Faith and Works

[mailmandan]

Walking in the light is opposite to walking in drakness. Walk carrries the idea of obeying Christ, do what Christ has said, doing the will of the Father, Lk 6:46; Mt 7:21. Walking in 1 Jn 1:7 includes repenting and confessing sins so they will be forgiven, Lk 13:3,5; 1 Jn 1:9.

John 6:40 - And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day. Apart from believing in Christ, we are not doing the will of the Father no matter what else we set out to accomplish.

We repent when we change our mind and believe the gospel (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15). We also confess that we are sinners in need of Christ to save us. Believers confess their sins in contrast to those who say they have no sin or have not sinned (1 John 1:8-10).

The following link has a few comments on the word "walk" - Greek peripateō

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1019-word-walk-in-the-book-of-ephesians-the

I think that we can agree that the Christian is to abandon the life he once “walked,” which was according to the influence of Satan in disobedience (2:2) which sums up the sinner’s entire life of rebellion.

He is not to “walk” as the Gentiles do, with a vain (empty, producing no good result) mind (4:17). The present tense form indicates that the child of God does not permit vain thinking to dominate him.

The saint is not to “walk” in an unwise fashion (5:15). The term “unwise” literally suggests “as a fool.”

If we are walking in the light, we are practicing righteousness and not sin (1 John 3:9-10).

"IF" is connected to Christ's blood cleansing away sins. Christ's blood does not cleanse away sins of those that walk in darkness, it's if the Christian walks in light then Christ's blood washes away all sins. Christians can choose to quit walking in the light return to walking in darkness and no loger have their sins wshed away, no longer spotless and blameless.

Did John say the Christian will not walk in the light or choose to quit walking in the light and no longer be cleansed? You are adding your preconceived beliefs to 1 John 1:6-7. Those who walk in darkness are not children of God, as I showed you in 1 John 2:9-10; 1 John 3:10.

1 Jn 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

"IF" here means forgiveness of sins is conditional upon one obediently confessing his sins. The forgiveness of sins is not uncondtional apart from confessing just as the washing away of sins is not unconditional apart from walking in the light."

In 1 John 1:9, do you believe that John is focusing on confessing every single sin that we commit as we commit them as an additional requirement to remain cleansed or does John have in mind here a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness? Notice that verse 8 says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Verse 10 says, "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." In contrast to if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Are you trying to imply that everytime a believer commits a sin they are not fully cleansed until they confess that specific sin? Are they lost again until they confess that specific sin? What happens if they forget one?

Yes, and one walk (walking in light) is how the Christian gets his sins continually washed away by the blood of Christ keeping him spotless and blameless. The other walk (walking in darkness) does not accomplish this washing away of sin by the blood of Christ. So the "IF" represents the Christian has a choice in how he walks and the consequence to suffer in how he walks.

Sounds to me like you are turning this into salvation by works. Christians walk in the light, not in darkness. Those who say they have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, lie and do not practice the truth. That is not descriptive of a Christian, but a child of the devil (1 John 2:9,10; 1 John 3:10).

1 Jn 1:6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"

No fellowship with Christ "IF" the Christian walks in darkness.

John didn't say anything here about a Christian choosing to walk in darkness. There are two camps. Those who walk in darkness (children of the devil) and those who walk in the light (children of God). Walking in the light is not forced or legalistic for the Christian.

So a Christian is either going to choose to walk in the light or walk in darkness, there is no middle road to walk on. The "IF" shows it is conditional, the Christian can choose to walks in the light or darkness. The consequence of not walking in the light is sins are no longer washed away by the blood of Christ and the Christian thenhas spot, blame and becomes lost.

The Christian has chosen to walk in the light. The child of the devil has chosen to walk in darkness. IF confirms these two separate positions.

1 Jn 1:7 makes it too plain and obvious that obedience in walking is required to keep the Christian's sin washed away by the blood of Christ.

1 John 1:7 makes it too plain and obvious that those who walk in the light and have their sins cleansed by the blood of Christ are Christians and those who walk in darkness are not Christians.

You have been trying to find a way to "walk" around this required obedience of walking in the light. Repentance and confession, Lk 13:3,5, 1 Jn 1:9 are necessary part of the walking.

