Logic vs The Bible

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Pozessed

Senior Member
May 2, 2014
192
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Hello all. I am interested in your opinions about this. I am not trying to criticize anyone particular but I do want to discuss something said to me earlier.
I suggested we were "mere infants in this universe". I was asked how I came up with that. I replied, "it's my own logic".
I was later told that I am not to use my own logic when referencing God and the Bible.

This seems a bit skeptical to me. If we didn't use our own logic to determine the revelations God directs us towards, we would still be stuck with many laws and tribulations our society now would be morally disgusted by.

Thoughts?
 
God has given us logic to understand things, but we also know that our minds are fallen and that logic alone can lead people astray. This is why it is so important that we are led by the Holy Spirit of God and not just our own rational thoughts.

We must also take into consideration the totality of Scripture and not isolated verses. For instance, "The Bible talks about slavery, since the Bible is good, then slavery is good too." This is a gross over simplification, but you can see where such "logic" can lead to great error.
 
Hello all. I am interested in your opinions about this. I am not trying to criticize anyone particular but I do want to discuss something said to me earlier.
I suggested we were "mere infants in this universe". I was asked how I came up with that. I replied, "it's my own logic".
I was later told that I am not to use my own logic when referencing God and the Bible.

This seems a bit skeptical to me. If we didn't use our own logic to determine the revelations God directs us towards, we would still be stuck with many laws and tribulations our society now would be morally disgusted by.

Thoughts?

I believe you are correct with your logic here. Indeed it is true we are mere infants in the Creation. And of course since our Creator is the Father of All even moreso are we infants.

All this is logical by the Bible as well. I would say in terms of the topic of The Bible and Logic, that the Bible is the most logical book indeed. The closer to that logic you are, the better your logic become. So it is also not illogical for someone to tell you to not put too much trust in your own logic over the logic of Jesus, but rather to reconcile your logic to Jesus.
 
God has given us logic to understand things, but we also know that our minds are fallen and that logic alone can lead people astray. This is why it is so important that we are led by the Holy Spirit of God and not just our own rational thoughts.

We must also take into consideration the totality of Scripture and not isolated verses. For instance, "The Bible talks about slavery, since the Bible is good, then slavery is good too." This is a gross over simplification, but you can see where such "logic" can lead to great error.

God is perfect and our logic is his gift, if it were a curse and we were to fail God wouldn't be perfect. He has a plan that can't be misguided because He is the guide. Whether you're a Calvinist or not, you more than likely believe God is perfect and He has a perfect plan. To sway from the idea that you are to use your own judgement and your own morals is to conclude that God is imperfect and has an imperfect plan.
 
1 Corinthians 10:29 I mean not your own conscience, but the other man’s; for why is my freedom judged by another’s conscience?

1 Timothy 1
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Savior, and of Christ Jesus, who is our hope,[SUP]2 [/SUP]To Timothy, my true child in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines, [SUP]4 [/SUP]nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. [SUP]6 [/SUP]For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, [SUP]7 [/SUP]wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, [SUP]9 [/SUP]realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers [SUP]10 [/SUP]and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, [SUP]11 [/SUP]according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service, [SUP]13 [/SUP]even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; [SUP]14 [/SUP]and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. [SUP]15 [/SUP]It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight,[SUP]19 [/SUP]keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.

Your faith is according to your conscience. But you must be sure that you are building your faith on the word of God. I say this, not directly toward you, but as a general statement to all. Our conscience is everything, but it means little if it is founded outside of God's word. One time I was taught in a bible class, when I was young, that we should not live by our conscience - But I believe this lesson was not scriptural. The bible says quite the opposite.

Romans 14:13-23
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this—not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way. [SUP]14[/SUP]I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; [SUP]17 [/SUP]for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. [SUP]19 [/SUP]So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense. [SUP]21 [/SUP]It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles. [SUP]22 [/SUP]The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

1 Corinthians 10:23
All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify.
 
God is perfect and our logic is his gift, if it were a curse and we were to fail God wouldn't be perfect. He has a plan that can't be misguided because He is the guide. Whether you're a Calvinist or not, you more than likely believe God is perfect and He has a perfect plan. To sway from the idea that you are to use your own judgement and your own morals is to conclude that God is imperfect and has an imperfect plan.

to be perfectly honest, I am not sure what you are getting at.

