Spiritualizing away the truth.

[pastac]

The Old Covenant was established by the Mosaic Law and served the purpose to define what separated man from God; to demonstrate that God’s requirements could be violated and thus required a punishment and it showed that a written law wasneeded to define what sin is. (Isa 59.1-2; Rom 7.7; Rom 3.26) This in fact is whatlaw means.
The New Covenant revealed the redeeming purposed of Jesus Christ and that He is theonly path to salvation (1Cor 15.3; Matt 26.28). Grace is the fact that man could do nothing to merit His salvation and is “poor in spirit” (Matt 5.3). Man is incapable of doing anything to change His lost condition without God and is in need of being rescued. That is why Jesus died for us as a substitute for our transgressions against the law through Adam
So Moses brought “law” down from the mountain of God by which we are able to knowthat we have violated God’s will and deserve to be penalized. And Jesus in theNew Testament brought “grace” by which our penalty is now capable of being paidby his sacrifice of the cross.
So we are all “under law” in the sense that the law condemns us justly for our sins.We are all also “under grace” in the sense that the opportunity for salvation was procured for all mankind by Jesus Christ (John 3.16).It was foretold on the Old testament and confirmed in the new.
But only those who accept Jesus Christ by faith, and respond in obedience to the Gospel call are explicit beneficiaries of God’s grace. Therefore all others are still under the law as they have not accepted any form of grace.
Consider if you will grace under the “law” age .Noah found Grace in God’s eyes (Gen 6.8). God poured out grace on manyresponded to Him in the Old Testament (Ex. 33.13; Dt. 7.12; Jer. 31.3)
Under the New Covenant, the Law still serves to be a measure of what is sinful. Jesusis the “King of Kings”…. what King does not rule by any form of law? Also, “the law” still exists in the New Testament in new forms: the law of the Spirit (Rom8.2) and the law of love (Rom 13.8,10; Gal 5.14; James 2.8).And the list goeson. I am also reminded that Paul said he was under the law of Christ (1 Cor9.21; Gal 6.2)
So there was grace in the “law” age, and law in the “grace” era. All men today have access to grace; but only those who respond to Christ will receive it”.All are under some form of the law still to this day. Just some thoughts

 

[gotime]

What was that form of doctrine that was delivered to us?

It was the gospel of grace. This is where our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
If our faith is counted for righteousness why would anyone then judge our righteousness by whether we obey the law perfectly or not?

Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, to everyone that believes, Rom 10:4.
Here again we see that the law is not how righteousness is proved or determined.

According to the context you presented 1John 3:6-9, you claim that any Christian who fails to keep the law perfectly has not seen Christ, neither known him.

And note Rom 6:22
ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

What is this fruit unto holiness?
It's Christ the firstfruit.
1Cor 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

And we all know that when we believe on Jesus we have everlasting life, as confirmed in Rom 6:22.

I have already agreed that our righteousness is counted from faith. so I wont address that.

As for 1 John its actually John that said it not me.

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

See John says it. in fact he goes on.

1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Notice that John says that whoever does not do righteousness is not of God.

as for Romans 6:22, I have no idea how you have connected 1 cor 15:20 to it. seems a bit of a leap to me.

I would be more inclined to go with what Paul says about it.

Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Paul says as you once served sin now serve righteousness unto holiness. same thing John said and he made it clear that those who actually do righteousness are righteous. Paul mentions nothing here about Christ being first fruits in connection with the verse you quoted.

 

[gotime]

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus said he did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. when will it be fulfilled according to this verse?

well Jesus said that nothing of the law would be fulfilled till heaven and earth pass. when does this happen?

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Last time i checked this has not yet happened.

 

[haz]

as to Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
notice it says end of the law "for" righteousness. not end of the law period. the text is clearly saying that the law does not give us righteousness. Of which I heartily agree. Righteousness is imputed to us through faith in Jesus Christ. Nothing in my post was meant to suggest that we may become righteous by keeping the law.