I'm not trying to walk around it at all. Saving faith is not without repentance and a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness.

HOw much darkness and disobedience can the Christian walk in yet still have all his sins washed awy by the blood of Christ?

You admitted that you are not sinless, yet anything short of perfection (any sin at all that we commit) doesn't mean that we are walking in darkness, practicing sin. Either we are walking in the light as believers or in darkness as unbelievers. No middle ground.

You asked "So how many obedient works does it take to constitute walking in the light and maintaining your salvation?"

This is actually a good question because you said that John requires obedient works in walking for the Christian to remain saved. Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you have accomplished enough obedient works to remain saved since we are not sinless and perfect?

This question does not solve your problem. If anything it may demonstrate you have not studied Christ's NT.

This question creates a problem for you because you cannot answer it and leaves you wondering if your obedient works are sufficient enough to maintain your salvation. I have studied Christ's NT extensively and I understand that good works are the fruit of salvation but not the root of it.

Jn 14:15 Jesus said "if ye love me keep my commandments".

The word, "keep" comes from the Greek word "tereo" Strongs #5083 and means to keep, to guard, to watch over, preserve. It doesn't mean sinless perfect obedience. Keep His commandments is descriptive of a believer (Christian). Jesus is not teaching here that works of obedience "help" save us. 1 John 2:3 - Now by this we know that we know Him, IF (demonstrative evidence) we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Sound familiar? Compare 1 John 2:4 with 1 John 1:6. See how this all fits together?

1) Have you read Christ's NT and know what Jesus' commandments are that are to be kept?

I sure have.

2) Or do you question this verse by saying "what commandments and how many of them do I have to keep"?

Either we know Him and we keep His commandments or else we don't know Him and we don't keep His commandments.

So do you KNOW what Christ's commandments are or not?

I can sum them up in these two great commandments - Matthew 22:37 - You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. His commandments do not include salvation by works. We are saved FOR good works, not by good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Faith only is void of works, So that must mean "If there is faith only, there will be no works". Right?

Nope. Because there is no such thing as faith only.

Faith is the power that produces the works.

The issue is what is your faith in?

Yourself?

Your pastor?

Your boss?

Your parents?

God?

what your faith is in is where your work will be produced. And the type of work which will be produced.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Those that omit verse 5 are doing the twisting. Verse 5 tells the reader why Paul had confidence in God. Those that omit verse 5 inserts thier own reason as to why Paul had confidence in God.

Hey look here. You just said Paul had faith in GOD. Not himself.

how about that. Why do you not have faith in God. (ps, you just proved me right)

God continuing to do a good work in them had to do with the Philippians remaining faithful in the gospel and NOTHING to do with the man-made teaching of eternal security that those who omit verse 5 try to force into the text.

lol..

If I have no faith in God continuing a good work in me, and in keeping his promise, I have no hope. if I have no hope. I can have no faith.

Your faith is in yourself and your works. That is why you do not believe in eternal security, You have no faith in God at all. Your total faith system is what you do. And may or may not do. Not what God did, and what God promised.

 

[SeaBass]

John 6:40 - And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day. Apart from believing in Christ, we are not doing the will of the Father no matter what else we set out to accomplish.

We repent when we change our mind and believe the gospel (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15). We also confess that we are sinners in need of Christ to save us. Believers confess their sins in contrast to those who say they have no sin or have not sinned (1 John 1:8-10).



I think that we can agree that the Christian is to abandon the life he once “walked,” which was according to the influence of Satan in disobedience (2:2) which sums up the sinner’s entire life of rebellion.

He is not to “walk” as the Gentiles do, with a vain (empty, producing no good result) mind (4:17). The present tense form indicates that the child of God does not permit vain thinking to dominate him.

The saint is not to “walk” in an unwise fashion (5:15). The term “unwise” literally suggests “as a fool.”

If we are walking in the light, we are practicing righteousness and not sin (1 John 3:9-10).



Did John say the Christian will not walk in the light or choose to quit walking in the light and no longer be cleansed? You are adding your preconceived beliefs to 1 John 1:6-7. Those who walk in darkness are not children of God, as I showed you in 1 John 2:9-10; 1 John 3:10.