I am simply stating that human logic is fallible and needs the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Hitler thought he was being very "logical" by eradicating the Jews, elderly, and handicapped because his goal was to create a unified Arian race. "Logic" can arrive from faulty foundations which can lead to great evil.

logic as it is defined by Merriam is "a particular way of thinking about something." As it is defined here, You can see how it can very easily be used for evil.
 
I see according to your profile though that you are not a Christian. Knowing this helps make conversation easier as now I know where you are coming from. I am guessing you do not believe the Word of God to be true?
 
Logic will not lead you astray, logic brings you to the findable truth I. However, allowing illogic to enter your mind will lead you down the path to heresy and apostasy.
 
to be perfectly honest, I am not sure what you are getting at.

I am simply stating that human logic is fallible and needs the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Hitler thought he was being very "logical" by eradicating the Jews, elderly, and handicapped because his goal was to create a unified Arian race. "Logic" can arrive from faulty foundations which can lead to great evil.

logic as it is defined by Merriam is "a particular way of thinking about something." As it is defined here, You can see how it can very easily be used for evil.

Do you speculate that more evil has come from logic than good? Regardless of peoples religious backgrounds and cultures. Overall, do you think human logic has hurt or helped humanity in the way we have had to exist on this planet?
 
I see according to your profile though that you are not a Christian. Knowing this helps make conversation easier as now I know where you are coming from. I am guessing you do not believe the Word of God to be true?
Actually I do. I believe Gods plan to be perfect and our memory to be as perfect as he allows it. Therefore we only remember what he wishes for us to remember, regardless of where you obtained the information. In my belief, all information comes from God.
I honestly believe much of the Bibles teachings, I am not as well scripted as others, but I do have practices in its knowledge.
 
to be perfectly honest, I am not sure what you are getting at.

I am simply stating that human logic is fallible and needs the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Hitler thought he was being very "logical" by eradicating the Jews, elderly, and handicapped because his goal was to create a unified Arian race. "Logic" can arrive from faulty foundations which can lead to great evil.

logic as it is defined by Merriam is "a particular way of thinking about something." As it is defined here, You can see how it can very easily be used for evil.
Merriam's definition is wrong. Logic is the study of provable fact through deduction. Look at Socrates, through logic, He discovered that there is only one all powerful God who is the source of Good.
 
Merriam's definition is wrong. Logic is the study of provable fact through deduction. Look at Socrates, through logic, He discovered that there is only one all powerful God who is the source of Good.

Well logic is a very loose term and with so many definitions it is easy to see how misunderstanding can arise.

as you have defined it, it almost sounds more like knowledge or the study of knowledge. Not everything in the Bible can be "proved" scientifically, but I believe what it says based on faith and the revelation of Jesus Christ to my heart.

I agree that the Bible is logical, but I think that faith trumps "reasoning, knowledge, and logic." Not everything in the Bible needs to make perfect sense in order for one to believe. Really, one only needs to understand and believe in the Cross and what Christ has done for us to be saved.
 
Actually I do. I believe Gods plan to be perfect and our memory to be as perfect as he allows it. Therefore we only remember what he wishes for us to remember, regardless of where you obtained the information. In my belief, all information comes from God.
I honestly believe much of the Bibles teachings, I am not as well scripted as others, but I do have practices in its knowledge.

I would venture to ask another question for clarity. Do you believe Christ to be the Son of God, who died and rose again in order to save mankind from their sins and that through Him alone we are reconciled unto God?
 
Do you speculate that more evil has come from logic than good? Regardless of peoples religious backgrounds and cultures. Overall, do you think human logic has hurt or helped humanity in the way we have had to exist on this planet?

That is quite a broad question! I suppose it depends upon your definition of logic, as you can see from Thomist and I that different people have different definitions that pop into the mind when one hears the term "logic."

For instance athiests pride themselves on being "logical" but they come to some VERY faulty conclusions.
 
