. You have been trying to find a way to "walk" around this required obedience of walking in the light. Repentance and confession, Lk 13:3,5, 1 Jn 1:9 are necessary part of the walking.

HOw much darkness and disobedience can the Christian walk in yet still have all his sins washed awy by the blood of Christ?

You asked "So how many obedient works does it take to constitute walking in the light and maintaining your salvation?"

This question does not solve your problem. If anything it may demonstrate you have not studied Christ's NT.

Jn 14:15 Jesus said "if ye love me keep my commandments".

1) Have you read Christ's NT and know what Jesus' commandments are that are to be kept?

2) Or do you question this verse by saying "what commandments and how many of them do I have to keep"?


So do you KNOW what Christ's commandments are or not?

 

[SeaBass]

an impenitant person will never have any real faith.

That's because a saving faith MUST include the work of repetance. A dead faith only is void of this necessary, required work.

thus your logic is flawed.

No, you unwittingly, unknowingly PROVED my point by your statement above for your statement makes having a "real" faith CONDTIONAL upon one repenting. You have made salvation IMPOSSIBLE without repentance.......and there goes your dead faith only down the drain.

 

[SeaBass]

He who begun a good work in you will complete it till the day of Christ.


This is the promise of God. stop relying on yourself. and start to have faith that God will complete what he started. he promised he would

Phil 1:5,6

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Looking at verse 5 that goes with v6, the Philippians had remained in the gospel from the first day until now. This is why Paul was confident that God would continue to work in those Philippians. God is working in those that remain faithful to and obey and keep His gospel as these Philippians had been. God did not just randomly pick these Philippians out and start working in them for no particular reason apart from them keeping the gospel.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That's because a saving faith MUST include the work of repetance. A dead faith only is void of this necessary, required work.

repentance is a gift not a work.

thus your argument is flawed.

No, you unwittingly, unknowingly PROVED my point by your statement above for your statement makes having a "real" faith CONDTIONAL upon one repenting. You have made salvation IMPOSSIBLE without repentance.......and there goes your dead faith only down the drain.

1. repenance is a gift of God. not a work.
2. Faith comes from repentance, because if their is no repentance, we are still stuck on self. and can never have faith in someone else (namely god)

next!!!

 

[SeaBass]

Faith produces works. If there is no faith, there will be no work..

Faith only is void of works, So that must mean "If there is faith only, there will be no works". Right?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Phil 1:5,6

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Looking at verse 5 that goes with v6, the Philippians had remained in the gospel from the first day until now. This is why Paul was confident that God would continue to work in those Philippians. God is working in those that remain faithful to and obey and keep His gospel as these Philippians had been. God did not just randomly pick these Philippians out and start working in them for no particular reason apart from them keeping the gospel.

nice twist.

he was telling them to be confident of that very thing. so they would not lose faith (by trusting in self)

dude get off yourself. you are not worthy of salvation, you never will be, you will always be worthy of hell and condemnation, no matter what you do. no matter how hard you try, no matter what you think you you will still be utterly worthless and deserving of condemnation.

until you repent and give it all to christ, you will never understand true faith.

 

[SeaBass]

repentance is a gift not a work.

thus your argument is flawed.


1. repenance is a gift of God. not a work.
2. Faith comes from repentance, because if their is no repentance, we are still stuck on self. and can never have faith in someone else (namely god)

next!!!

Mt 3:8 "Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:"

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1015-what-is-the-fruit-of-repentance

The above link shows that repentance is not just feeling sorry but requires one cease from living in sin and begin living a holy, godly life. So repentance is not just some mere ascent of the mind but requires actions/reformation in how one goes about living his life. Just feeling sorry is not enough to save a lost sinner, but he must cease from sinning turn to God (Acts 26:20) Turning to God means obeying God, reforming his life to fit a holy, godly standard.

Acts 26:20 "But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance."

Mat 12:41 Jesus said Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah. Jonah 3:10 says "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

Repentance was a work that Ninevah did that God saw. Just as faith is a work that Christ saw, Mk 2:5.


1) repentance is a gift only in the sense God has alowed men to repent, it is still encumbant upon man to obey the command to repent, Acts 2:38. The imperative implies the ability and responsibility upon man to obey by repenting.

2) faith only would be void of repentance, so faith only cannot save being void of repentance.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Mt 3:8 "Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:"

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1015-what-is-the-fruit-of-repentance

The above link shows that repentance is not just feeling sorry but requires one cease from living in sin and begin living a holy, godly life. So repentance is not just some mere ascent of the mind but requires actions/reformation in how one goes about living his life. Just feeling sorry is not enough to save a lost sinner, but he must cease from sinning turn to God (Acts 26:20) Turning to God means obeying God, reforming his life to fit a holy, godly standard.

Acts 26:20 "But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance."

Mat 12:41 Jesus said Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah. Jonah 3:10 says "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

Repentance was a work that Ninevah did that God saw. Just as faith is a work that Christ saw, Mk 2:5.


1) repentance is a gift only in the sense God has alowed men to repent, it is still encumbant upon man to obey the command to repent, Acts 2:38. The imperative implies the ability and responsibility upon man to obey by repenting.

2) faith only would be void of repentance, so faith only cannot save being void of repentance.

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”

 

[SeaBass]

nice twist.

he was telling them to be confident of that very thing. so they would not lose faith (by trusting in self)

dude get off yourself. you are not worthy of salvation, you never will be, you will always be worthy of hell and condemnation, no matter what you do. no matter how hard you try, no matter what you think you you will still be utterly worthless and deserving of condemnation.

until you repent and give it all to christ, you will never understand true faith.

Those that omit verse 5 are doing the twisting. Verse 5 tells the reader why Paul had confidence in God. Those that omit verse 5 inserts thier own reason as to why Paul had confidence in God.

God continuing to do a good work in them had to do with the Philippians remaining faithful in the gospel and NOTHING to do with the man-made teaching of eternal security that those who omit verse 5 try to force into the text.

 

[SeaBass]

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”

The verse means God gave the Gentiles the opportunity to repent and be saved.

In Acts 2:38, Peter commanded his Jewish listeners to repent. The imperative implies those Jews had both the ability and responsibility to obey that command. When it comes to salvation, there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, Acts 15:9, Jew and Gentile are saved ""in like manner" verse 11. Then the Gentiles in Acts 10 would also be under that imperative to repent to be saved as the Jews.