In 1 John 1:9, do you believe that John is focusing on confessing every single sin that we commit as we commit them as an additional requirement to remain cleansed or does John have in mind here a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness? Notice that verse 8 says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Verse 10 says, "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." In contrast to if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Are you trying to imply that everytime a believer commits a sin they are not fully cleansed until they confess that specific sin? Are they lost again until they confess that specific sin? What happens if they forget one?

Eph 1:4 among other verses says the Christian is holy, without spot, without blame, without wrinkle which means the Christian cannot have any sin. No one will carry a single sin into heaven with them, so the washing away of ALL sins is what John is talking about, not just some sin.

Sounds to me like you are turning this into salvation by works. Christians walk in the light, not in darkness. Those who say they have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, lie and do not practice the truth. That is not descriptive of a Christian, but a child of the devil (1 John 2:9,10; 1 John 3:10).

Salvation is by obedient works. Doing nothing does not save. Christians sin and a Christian is one without spot or blame so a Christian cannot have any sin to be saved so ALL his sin must be continually cleansed away by Christ's blood and that requires a continuous walking in the light. Christ's blood does not wash away the sins that do nothing.

John didn't say anything here about a Christian choosing to walk in darkness. There are two camps. Those who walk in darkness (children of the devil) and those who walk in the light (children of God). Walking in the light is not forced or legalistic for the Christian.

A person chooses to become a Christian and chooses to walk in the light. By that same volition he can also choose to quit walking in the light. IF he quits walking in the light then he sins are not washed away and he is no longer spotless or blameless.

The Christian has chosen to walk in the light. The child of the devil has chosen to walk in darkness. IF confirms these two separate positions.

People choose to walk in light or darkness. One who chooses to walk in darkness today can obey the gospel and start walking in the light tomorrow. Those walking in the light today can choose to quit and start walking in darkness.

I'm not trying to walk around it at all. Saving faith is not without repentance and a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness.

So if saving faith is not without repentance then that eliminates faith only from salvation and also makes salvation CONDITIONAL upon repentance, ie, makes salvation for the Christian CONDITIONAL upon his continued walking in the light.

You admitted that you are not sinless, yet anything short of perfection (any sin at all that we commit) doesn't mean that we are walking in darkness, practicing sin. Either we are walking in the light as believers or in darkness as unbelievers. No middle ground.

I am not sinless but I cannot be saved in my sin, not be saved while anything less than spotless or blameless. Therefore I must continue to walk in the light to have ALL sin washed away leaving me spotless, blameless.

This is actually a good question because you said that John requires obedient works in walking for the Christian to remain saved. Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you have accomplished enough obedient works to remain saved since we are not sinless and perfect?


This question creates a problem for you because you cannot answer it and leaves you wondering if your obedient works are sufficient enough to maintain your salvation. I have studied Christ's NT extensively and I understand that good works are the fruit of salvation but not the root of it.

1 Jn 1:7 the verb walk is present tense denoting a continuous action, so walking is a life long commitment until one dies..."be thy faithful unto death" So the Christian cannot ever quit walking, so he never reaches a point where he has walked enough and therefore can quit.

If you are familiar with the NT then you should know one cannot be saved without first doing the works of believing repenting confessing and submitting to baptism and then must continue to walk in the light to maintain that spotless and blameless state necessary to be saved.

Yet above, you still try and get one saved by doing nothing, which is not biblically possible ofr one that does nothing is an unbleiver, impenitent, denier of Christ lost in his unremitted sins and remains in that lost state until he obeys.

The word, "keep" comes from the Greek word "tereo" Strongs #5083 and means to keep, to guard, to watch over, preserve. It doesn't mean sinless perfect obedience. Keep His commandments is descriptive of a believer (Christian). Jesus is not teaching here that works of obedience "help" save us. 1 John 2:3 - Now by this we know that we know Him, IF (demonstrative evidence) we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Sound familiar? Compare 1 John 2:4 with 1 John 1:6. See how this all fits together?

One CANNOT love Christ without keeping His commands. A major proble for faith only advocates who claim orks do not save nor maintain salvation. If works do not save nor maintain salvation then one can be saved WITHOUT loving Christ, another biblical impossibility.