Well logic is a very loose term and with so many definitions it is easy to see how misunderstanding can arise.

as you have defined it, it almost sounds more like knowledge or the study of knowledge. Not everything in the Bible can be "proved" scientifically, but I believe what it says based on faith and the revelation of Jesus Christ to my heart.

I agree that the Bible is logical, but I think that faith trumps "reasoning, knowledge, and logic." Not everything in the Bible needs to make perfect sense in order for one to believe. Really, one only needs to understand and believe in the Cross and what Christ has done for us to be saved.

So according to your stance and these verses:


  1. Jesus made reference to the Law and Prophets as a unit, "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill," (Matt. 5:17).
  2. Jesus explained the Scriptures, "Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures," (NASB, Luke 24:27).
  3. Jesus referred to the entire Canon by mentioning all the prophets from Abel (from Genesis, the first book and first martyr) to Zechariah (Chronicles, the last book, and the last martyr) (Matt. 23:35)

We should be adhering to OT laws and thus doing things like banning women from speaking in church, and killing our children if they wish us dead? According to a "Biblical faith" trumps all "logical reasoning" these are the laws we should be practicing because that is what Jesus was promoting, was the Old Testament.
 
Well logic is a very loose term and with so many definitions it is easy to see how misunderstanding can arise.

as you have defined it, it almost sounds more like knowledge or the study of knowledge. Not everything in the Bible can be "proved" scientifically, but I believe what it says based on faith and the revelation of Jesus Christ to my heart.

I agree that the Bible is logical, but I think that faith trumps "reasoning, knowledge, and logic." Not everything in the Bible needs to make perfect sense in order for one to believe. Really, one only needs to understand and believe in the Cross and what Christ has done for us to be saved.
Correct, that is why I said logic cannot lead one astray, since it leads to findable truth. It cannot grant revealed truth, such as the Trinity, the Incarnation of Christ, or the exact manner in which God has revealed His master plan. That can only be found within sacred Scripture.
 
I would venture to ask another question for clarity. Do you believe Christ to be the Son of God, who died and rose again in order to save mankind from their sins and that through Him alone we are reconciled unto God?

I believe God is capable of saving me without the need of a savior. He knows me better than I know myself, and He made me who I am for a purpose. I have never been considered immoral by human standards, and I respect all that He has made and done for Me and this universe. Why do I need to be saved by anyone but Him?
 
I believe God is capable of saving me without the need of a savior. He knows me better than I know myself, and He made me who I am for a purpose. I have never been considered immoral by human standards, and I respect all that He has made and done for Me and this universe. Why do I need to be saved by anyone but Him?
But your last question from an orthodox Christian perspective is one that we agree with, since we see Jesus as God Himself. So, it isn't someone else saving you, it's God.
 
So according to your stance and these verses:


  1. Jesus made reference to the Law and Prophets as a unit, "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill," (Matt. 5:17).
  2. Jesus explained the Scriptures, "Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures," (NASB, Luke 24:27).
  3. Jesus referred to the entire Canon by mentioning all the prophets from Abel (from Genesis, the first book and first martyr) to Zechariah (Chronicles, the last book, and the last martyr) (Matt. 23:35)

We should be adhering to OT laws and thus doing things like banning women from speaking in church, and killing our children if they wish us dead? According to a "Biblical faith" trumps all "logical reasoning" these are the laws we should be practicing because that is what Jesus was promoting, was the Old Testament.

I am afraid you do not understand the distinction between the Old and New Testaments and between the gentile and Jew. No where in the New Testament is murder condoned, in fact, even hating your brother secretly in your heart is like murder and is condemned.

Jesus fulfilled the Law by His perfect sacrifice and because of this sacrifice we do not follow all the same commandments as were given to the Jews.

see Jesus words here:

Matthew 22:36-40
New International Version (NIV)
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”


37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
 
That is quite a broad question! I suppose it depends upon your definition of logic, as you can see from Thomist and I that different people have different definitions that pop into the mind when one hears the term "logic."

For instance athiests pride themselves on being "logical" but they come to some VERY faulty conclusions.

Okay then, please try your best to give an example on how logic has been overall more harmful than good. Use any definition of logic you like as long as it pertains to the application of intelligence I will be satisfied.