Does water baptism save us

[peacefulbeliever]

That's the issue here. Many of you think that those to accept baptism think that all one has to do is be baptized. There is a process before baptism. You have to believe and accept Christ first. You have to confess that you are a sinner. Baptism comes after. When we are baptized we are being buried with Christ and being raised(from the water) as a new creature. A child of God. Our sinful life is gone. We are officially in Christ. You can't become an actual kid again, but you become a spiritual babe. A born again Christian.

This is probably a bad way to look at it this way but baptism is kind of life an initiation process. You have accepted Christ, you admit you are a sinner, but one needs to be baptized to be officially part of the body.

I fully understand that water baptism is symbolic of being buried with Christ and being raised with him. I confess Jesus Christ as Lord and believe in my heart that God raised him from the dead and I am baptized in holy Spirit at that time by Jesus Christ. When I am born again by the Spirit of God, holy spirit is actually created in me; i.e. the new man, the new creation, Christ in me, the hope of glory. Therefore if any man be in Christ he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. [2 Cor. 5:17] Know ye not that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. [Romans 6:3,4]The ONLY way that I can walk in newness of life is by the spirit that God created in me when I was born again. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Water cannot do that.

For John truly baptized in water, but you shall be baptized in holy Spirit. . . .

I am not even saying that water baptism is wrong - I am just saying that for the chruch, the body of Christ there is one baptism and that is by the holy Spirit.

Eph. 4:4-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

How is God in Christ in us? via the gift of holy spirit

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have not seen anyone argue that the water literally washes away the sin. The water does nothing, it is the act of obedience is submitting to God's command to be water baptized that saves.


When Abraham did the physical work in obeying God in offering Isaac God said "for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" Gen 22:12

God would not have said this if Abraham only "thought" about offering Isaac, it took the physical act of obedience.

1. Abraham was saved the moment he had faith. Before he did the work.
2. God does not need water to wash you, He washes you the moment you have faith.

 

[Daley]

In water baptism a spiritual birth takes place, a spiritual circumcision where God cuts away the body of sin..."In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins" A spiritual circumcision made WITHOUT HANDS takes place in water bpatism. Yet Col 2:12 says "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God...So God does the work when one is baptized in cutting away the body of sin. Yet Col 2:12 says nothing about a baptism made without hands. So water baptism it is a physical immersion in water and then and only then a spiritual work of God takes place where God cuts away/remits sins with rising to walk in newness of life, Rom 6:4.

So are you saying that if a person truly repents, and gives his heart to Jesus, God will not forgive him and wipe his slate clean until he is baptized? Many churches don't even baptize people unless they do baptism classes to ensure they know what they are doing and why, because too many people these days rush into baptism without even knowing what it means, or who God is for that matter. If a man takes time to do a few classes prior to baptism, but gives his life to the Lord before the classes, will the salvation of God be postponed till this man is baptized?

 

[SeaBass]

Jn 3:5-----------------water (FLESH)
1Cor12:13------------baptized (PERFORMED BY THE SPIRIT)
Tts 3:5------------washing of regeneration (PERFORMED BY THE SPIRIT)
Eph 5:26-----------washing of water (PERFORMED BY THE WORD) As jesus said in John 6. It is the spirit who gives life, the words he speak (the word) is spirit and life)




non of them refere to water baptism, that is your hugely mistranslated and twisted idea.

First, water means water not flesh. In Jn 3:5; 1 Cor 12:13; Tts 3:5 "water" is equivalent to "baptized" which is equivlaent to "washing of regeneration" "Flesh" is not in any of the 3 verses, you added it (for obvious reasons) throwing you whole chart off.

Secondly, the baptism of 1 Cor 12:13 is water baptism, the one baptism of Eph 4:5, and does NOT say it is performed by the spirit. In 1 Cor 1:14,16 we can see that Paul PERFORMED the baptism upon those Corinthians and Paul water baptized per the great commission.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Nicodemus asked " How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"

Both Christ and Nicodemus understood the impossibility of one being physically born a second time. Jesus is simply saying flesh begets flesh. Even if Nicodemus could be physically born a second time, that would still be flesh begetting flesh. Nicodemus had to participate in a new birth to be saved, one spiritual in nature, where spirit begets spirit. This new birth consists of both water and spirit.