I sure have.


Either we know Him and we keep His commandments or else we don't know Him and we don't keep His commandments. [/mailmandan]

So no one can be saved WITHOUT the obedient works in keeping His commandments.

I can sum them up in these two great commandments - Matthew 22:37 - You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. His commandments do not include salvation by works. We are saved FOR good works, not by good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

You posted Mt 22:37...You shall love your God......

Jn 14:15 Christ equates love with keeping His commandments.

So can a Christian not keep Christ commandments such as walking in the light and still be saved? no

 

[SeaBass]

Hey look here. You just said Paul had faith in GOD. Not himself.

how about that. Why do you not have faith in God. (ps, you just proved me right)



lol..

If I have no faith in God continuing a good work in me, and in keeping his promise, I have no hope. if I have no hope. I can have no faith.

Your faith is in yourself and your works. That is why you do not believe in eternal security, You have no faith in God at all. Your total faith system is what you do. And may or may not do. Not what God did, and what God promised.

Yes, Paul had confidence in God that God would continue that good work in those Philippians. That confidence came from the fact that those Philippians had continued in the gospel v5 not because of any man-made teaching of eternal security.

Reading the Galatian epistle, they did not remain in the gospel, Gal 1:6 and you do not see express this same confidence God would continue the good work in them as he did with the Philippians. Rather Paul told the Galatians they had fallen from grace, quit obeying the truth, that his work with them was in vain.

My faith is in God, but I know God has required obedience to His will from me. Lack of obedient works proves lack of faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, Paul had confidence in God that God would continue that good work in those Philippians. That confidence came from the fact that those Philippians had continued in the gospel v5 not because of any man-made teaching of eternal security.

Whatever, Mr twisty Mr Twisty.

Still trusting self.

The fact remains, He said God would continue it to the end. Future tense Which proves eternal security.

My faith is in God, but I know God has required obedience to His will from me. Lack of obedient works proves lack of faith.

No your faith is self. and your ability and continued insistance to do those works.

If you had faith in God. You would be like paul and understand God will continue the good work he STARTED.

By the way, God started the work the moment they first believed. Further proof of your twisting.

 

[SeaBass]

Nope. Because there is no such thing as faith only.

Faith is the power that produces the works.

The issue is what is your faith in?

Yourself?

Your pastor?

Your boss?

Your parents?

God?

what your faith is in is where your work will be produced. And the type of work which will be produced.

You say there is no such thing as faith only, but:

Methodist Discipline, Article 9 says " "Justification of "faith only" is a most wholesome doctrine and very full of comfort".

Martin Luther added the word "only" to ROm 3:28 to pervert it to teach "faith only"

People disagree with you.


Is one saved by:

1) faith with no works (faith only)

2) faith and works

 

[SeaBass]

Whatever, Mr twisty Mr Twisty.

Still trusting self.

The fact remains, He said God would continue it to the end. Future tense Which proves eternal security.

Ironically you call me Mr Twisty but we see it was YOU twisting Phil 1:6.

No your faith is self. and your ability and continued insistance to do those works.

If you had faith in God. You would be like paul and understand God will continue the good work he STARTED.

By the way, God started the work the moment they first believed. Further proof of your twisting.

God did not begin a work in those Philippians randomly or for no reason at all apart from the gospel.

God began that work in them when they obeyed and remained in the gospel. You say yourself that "God started the work the moment they believed" and as long as the remain faithfully in the gospel Paul was confident God would continue that work. Would Paul be confident that God would continue that work in them if that had quit believing becoming unfaithful to the gospel? No, just like with the Galatians who left the gospel.

So it has NOTHING to do with the man-made teaching of eternal security.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ironically you call me Mr Twisty but we see it was YOU twisting Phil 1:6.




God did not begin a work in those Philippians randomly or for no reason at all apart from the gospel.

God began that work in them when they obeyed and remained in the gospel. You say yourself that "God started the work the moment they believed" and as long as the remain faithfully in the gospel Paul was confident God would continue that work. Would Paul be confident that God would continue that work in them if that had quit believing becoming unfaithful to the gospel? No, just like with the Galatians who left the gospel.

