Does water baptism save us

[Jabberjaw]

The Bible and the Greek Bible texts prove that water baptism doesn't save.

I disagree. you've not proven that.

The Bible translators have mislead us with some of the scriptures, And the scriptures about water baptism are just some of the wrongly translated scriptures.

I find it hard to believe that hundreds of Greek to English translators have it wrong, but you got it right.

But leaving the Greek out, When you read the Bible as a whole, It alone proves that water baptism doesn't save.
For instance, The OT saints never got baptised in water,

Baptism was brought to command by God through John the Baptizer who paved the way for the new covenant. one cannot be transgress a law that is not yet law.

The thief on the cross never got baptised in water,

Prove that with scripture or retract.

Paul and the Gentiles in Acts 10, Were saved, baptised in the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues, But they weren't baptised in water.

The disciples were baptised in water, But they weren't saved.

So if you take the Bible as a whole, You will see that water baptism doesn't save.

Paul like all the disciples ,was baptized with water washing away his sins :

Acts 22:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

You cannot show with scripture in the English or the Greek, that anyone ever had sins remitted by a baptism of the Holy Spirit, you cannot show a baptism of the Holy Spirit done to anyone other than the Apostles, and the house of Cornelius.

There is only one saving baptism in the English and the Greek (Eph 4:5) and in all 8 conversions they were water baptized.

 

[saved1975]

You overstate your Greek interpretation, the Greek says what the English says, it is my experience the majority of time that one needs to reference the Greek is because someone is twisting it in attempt to make their twisting the English as you are, credible.

I find that those who come against the Greek, it's because they know that the Greek proves them wrong.

 

[saved1975]

I disagree. you've not proven that.



I find it hard to believe that hundreds of Greek to English translators have it wrong, but you got it right.



Baptism was brought to command by God through John the Baptizer who paved the way for the new covenant. one cannot be transgress a law that is not yet law.



Prove that with scripture or retract.



Paul like all the disciples ,was baptized with water washing away his sins :

Acts 22:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

You cannot show with scripture in the English or the Greek, that anyone ever had sins remitted by a baptism of the Holy Spirit, you cannot show a baptism of the Holy Spirit done to anyone other than the Apostles, and the house of Cornelius.

There is only one saving baptism in the English and the Greek (Eph 4:5) and in all 8 conversions they were water baptized.

You can disagree all you want, but it doesn't change the truth.
Paul was ALREADY saved when Acts 22: 16 says be baptized and wash away thy sins.
He was saved at least three days before.
Baptism in Acts 22: 16, is just symbolic of an ALREADY SAVED PERSON.

 

[Jabberjaw]

You can disagree all you want, but it doesn't change the truth.
Paul was ALREADY saved when Acts 22: 16 says be baptized and wash away thy sins.
He was saved at least three days before.
Baptism in Acts 22: 16, is just symbolic of an ALREADY SAVED PERSON.

Your opinion, and that's all it is.

 

[saved1975]

I disagree. you've not proven that.



I find it hard to believe that hundreds of Greek to English translators have it wrong, but you got it right.



Baptism was brought to command by God through John the Baptizer who paved the way for the new covenant. one cannot be transgress a law that is not yet law.



Prove that with scripture or retract.



Paul like all the disciples ,was baptized with water washing away his sins :

Acts 22:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

You cannot show with scripture in the English or the Greek, that anyone ever had sins remitted by a baptism of the Holy Spirit, you cannot show a baptism of the Holy Spirit done to anyone other than the Apostles, and the house of Cornelius.

There is only one saving baptism in the English and the Greek (Eph 4:5) and in all 8 conversions they were water baptized.

The "one baptism" in Eph 4: 5, is the rebirth,
1 Cor 12: 13.
If you keep Eph 4: 4-6, It can only be taking about the spiritual rebirth.


Paul mentions baptisms (Plural) ,
And that's because there are three Christian Baptisms.
And the rebirth is the "One baptism",

 

[saved1975]

Your opinion, and that's all it is.

No, No, it's a Biblical fact.

 

[SeaBass]

Mark 16:16 says whoever believes and is baptized with be saved. So which verse is the right one?

ACts 16 also shows where they believed and were baptized the same day. Not months or years apart.

Acts 2:41 "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

Those that were baptized were the ones that received, accepted the gospel preached by Peter.

Those that rejected baptism were the ones that did not receive, refused the gospel preached by Peter.


So the implication is one has not received, accepted the gospel until he has been baptized.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I disagree. you've not proven that.

I find it hard to believe that hundreds of Greek to English translators have it wrong, but you got it right.

Baptism was brought to command by God through John the Baptizer who paved the way for the new covenant. one cannot be transgress a law that is not yet law.

Prove that with scripture or retract.