"Both Christ and Nicodemus understood the impossibility of one being physically born a second time" - But being born again does not involve a physical birth - being born again is by the Spirit - That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. This new birth does not consist of both water and spirit - the new birth is totally spirit and I posted earlier that if we put the water and Spirit together, it is a figure of speech meaning "spiritual water" which would be the "living water" Jesus spoke about at the well and in John 7:38,39 which is the holy Spirit.

For John truly baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized in holy Spirit - that is the new birth, that is being born again.

 

[Elizabeth619]

The more I read the more I see people just don't understand why some of us value baptism like we do. No matter what is said it is misconstrued. I don't think this is done intentionally, but I say one thing and it is interpreted into something else. Oy.

 

[SeaBass]

no. you're the only person i know who takes John 4:10 and John 3:5 to mean the same thing (water baptism) or tries to interpret one of the two verses by the other.

although, i haven't really talked deeply with Baptist theologians about these two verses in particular. maybe i know other people that read it that way but i'm not particularly aware of that part of their thinking.

when you asked me yesterday about John 4:10, i pointed at John chapter 7, just like peacefulbeliever did. at the time i wasn't aware that you were focused on John 3:5. i never linked the two verses together apart from discussing the link you espoused.

just like most of the other people who've posted in the last 30 hours in this thread, and like Nicodemus, i believe Christ refers to physical birth talking to Nicodemus, and to the Spirit, the Word and the Life when he spoke to the woman at the well.

is that clear yet, i hope?

All I have said is that no one can go to a remote text like Jn 4:10 and take the figurative meaning of water in that verse and then apply that figurative meaning to water in the immediate context of Jn 3:5 [or any other verse that has "water" in it].


1 Cor 12:13; Eph 5:26; Titus 3:5 are about the new birth. Where is the physical birth found in those verses?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

First, water means water not flesh. In Jn 3:5; 1 Cor 12:13; Tts 3:5 "water" is equivalent to "baptized" which is equivlaent to "washing of regeneration" "Flesh" is not in any of the 3 verses, you added it (for obvious reasons) throwing you whole chart off.

Secondly, the baptism of 1 Cor 12:13 is water baptism, the one baptism of Eph 4:5, and does NOT say it is performed by the spirit. In 1 Cor 1:14,16 we can see that Paul PERFORMED the baptism upon those Corinthians and Paul water baptized per the great commission.

1. The flesh refers to water.
2. 1 cor 12 does not refer to wayer. It says who baptised us, For BY ONE SPIRIT we were baptized INTO ONE BODY.

it is Done by the Holy Spirit. Baptizing us INTO CHRIST.

No water involved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The more I read the more I see people just don't understand why some of us value baptism like we do. No matter what is said it is misconstrued. I don't think this is done intentionally, but I say one thing and it is interpreted into something else. Oy.

Well yuo seem to think we do not value baptism. That would be wrong. We value baptism as much as communion. Assembling ourselves together, Loving our neighbors and brothers. Studying to show ourselves approved and everythign else God tells us to do.

We just do not hold baptism above everything else. We hold it as an evidence of our faith And give credit of our spiritual baptism where it is due to God himself. Not to man in physical water.

 

[Elizabeth619]

Baptism is a pledge of a clear conscious toward the Lord. It is an act you have to be willing to do.

 

[Elizabeth619]

Well yuo seem to think we do not value baptism. That would be wrong. We value baptism as much as communion. Assembling ourselves together, Loving our neighbors and brothers. Studying to show ourselves approved and everythign else God tells us to do.

We just do not hold baptism above everything else. We hold it as an evidence of our faith And give credit of our spiritual baptism where it is due to God himself. Not to man in physical water.

And this is my point proven. You have misinterpreted. We do not hold baptism "above" all else. Without faith baptism is nothing. Without belief baptism is nothing. Without confession it is nothing. WE don't just go play in water and call ourselves a Christian. When will people realize this?

 

[Hoffco]

The problem is ,the question can not be answered with a yes or a no. It is in one sense, no; But in another sense it is ,yes. Some Christians will answer, YES, using the Bible as their source; some answer, NO, against the Bible's statements on baptism. And not all of us have the same definition of "save". The subject of our salvation has two agents: God and Man. What does God do to save us and what must we do to save ourselves. And, salvation has three tenses, past, present, and future. In the sense of what we do to be saved , the answer is ,YES ,water baptism saves me. It is the answering of my good conscience ,confession, that helps me be saved as I obey God's command to be Baptized. And every time I witness to my relationship with my Savior, I am helping to save myself . In the issue of what God requires of me to be saved,YES, water bap. is one part of God's list of requirements for salvation. Love to all Hoffco

 

[Elizabeth619]

OH, and the bible does show where water does wash away sin, and save others.