Just down from that text Paul says:

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above

notice that righteousness comes by faith. The question I pose is does Faith nullify the law?

Let Paul answer:

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

We both agree that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness.
If you note the same highlighting I had in my earlier posts then you'll see I'm, not saying the law is ended. The law is still there for those who will be judged by it as they rejected righteousness by faith (Rev 20).

Where we differ is that you claim no Christian is righteous unless the obey the law perfectly as proof they are righteous by faith. It seems that this doctrine you follow is a lukewarm mix of works of the law with grace.

We also both agree with Rom 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

But we differ in that you put your own interpretation on it claiming that it means that Christians must obey the law perfectly to establish the law.

I understand Rom 3:31 to mean that as Christians we admit the law is good, just, holy (Rom 7:12) and that we are deserving of death as we all have sinned. Thus we establish the law that it is just, good and holy. But, we Christians had turned to God for mercy, submitted to His righteousness and in believing on Jesus we're saved by grace. We were crucified with Christ and now that physical body is dead (by faith) because of sin, Rom 8:10. This means we now do not determine righteousness by perfect obedience to the law (not even as proof whether one has righteousness by faith, as you preach).

As to Romans 8:33:

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Yet this same Paul said before this in chapter 2:

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

God justifies us indeed but Paul also said that only the doers of the law shall be justified. If that is not enough then read the start of chapter 8.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

It is the spirit who helps us walk. so that we no longer walk according to the flesh. now the flesh broke Gods law/sinned. The law can not help us there it just condemns us. so Christ came to pay for our sins and gave us grace through Faith.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

why did Jesus die to condemn sin in the flesh. to what end?

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

notice that after saying that the spirit enables us to have the law fulfilled in us. He then says that the problem with carnal minds is that they are not subject to the law. The opposite of this then is the spiritual mind which then must be subject to the law of God. not saved by it but subject to it.

Here you add your own words to Rom 8:4 implying that it says that the spirit enables us to have the law fulfilled in us in terms of perfect obedience to the law in this physical life. But this is not what Rom 8:4 says.

Note how Rom 8:3 says He condemned sin in the flesh. Hence we see in Rom 8:10 that the body is dead because of sin. In other words believers were crucified with Christ (Rom 6:6), thus sin was condemned in the flesh. If the physical is already dead (by faith) why then would anyone then seek proof of righteousness by whether the physical can obey the law perfectly? This just does not make sense.

Christians are a new creation. Our life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3. We are complete in Christ , Col 2:10. Righteous, holy, perfected. In Christ there is no sin, 1John 3:5. So why would you then contradict scripture and say that Christians, who have their life hid in Christ in God, still have sin?

The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" had no works of the law whatsoever. This is God's example of saved by grace.

But the doctrine your follow is a lukewarm mix of works of the law with grace, and this cannot be Rom 11:6.

 

[fredjames]

Hi pastac,

Note these parts below of gotimes post.

Here we see gotime preaching works of the law for righteousness.
His claim is that any Christian who does not perfectly obey the law has not seen Christ nor known him.

To use your words, would you likewise say to gotime about his doctrine of works of the law for righteousness " judgmental don't you think"?

Dear Mr Haz, in the New Testament, hat did JESUS teach beginning from the sermon on the mount, Matthew chapter 5 and onwards?

And what did HE say at chapter 7;24 and vs 26?

So we are to just have faith in JESUS (John 8;31-firsthalf), yes i agree, but this is what JESUS says to us, to continue in HIM (vs 31-secondhalf, 32);

"If you 'abide' in My Word (New Covenant), you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

The New Testament is the Law of the HOLY SPIRIT from LORD JESUS CHRIST (Romans 8;2), 'the author and perfector of our faith' that liberates us, if we abide?