Paul like all the disciples ,was baptized with water washing away his sins :

Acts 22:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

You cannot show with scripture in the English or the Greek, that anyone ever had sins remitted by a baptism of the Holy Spirit, you cannot show a baptism of the Holy Spirit done to anyone other than the Apostles, and the house of Cornelius.

There is only one saving baptism in the English and the Greek (Eph 4:5) and in all 8 conversions they were water baptized.

It is not water that washes away sins - it is faith in the shed blood of Christ that gives us remission of sins. John did baptize and he did preach baptism for repentance for the remission of sins - the baptism in water did not remit the sin but the preaching of Jesus and John also told the people that there was one coming that was mightier than he and he would baptize in holy Spirit. He was prophesying concerning Jesus Christ and that he would baptize in holy Spirit. Water cannot cleanse the inside of a person; only the outside but the holy Spirit creates within a person a new creature, the new man.

Throughout scripture you can see that when the holy Spirit is spoken of it is attributed the figurative language of water, i.e. living water, being filled with the spirit, the holy Spirit being poured out.

Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. [John 4:13,14]

In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified. [John 7:37-39]

I know that in the record of Cornelius - Peter said "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized. . . " The evidence that they were already saved by believing and before the "water" was that "on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of holy Spirit." Then in 11:15-17 Peter went into an explanation - And as I began to speak, the holy Spirit fell on them, as on us at the beginning. THEN remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized in water; BUT ye shall be baptized with the holy Spirit. For as much then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I that I could withstand God?

What did Peter remember? That the Lord had told them - ye shall be baptized with holy Spirit. Peter still wanted the water - old habits [traditions] die hard. The early church had to deal with a lot of changes. I don't believe there is any record of someone being baptized in water in the church epistles - Romans on. . . . .of course, I could be wrong and just haven't read it.

So I would concur that the one baptism of Ephesians 4:5 is baptism in the holy Spirit.

 

[SeaBass]

no it's does not save us, it only a symbolism that from spiritual death to life... John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

The bible does not say baptism is ONLY a symbol but that is also saves, Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38; 1 Pet 3:21, etc.

Jn 3:16, "believeth" includes baptism, compare Acts 2:41 with Acts 2:41 and see that "believed" in verse 44 includes being baptized of verse 41.


Jn 3:16-----------believing>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
Lk 13:3,5---------repent>>>>>>>>>>>>>not perish/saved
Rom 10:9,10------confession>>>>>>>>>>saves
Mk 16:16---------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>saves

Since there is just one way to be saved, no alternatives, then the only conclusion is that believing must include repentance confession and baptism. For anyone to say "belief only" saves is denying the verses that teach repentance, confession and baptism saves.

 

[gleener]

Ephesians1vrs7 In Him we have the redemption thru His blood the forgiveness of sin according to the riches of His grace and I say thank you God for that colosians1 vrs 14 in whom we have the redemption thru His blood the forgivness of sin Did the Israelites put water over there door or blood to save there first born?

 

[SeaBass]

Not according to the original Greek.
The Greek shows us that water baptism doesn't save.

I will show you from the Greek, that water baptism doesn't save. Next time.




As for the Gentiles in Acts 10, they had to be saved in order to be baptized in the Holy Ghost.

1 Pet 3:21 English > "...baptism doth also now save us...."
1 Pet 3:21 Greek > "...baptisma sōzō kai nyn sōzō hēmas..."

NO verse in Acts 10 or 11 or anywhere else say one has to first be saved before he can be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38 it is water baptism that remits sins, not baptism with the Holy Ghost, so theywere lost until they obeyed the command to be water baptized.

Again, from Acts 11, Peter rehearsed BY ORDER the events that happened and the HS fell upon them as Peter BEGAN to speak, so Peter had not told them the words whereby they would be saved when the HS fell upon them.

 

[notuptome]

The bible does not say baptism is ONLY a symbol but that is also saves, Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38; 1 Pet 3:21, etc.

Jn 3:16, "believeth" includes baptism, compare Acts 2:41 with Acts 2:41 and see that "believed" in verse 44 includes being baptized of verse 41.


Jn 3:16-----------believing>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
Lk 13:3,5---------repent>>>>>>>>>>>>>not perish/saved
Rom 10:9,10------confession>>>>>>>>>>saves
Mk 16:16---------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>saves

Since there is just one way to be saved, no alternatives, then the only conclusion is that believing must include repentance confession and baptism. For anyone to say "belief only" saves is denying the verses that teach repentance, confession and baptism saves.

If sin were on the outside baptism could wash it away. Problem is that sin is internal not external. Only baptism in the Holy Spirit can renew that which was dead in trespass and sin.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SeaBass]

This is what the Greek says about water baptism, In Mk 16. 1 Pet 3: 21 and the rest of those scriptures that you quoted.

[1] Water baptism is the expression, NOT THE MEDIUM, The symbol, NOT THE CAUSE.