 

[Elizabeth619]

http://www.studyyourbibleonline.com/bible-study/1-peter/1-peter-320-22-to-saving-acts-baptism-and-the-flood/​

​

1 Peter 3:20-22: Two Saving Acts: Baptism and The Flood

WRITTEN BY: WESLEY - JAN• 18•12
Having just mentioned the disobedient in the days of Noah, Peter now wants to make a connection between what took place at the flood and what takes place today in Christian baptism.
Noah’s Salvation

Peter begins by describing the situation of the flood. The overwhelming majority of the world was wicked. In fact Peter states correctly that only 8 souls were saved. The way they were saved is shocking. We would expect Peter to say they were saved by the Ark. In our children stories and movies the Ark is the instrument that saves Noah and his family. Now it is true the Ark saved them from destruction of the Flood, but Peter states that it wasn’t the Ark that saved Noah, but rather water.
How did the water save Noah? The water saved Noah because it provided separation between Noah and sin, in his case the sinful wicked world around him. Water destroyed that sinful world and therefore saved Noah from its wickedness.
Our Salvation

In verse 21 Peter ties the water of Noah with the water of baptism. Just like Noah’s water saved him, Peter says “baptism now saves you.” It is one of the clearest statements in Scripture with regards to the purpose of Christian baptism.
Peter clarifies his statement with a parenthetical remark. Baptism is not simply ritual washing. Ritual washing was a part of the 1st Century Jewish experience. Migvahs, which were baptistries, were common place throughout Palestine. In fact, many priests had them built in their homes. The purpose of Migvahs were to allow someone to dip before entering into service to God. It cleaned the body from ritual impurity. Peter states that this is not the purpose of Christian baptism.
Christian baptism is not the removal of impurities from the body, but rather the appeal of a good conscience toward God. The phrase “good conscience” was used already in 1 Peter 3:16. In that case a good conscience was maintained when Christians conduct themselves in God honoring ways. The initial achieving of this conscience happens at baptism. Appeal for a good conscience could be equated with “calling on the name of the Lord” in Acts. The idea is that once a person recognizes their sinfulness and need for salvation, they then put their trust in God for that salvation. This is culminated when a person is baptized.
Peter ends by stating how baptism saves. Peter is clear of the fact that baptism procures salvation, but it is not simply the act of being immersed in water that provides this status. Rather Peter states that baptism saves because of the Resurrection of Jesus. Those who teach falsely that baptism is a meritorious work that earns salvation have separated baptism from Jesus work on the cross. And those who teach that baptism is not needed for salvation make the same mistake. Baptism saves because of its connection with the death of Jesus.
Conclusion

Peter proclaims clearly that baptism saves us. It saves us like the waters of Noah’s day saved him. It saves us by separating us from sin. This salvation is made available because of Jesus Death and Resurrection. Those who are baptized are putting their faith in Jesus as they enter the water believing that God is working on them with the result being their salvation.




​

 

[Hoffco]

eternal, your problem is, you lie about others position and your conscience seems not to bother you. does it? Love Hoffco

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And this is my point proven. You have misinterpreted. We do not hold baptism "above" all else. Without faith baptism is nothing.

sorry sis. But that is not how I see it.

If we are saved at water baptism, than it is above all other obedience to Gods commands.

Without belief baptism is nothing.

without belief, all obedience is meaningless.

Without confession it is nothing. WE don't just go play in water and call ourselves a Christian. When will people realize this?

When you realise your adding a work of man to the gospel of Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

eternal, your problem is, you lie about others position and your conscience seems not to bother you. does it? Love Hoffco

I do lie? show me where I lie?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

OH, and the bible does show where water does wash away sin, and save others.

so a sinner, who immerses you in physical water can wash you of your sin? and the God of heaven, WHo can literally immerse you into the death, burial and body of Christ can not wash you of your sin?