The Law that you are quoting from the New testament Scripture is actually talking about the Old Testament Law of the letter that makes us a slave. CHRIST liberates us from the Old Law and excelling us born again in the New Law which is spirit and life and eternal life. Those who eat and drink(abide) in all of them, will not hunger and thirst again

 

[haz]

The Law that you are quoting from the New testament Scripture is actually talking about the Old Testament Law of the letter that makes us a slave. CHRIST liberates us from the Old Law and excelling us born again in the New Law which is spirit and life and eternal life. Those who eat and drink(abide) in all of them, will not hunger and thirst again

hi fredjames,

you'll have to elaborate more on what you mean by "new law". There are many ideas posted on forums and labels can mean different things to different people.

can you give us details from scripture as to exactly what we Christian do under this new law and how it differs from the law of righteousness.

thanks.

 

[Vernon]

I believe something is being missed on this thread. We are called to worship God in spirit and truth. We can outwardly appear to be righteous by not committing sin, but inwardly we can be filled with unrighteousness. Jesus said it is what is in our heart that is the important thing. The Pharisees appeared righteous on the outside but were filled with wickedness on the inside.

When the Holy Spirit enters into us he begins a transformation of our inner being conforming us to Christ, if we our outwardly sinning then we are still living by the flesh and quenching the Spirit of Truth. If we submit our inner being (soul) to God and allow him to purify us then we can cease from sin both inwardly and outwardly.

Only ourself and God knows our inner being and God is not fooled by those who outwardly appear righteous. We must allow the Holy Spirit to purify our soul, and by this submittion to God we are worshipping him in spirit and truth.

Christ be with you always.

 

[p_rehbein]

How exactly does one "spiritualize" away Truth?

John 4:21) Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 .) Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 .) But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 .) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
25 .) The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26 .) Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.


Now, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but as for me and my house...........yeah, we're gonna go with God on this one..........thanks anyway........

 

[fredjames]

Dear Mr Haz, in the New Testament, hat did JESUS teach beginning from the sermon on the mount, Matthew chapter 5 and onwards?

And what did HE say at chapter 7;24 and vs 26?

So we are to just have faith in JESUS (John 8;31-firsthalf), yes i agree, but this is what JESUS says to us, to continue in HIM (vs 31-secondhalf, 32);

"If you 'abide' in My Word (New Covenant), you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

The New Testament is the Law of the HOLY SPIRIT from LORD JESUS CHRIST (Romans 8;2), 'the author and perfector of our faith' that liberates us, if we abide?

The Law that you are quoting from the New testament Scripture is actually talking about the Old Testament Law of the letter that makes us a slave. CHRIST liberates us from the Old Law and excelling us born again in the New Law which is spirit and life and eternal life. Those who eat and drink(abide) in all of them, will not hunger and thirst again

The teachings and instructions of JESUS and the Apostles to all believers and the church, is the Law of the HOLY SPIRIT, and they are spirit and life and are all written in the New Covenant.

Have you and i not learned them from the beginning and do/practice them in order to be called as wise builders who laid their foundation on the Rock (Matthew 7;24). And didn't JESUS speak about a foolish builder (verse 26)?

John 8;31 - JESUS spoke to the Jews who believed in HIM. " 'If' you 'abide/keep/continue in My Word (New Covenant),........................................................"

i cannot ignore these Word of the New Covenant and listen other quotes only and move on.

 

[GrandHoboMaster]

Still, every monk and every hermit consider himself a sinner. Though most of them does not commit mortal sin (and more than half of them are virgins - at least in eastearn tradition).

And for monk (for his inner work at himself) a worst sin is to start think about himself as of righteous men (instead of a sinner).

As closer human come near to God as much he understood his own sinfull nature.

Also we have to mind that any even most sinfull nd fallen person could be turned by heavenly grace to salvation. Saint Mary of Egypt was a prostitute, but she became greatest and truly miraculous hermit (one of the greatest among early christians = glorified by many wonderfull abilities aand miracles during her life and after death).
Saont Kyprian of Antiochia (who tried to seduce virgin Yustin) was been a greatest sorcerer of his generation. Still he brought repentance when dicided to be baptized. And he aslo became a glodified (by mircles) bishop and martyr of church.