[2] In the Greek, there are , "Subjects, verbs, persons and numbers", And they all have to agree in order to build a doctrine.
This is what the Greek says about Acts 2: 38.

REPENT YE,
Ye, is the subject, and "Repent" is the verb,
They both are 2nd in person, and plural in number.

Be BAPTISED EVERYONE OF YOU,
Everyone is the subject, and be baptised is the verb,
They are both 3rd in person and singular in number.

So you can see that, "Repent", and be "Baptised", don't agree in person or number.

AND YOU SHALL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST.
You is the subject, And "Receive the Holy Ghost" is the verb.
They are both 2nd in person and plural in number.

So you can see that it's "Repent and receive the Holy Ghost".
And NOT, Be baptised and receive the Holy Ghost.

And because, "Repent", and "Be baptised", don't agree, It's either.
Repent for the remission of sins, which rules out baptism, Or..
Be baptised for the remission of sins, which rules out repentance, And everyone know we have to repent, Lk 24: 47.

In another post, I have proved from the Bible, that water baptism doesn't save, And now I have shown you what the Greek says.

Huh??????????

Was Peter speaking to one group whom he commanded to repent and then speaking to an entirely different group of people to whom he commanded them to be baptized? NO!!!

Peter was commanding the exact same people he was speaking to that they all repent AND each one be baptized. So no one Peter was speaking to could escape repenting or being baptized. Also the conjunction "and" ties repentance to baptism making them inseparable just as the conjunction "and" in Mk 16:16 makes believing inseparable from baptism.

 

[SeaBass]

70*7 times we'll repeat it:

that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of spirit is spirit.
not the washing away of dirt by water, but the answer or a good conscience towards God.

The fleshly physical birth has nothing to do with the new birth.
Water baptism is an appeal to God for a good conscience for it is in baptism sins are remitted.

 

[SeaBass]

isn't dunking your head in water a self righteous event it shouldn't be but many make it out to be. The just shall live by dunking their head in water?

Baptism is a burial, so just dunking one's head in the water is not baptism. When people are buried in a cemetery, they do not just bury the head leaving the rest of the body sticking out.

Furthermore, water baptism is a command of God, it's not my idea. Therefore being baptized is doing GOD'S righteousness and not my own righteousness.

 

[SeaBass]

let's have another look at what Peter actually wrote:

" ... baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.
It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him."
(2 Peter 3:21-22)

i think Peter makes a distinction between the ritual - which washes water of the body - and what it points to: the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

the resurrection of Jesus Christ saves and redeems us, not being dunked in tap water or a pond.

Water baptism saves because of the resurrection of Christ. If there was no resurrection then baptism would not save, nothing would.

 

[SeaBass]

maybe (but probably not *sigh*) it suffices to say:

a man baptized into the church who has no faith in Christ is not saved by his ritual act.

That's why in Mk 16:16 Jesus put belief BEFORE baptism. Therefore an unbelieving person cannot be scripturally baptized.

So when Jesus said "He that believeth not shall be condemned" the phrase "believeth not" automatically includes the unbaptized for unbelief prevents one from being baptized.

 

[saved1975]

1 Pet 3:21 English > "...baptism doth also now save us...."
1 Pet 3:21 Greek > "...baptisma sōzō kai nyn sōzō hēmas..."

NO verse in Acts 10 or 11 or anywhere else say one has to first be saved before he can be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38 it is water baptism that remits sins, not baptism with the Holy Ghost, so theywere lost until they obeyed the command to be water baptized.

Again, from Acts 11, Peter rehearsed BY ORDER the events that happened and the HS fell upon them as Peter BEGAN to speak, so Peter had not told them the words whereby they would be saved when the HS fell upon them.

English, baptism us a figure, a symbol of salvation.
Greek, baptism is the expression, not the medium, The symbol, not the cause.


It's the repentance that remits sins in
Acts 2: 38, NOT baptism.

 

[saved1975]

Huh??????????

Was Peter speaking to one group whom he commanded to repent and then speaking to an entirely different group of people to whom he commanded them to be baptized? NO!!!

Peter was commanding the exact same people he was speaking to that they all repent AND each one be baptized. So no one Peter was speaking to could escape repenting or being baptized. Also the conjunction "and" ties repentance to baptism making them inseparable just as the conjunction "and" in Mk 16:16 makes believing inseparable from baptism.

You obviously haven't read the Greek that I gave for Acts 2: 38.

 

[SeaBass]

Whatever happened to the blood of Jesus?

Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

What can wash away my sin? Nothing but the BLOOD OF JESUS!

The $68,000 question:

Where and when does Christ's blood wash away sins??????????


Rev 1:5 John said Christ washed us from our sins with His own blood

Jn 19:34 Christ shed His blood in His death.

Rom 6:3-5 it is baptism that puts one into Christ's death where His blood was shed, wo baptism gives one access to that shed blood.

No "faith only" found in any of this.