So it has NOTHING to do with the man-made teaching of eternal security.

blah Blah Blah

Paul said he begun a good work.

And he said he would finish it.

end of story, According to your gospel. God may not finish it. Huge contradiction to what Paul said.

that is ALL I need to know

 

[mailmandan]

Eph 1:4 among other verses says the Christian is holy, without spot, without blame, without wrinkle which means the Christian cannot have any sin. No one will carry a single sin into heaven with them, so the washing away of ALL sins is what John is talking about, not just some sin.

Yes, ALL sins, not just some sins.

Salvation is by obedient works.

Salvation is by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9).

Doing nothing does not save.

Doing nothing demonstrates a dead faith.

Christians sin and a Christian is one without spot or blame so a Christian cannot have any sin to be saved so ALL his sin must be continually cleansed away by Christ's blood and that requires a continuous walking in the light. Christ's blood does not wash away the sins that do nothing.

Walking in the light is by faith. Walking in darkness demonstrates a lack of faith.

A person chooses to become a Christian and chooses to walk in the light. By that same volition he can also choose to quit walking in the light. IF he quits walking in the light then he sins are not washed away and he is no longer spotless or blameless.

A person walks in the light because they are a Christian. Choose to quit walking in the light? What kind of faith is that?

People choose to walk in light or darkness. One who chooses to walk in darkness today can obey the gospel and start walking in the light tomorrow. Those walking in the light today can choose to quit and start walking in darkness.

We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16). Did John mention anything about a Christian choosing to quit walking in the light and start walking in darkness?

So if saving faith is not without repentance then that eliminates faith only from salvation and also makes salvation CONDITIONAL upon repentance, ie, makes salvation for the Christian CONDITIONAL upon his continued walking in the light.

What James means by "faith only" is an empty profession of faith (James 2:14-24). That's not the same thing as faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation. Those who place their faith in Christ alone for salvation, and not in their works, are made alive in Christ by grace through faith and are created in Christ Jesus unto good works (Ephesians 2:5-10). This kind of faith is not without works. Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit demonstrates no root.

I am not sinless but I cannot be saved in my sin, not be saved while anything less than spotless or blameless. Therefore I must continue to walk in the light to have ALL sin washed away leaving me spotless, blameless.

Acts 13:39 - All that believe are justified from all things.. Genuine faith walks in the light. Dead faith walks in darkness.

1 Jn 1:7 the verb walk is present tense denoting a continuous action, so walking is a life long commitment until one dies..."be thy faithful unto death" So the Christian cannot ever quit walking, so he never reaches a point where he has walked enough and therefore can quit.

Saving faith is a faith that continues and is not some shallow temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and does not continue.

If you are familiar with the NT then you should know one cannot be saved without first doing the works of believing repenting confessing and submitting to baptism and then must continue to walk in the light to maintain that spotless and blameless state necessary to be saved.

Repentance actually precedes saving faith in Christ. It's repent and believe the gospel, not believe the gospel then afterwards repent. The gospel of Christ is the power of God to everyone that believes (Romans 1:16). If you believe the gospel then you already repented in the process of choosing to believe the gospel. In regards to confession, confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead not as two separate steps to salvation but chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10) - that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. ​

Yet above, you still try and get one saved by doing nothing, which is not biblically possible of one that does nothing is an unbleiver, impenitent, denier of Christ lost in his unremitted sins and remains in that lost state until he obeys.

Doing nothing demonstrates a dead faith. Believers obey "does something" because they are saved, not to become saved by works. Acts of obedience/good works which follow faith in Christ are the fruit, not the root of salvation.

One CANNOT love Christ without keeping His commands.

We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). We receive the love of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit (Romans 5:5) who is given to us when we BELIEVE the gospel (Acts 11:17; Ephesians 1:13) and we then become new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). We don't just conjure up genuine agape love in our flesh apart from Christ.

A major proble for faith only advocates who claim orks do not save nor maintain salvation. If works do not save nor maintain salvation then one can be saved WITHOUT loving Christ, another biblical impossibility.