It is better to avoid deviding living people to sinners and righteous men. For any one could be fallen and any one could be restored. And every one has his own (quite different) personal pre-hystory and environment in which he grew up (taking either good or evil practice).

The Lord is the Judge, and his Providence is mighty to save sinners and to cure weak.

 

[oldthennew]

hi fredjames,

you'll have to elaborate more on what you mean by "new law". There are many ideas posted on forums and labels can mean different things to different people.

can you give us details from scripture as to exactly what we Christian do under this new law and how it differs from the law of righteousness.

thanks.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


hi Haz,

we hope that this scripture helps you to understand your question.

JEREMIAH 31:31
'Behold, the days are coming, says The Lord, when I will make a new Covenant with the House of Israel
and with the House of Judah -

32...
33. But this is the Covenant that I will make with the House of Israel after those days, says The Lord..
I will put My Law in their minds, and write it in their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Covenant = a contract between two parties, such as (an alliance of (marriage).
Law = Torah
11CORINTHIANS 3:3.
Forasmuch as you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink,
but with The Spirit of The Living God, not on tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

(notice the similarity in the language & thought.)

hope this is of some help.

 

[RedTent]

I do not see why or how you can take a thread about spiritualizing away truth and turn it into something about law!! According to all the principles of God shown in the bible, law is necessary but ONLY after faith. Yet, the people against what they call Mosaic Law bring it front and center into knowing God. It makes no sense to me.

But I do think it would be very profitable to discuss how to see the bible, by spiritualizing or not. I don't think the answer to that comes with a scripture here and there, but with an overall look at all scripture.

God is a God of spirit and truth, and God always speaks to us of spirit. However, God always uses our physical world to explain it. There is a connection. As long as we live in the body, we are to see how the spirit and body is connected.

 

[fredjames]

The teachings and instructions of JESUS and the Apostles to all believers and the church, is the Law of the HOLY SPIRIT, and they are spirit and life and are all written in the New Covenant.

Have you and i not learned them from the beginning and do/practice them in order to be called as wise builders who laid their foundation on the Rock (Matthew 7;24). And didn't JESUS speak about a foolish builder (verse 26)?

John 8;31 - JESUS spoke to the Jews who believed in HIM. " 'If' you 'abide/keep/continue in My Word (New Covenant),........................................................"

i cannot ignore these Word of the New Covenant and listen other quotes only and move on.

Dear brother Haz, with all due respect, in the name of LORD JESUS CHRIST, please do not give up. This is not a reply to challenge you, but also together also learn from you.

Thank you for a kind reply.

 

[haz]

The teachings and instructions of JESUS and the Apostles to all believers and the church, is the Law of the HOLY SPIRIT, and they are spirit and life and are all written in the New Covenant.

Have you and i not learned them from the beginning and do/practice them in order to be called as wise builders who laid their foundation on the Rock (Matthew 7;24). And didn't JESUS speak about a foolish builder (verse 26)?

John 8;31 - JESUS spoke to the Jews who believed in HIM. " 'If' you 'abide/keep/continue in My Word (New Covenant),........................................................"

i cannot ignore these Word of the New Covenant and listen other quotes only and move on.

Thanks for your reply but unfortunately it does not answer my question for details from scripture regarding this "new law" that you speak of. As I said before, such labels can mean different things to different people. Can you elaborate with scripture exactly what you mean.

I have come across somewhat similar doctrine before that preaches that Christians are lost if they do not obey this new law. They argued that believing on Jesus was not enough. But getting details on this "New law" from these persons was very difficult. Eventually they revealed that the law of righteousness was the measure of righteousness and that perfect obedience to the law was required to enter into eternal life.

If you can elaborate, with details from scripture, on what you are trying to share then that would be helpful.

 

[fredjames]

Fair enough Brother Haz, thank you and to our LORD JESUS CHRIST, by the HOLY SPIRIT's help, as our Helper, i understand.