 

[Jabberjaw]

The Greek word does mean water, but the Greek meaning for water in Jn 3: 5, is the word.
Jn 15: 3. Eph 5: 26. James 1: 18.
1 Pet 1: 22---23.

You said first "The Greek word does mean water" then proceed to give it another meaning???

The Greek word means water, and in all of the references to it are to baptism, that is part of obeying the Gospel or "the word".

One cannot obey the Gospel "the word" and not obey the command of baptism, but like faith only will not save you, so to, baptism alone will not save you, it requires :

"Hearing" (according to the word) Rom 10:17,
"believing" (according to the word) Heb 11:6,
"Repenting" (according to the word) Acts 3:19,
"Confess Faith in Christ" (according to the word) Rom 10:9-10,
"be baptized" (according to the word) Mat. 28:19, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 10:47-48, Acts 22:16, Rom 6:1-6, Gal 3:27, Col 2:12 and 1 Pet 3:21,
"then live faithful until death" (according to the word) Rev 2:10

 

[eternally-gratefull]

http://www.studyyourbibleonline.com/bible-study/1-peter/1-peter-320-22-to-saving-acts-baptism-and-the-flood/​

​

1 Peter 3:20-22: Two Saving Acts: Baptism and The Flood

WRITTEN BY: WESLEY - JAN• 18•12
Having just mentioned the disobedient in the days of Noah, Peter now wants to make a connection between what took place at the flood and what takes place today in Christian baptism.
Noah’s Salvation

Peter begins by describing the situation of the flood. The overwhelming majority of the world was wicked. In fact Peter states correctly that only 8 souls were saved. The way they were saved is shocking. We would expect Peter to say they were saved by the Ark. In our children stories and movies the Ark is the instrument that saves Noah and his family. Now it is true the Ark saved them from destruction of the Flood, but Peter states that it wasn’t the Ark that saved Noah, but rather water.
How did the water save Noah? The water saved Noah because it provided separation between Noah and sin, in his case the sinful wicked world around him. Water destroyed that sinful world and therefore saved Noah from its wickedness.
Our Salvation

In verse 21 Peter ties the water of Noah with the water of baptism. Just like Noah’s water saved him, Peter says “baptism now saves you.” It is one of the clearest statements in Scripture with regards to the purpose of Christian baptism.
Peter clarifies his statement with a parenthetical remark. Baptism is not simply ritual washing. Ritual washing was a part of the 1st Century Jewish experience. Migvahs, which were baptistries, were common place throughout Palestine. In fact, many priests had them built in their homes. The purpose of Migvahs were to allow someone to dip before entering into service to God. It cleaned the body from ritual impurity. Peter states that this is not the purpose of Christian baptism.
Christian baptism is not the removal of impurities from the body, but rather the appeal of a good conscience toward God. The phrase “good conscience” was used already in 1 Peter 3:16. In that case a good conscience was maintained when Christians conduct themselves in God honoring ways. The initial achieving of this conscience happens at baptism. Appeal for a good conscience could be equated with “calling on the name of the Lord” in Acts. The idea is that once a person recognizes their sinfulness and need for salvation, they then put their trust in God for that salvation. This is culminated when a person is baptized.
Peter ends by stating how baptism saves. Peter is clear of the fact that baptism procures salvation, but it is not simply the act of being immersed in water that provides this status. Rather Peter states that baptism saves because of the Resurrection of Jesus. Those who teach falsely that baptism is a meritorious work that earns salvation have separated baptism from Jesus work on the cross. And those who teach that baptism is not needed for salvation make the same mistake. Baptism saves because of its connection with the death of Jesus.
Conclusion

Peter proclaims clearly that baptism saves us. It saves us like the waters of Noah’s day saved him. It saves us by separating us from sin. This salvation is made available because of Jesus Death and Resurrection. Those who are baptized are putting their faith in Jesus as they enter the water believing that God is working on them with the result being their salvation.




​

1. The water of the flood was the act of Gods wrath on earth.And was the weapon of Gods punishment Noah was saved because he trusted God.
2. The water of the flood symbolizes our salvation. As our faith saves us from the wrath of God to come (the great white throne judgment)
3. Water baptism, Like the water of the flood. In like type also SYMBOLISES us being saved from Gods wrath.

Peter makes it clear. It does not cleans sin (remove filth of the flesh) but is an answer of a good conscious towards God. it is the ressurection of CHrist which saves us. Not some water batism.