Saved but produces no works is an oxymoron. Saved but does not love Christ is an oxymoron. From beginning (have been saved through faith - Ephesians 2:8) to end (end of your faith--the salvation of your souls - 1 Peter 1:9) salvation is through faith and is not by works. Man is saved through faith and not by works, yet genuine faith is substantiated and confirmed by good works.

So no one can be saved WITHOUT the obedient works in keeping His commandments.

Believers keep His commandments BECAUSE they are saved, not to become saved or remain saved.

You posted Mt 22:37...You shall love your God......

Jn 14:15 Christ equates love with keeping His commandments.

Amen!

So can a Christian not keep Christ commandments such as walking in the light and still be saved? no

That's an oxymoron. Once again, 1 John 2:3 - Now by this we know that we know Him, IF (demonstrative evidence) we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.​ (not a Christian)

 

[VCO]

Cassian, Jabberjaw, & SeaBass

Do you believe in the DEITY of JESUS CHRIST, that GOD (or at least part of GOD) entered that body HE created in the womb of Mary so that HE PERSONALLY could die, paying the penalty for our SIN?

 

[mailmandan]

If you are familiar with the NT then you should know one cannot be saved without first doing the works of believing repenting confessing and submitting to baptism and then must continue to walk in the light to maintain that spotless and blameless state necessary to be saved.

Water baptism follows saving faith in Christ (Acts 10:43-47). Salvation is signified, but not procured by the waters of baptism. Continuing to walk in the light is the result of a faith that is firmly rooted and established in Christ.

 

[resurrection33]

Faith/repentance is a lifelong event as it is a gift...for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. (Php 2:13)

The 'effort' is enabled by Him.

Now I gave you a Scripture (Acts 11:18) showing repentance is a gift, do the kindness in showing me a scripture backing up your claim that it isn't.

The Lord shows us what to do. WE have to make the effort to do it:

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matt 4:17 RSV

Jesus said that WE are to repent. He didn't say he'd do it for us.

 

[resurrection33]

The bible says that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the WORD of GOD.

I don't think there is any effort in listening.

It takes effort to pay attention.

 

[resurrection33]

All the faith only in the world will never save an impenitent person.

I would have to agree.

 

[resurrection33]

So are you claiming to be sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, perfect as God the Father 100% of the time and it's not hard? Have you completely stopped sinning?

I didn't say I was perfect, but I am perfect enough to know that sin brings trouble and repentance brings peace. I also believe Jesus, who said we must be perfect, and that is what I am striving to be.

 

[resurrection33]

Well the OP is giving what he thinks which in this case is not what God has said. 1 John tells us the we cannot completely stop sinning. If we say we have we lie. Oops that is a sin. We ought to resist sin but our body of flesh is sinning by its very nature. The spirit/soul is made perfect the moment we receive Christ but the body awaits redemption and glorification.

Any works we might have of our own will are and can only be dirty rags in Gods eyes. The idea of sinless perfection in this world is completely wrong. Most if not all men will be lifted up with pride when they see themselves as sinless. Pride goeth before the fall.

The works we do after we are born again are wrought by the Holy Spirit ministering through us. They are not of our volition but Gods. We must submit to Gods will to accomplish anything for Him.

Hold fast the things which are good, the things of virtue in Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You are wrong. Jesus said we must be perfect:

You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matt 5:48 RSV

Do you really think it's that hard?

 

[resurrection33]

that is not repentance. That is what the religious church has turned repentance into. repentnance is a change of heart or mind. it does not mean you will not sin, it means you agree what sin is, what sin has done, which it is doing, and what the only means of salvation is..

No, repentance means to stop sinning. Otherwise, repentance really means nothing. Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary (Tenth Addition) backs me on this ("to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life").

Your heart or mind isn't changed if you continue to sin, and it serves no purpose to "agree what sin is, what sin has done, which it is doing, and what the only means of salvation is," if you continue to sin.

 

[resurrection33]

true.

but even this, done without the power of God, is self effort, and will be futile (actually impossible)

The Lord guides us, but we still have to put forth the effort to do as he instructs.

 

[resurrection33]

so jesus told us to do what is impossible?



the word perfect their means maturity. it means grow up.. a baby christian is not mature, nor is he perfect (only in his position in Christ)

You think it's possible to stop sinning? Jesus said this:

You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matt 5:48 RSV