One of the example of our LORD JESUS CHRIST (Matthew 5;21,22) - In the Old Covenant, we are taught;

"You have heard that it was said to those of old, You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgement. 'But I say you' that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgement; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, You fool! will be liable to the hell of fire."

 

[gotime]

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

Good Question, and He has asked the right person, Jesus who came to teach the new covenant.

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Notice that Jesus says to keep the commandments. That is the good thing that Jesus said should be done in order to have eternal life.

What commandments is Jesus talking about?

Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Jesus quotes the 10 commandments. notice he leaves out coveting and instead says love thy neighbour as thyself. what does that mean?

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Paul says that "love thy neighbour as thyself" is a summery of the 10 commandments to do with how we treat each other. This is not a love that does nothing but rather Paul says:

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

because love does not steal, kill etc it fulfills the law. notice that there are real results. If I love people I will not break Gods commandments concerning people. So shall we not bother with the other commandments of the 10?

Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Jesus taught that Love the Lord your God with all your heart is the first and greatest commandment. this deals with the 10 commandments that are about love for God.



By the way these two commandments are not new, they are from the old Testament.

Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

concerning the 10 commandments when Moses spoke concerning them he said this:

Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Deu 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

It seems Jesus simply taught what had already been taught through Moses. This makes sense when you realize that Jesus is the one who Gave Moses the commandments in the first place.

If you read Deuteronomy you will notice that they were to keep the commandments because they were saved from Egypt. notice it was not to be saved but because they were saved.

Have we been saved?

Moses commanded them by Gods will to obey the commandments if they would enter into the promised land.

Is there a promised land for us?

we have seen that Jesus reiterated the same thing to us, If we would have life keep the commandments.

 

[JGIG]

Hi gotime,

It's been a while since we debated. I see your still preaching works of the law for righteousness.

Regarding your denial of a spiritual reading of scripture, I refer you to 1Cor 2:13-14

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


You quote a lot of scriptures that you do not understand, and thus view them from the wrong perspective of one who desires to be under the law.

But what does scripture say?
Rom 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Other scriptures that confirm that Christians are not under the law include Rom 8:2, Gal 3:24,25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9.

Instead it's our faith that is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

So can Christians be charged with sin/Unrighteousness/Transgression of the law they are not under?
Clearly not, as our faith is counted for righteousness and that without the deeds of the law.

Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing(this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

We see this confirmed in scripture that Christians "cannot sin" 1John 3:9, they've "ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1.

For one to be able to be charged with sin/Transgression of the law they would have to be under the law as whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19. Such persons are in unbelief, even though they may be saying "Lord, Lord...", as we simply cannot mix works of the law with grace.
Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Regarding the doctrine of works of the law that you follow, it corrupts peoples minds from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Cor 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

The doctrine you follow nullifies the gospel of grace and the true spiritual meaning of scripture. For your own sake it better to repent of those dead works, and believe on Jesus instead.

Excellent response =o).

I would add the following two Scriptures to round out what happens when we do sin:

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (from 1 Jn. 2)

​

18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. (from 2 Cor. 5)

10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. (from Heb. 10)​

Grace and peace to you,
-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Define sinner ok
World English Dictionary

[TD="class: td1, colspan: 2"] sin [SUP] 1 [/SUP] (sɪn)[/TD]

[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: td2, colspan: 2"]— n [/TD]

[TD="class: td3n1, align: right"]1.[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"] theol [/TD]

[TD="class: td3n1, align: right"][/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]a. transgression of God's known will or any principle or law regarded as embodying this[/TD]

[TD="class: td3n1, align: right"][/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]b. actual sin mortal sin original sin See also venial sin the condition of estrangement from God arising from such transgression[/TD]

[TD="class: td3n1, align: right"]2.[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]any serious offence, as against a religious or moral principle[/TD]

[TD="class: td3n1, align: right"]3.[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]any offence against a principle or standard[/TD]

[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]4.[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"] informal live in sin (of an unmarried couple) to live together[/TD]

[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: td2, colspan: 2"]— vb , sins , sinning , sinned [/TD]

[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]5.[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"] theol to commit a sin[/TD]

[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]6.[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]( usually foll by against ) to commit an offence (against a person, principle, etc
Define law ok
law Variation | Phrase Houghton Mifflin

• n.noun
  • A rule of conduct or procedure established by custom, agreement, or authority.
  • The body of rules and principles governing the affairs of a community and enforced by a political authority; a legal system.
    international law.
  • The condition of social order and justice created by adherence to such a system.
    a breakdown of law and civilized behavior.
  • A set of rules or principles dealing with a specific area of a legal system.
    tax law; criminal law.
  • A piece of enacted legislation.
  • The system of judicial administration giving effect to the laws of a community.
    All citizens are equal before the law.
  • Legal action or proceedings; litigation.
    submit a dispute to law.
  • An impromptu or extralegal system of justice substituted for established judicial procedure.
    frontier law.
  • An agency or agent responsible for enforcing the law. Often used with the .
  • A police officer. Often used with the.
  • The science and study of law; jurisprudence.
  • Knowledge of law.
  • The profession of an attorney.
  • Something, such as an order or a dictum, having absolute or unquestioned authority.
    The commander's word was law.
  • The body of principles or precepts held to express the divine will, especially as revealed in the Bible.
  • The first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures.
  • A code of principles based on morality, conscience, or nature.
  • A rule or custom generally established in a particular domain.
    the unwritten laws of good sportsmanship.
  • A way of life.
    the law of the jungle.
  • A statement describing a relationship observed to be invariable between or among phenomena for all cases in which the specified conditions are met.
    the law of gravity.
  • A generalization based on consistent experience or results.
    the law of supply and demand.
  • A general principle or rule that is assumed or that has been proven to hold between expressions.
    
    So if I do as you did and take this all out of context Got time is correct because a sinner Is one who sins one who breaks the law that's the point I'm making

[/TD]

How 'bout going with the Biblical definition of 'sinner'?

G268 - hamartōlos ἁμαρτωλός

1. devoted to sin, a sinner
​

1.not free from sin
2. pre-eminently sinful, especially wicked

1. all wicked men​

2. specifically of men stained with certain definite vices or crimes
​

1. tax collectors, heathen
​

Now, what does the Word say about those who are in Christ? Do the things given in the Biblical definition of sinner apply to the believer in Christ?

-JGIG

 

[pastac]

How 'bout going with the Biblical definition of 'sinner'?

G268 - hamartōlos ἁμαρτωλός

1. devoted to sin, a sinner
​

1.not free from sin
2. pre-eminently sinful, especially wicked

1. all wicked men​

2. specifically of men stained with certain definite vices or crimes
​

1. tax collectors, heathen
​

Now, what does the Word say about those who are in Christ? Do the things given in the Biblical definition of sinner apply to the believer in Christ?

-JGIG

sin is sin for the believer or unbeliever the definition is a mute point as far as that is concerned. we know what the word says about sin if you are asking for scripture then do so I don't know what else you could mean.Sin is sin!!

 

[haz]

Excellent response =o).

I would add the following two Scriptures to round out what happens when we do sin:

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (from 1 Jn. 2)

​

18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. (from 2 Cor. 5)

10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. (from Heb. 10)​

Grace and peace to you,
-JGIG

Hi JGIG,

Good scripture quotes. When we receive Christ sin can no longer be charged against us, or as your scripture quote above says, "not counting people’s sins against them"

Note also 1Cor 6:15-18
Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot (Hagar who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24)? God forbid.


16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot (Hagar) is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.


18 Flee fornication (with Hagar). Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

Any sin a Christian commits is without/outside the body of Christ that we abide in, as that flawed physical part of us is already dead (by faith, Rom 6:6) because of sin, Rom 8:10.

But anyone that commits spiritual fornication with Hagar (symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24) sins against his own body. In other words they are in unbelief, as they have turned back to the law to determine righteousness by works (Hagar/the harlot). Unbelief in Jesus is the sin the world is convicted of, John 16:9.