End of the "world" - Lessons for Literalists

[Larry_Stotle]

(2 Pet 3:6 KJV) Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

There seems to be a common misunderstanding with the above and when viewed in context with the passage below people think there is going to be some future cataclysm wherein the physical earth is destroyed and the universe goes *poof* in flames.

This is all based on ignoring the under lying Greek and such symbolic phrases as "Heavens and Earth".

(2 Pet 3:12 KJV) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


Digging deeper into the flood and the underlying Greek:

(2 Pet 3:5 KJV) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

(2 Pet 3:6 KJV) Whereby the world (Greek - kosmos) that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:


Here is what the Liddell-Scott-Jones Greek Lexicon has to say about "kosmos"

​

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Now generally the Greek word kosmos has been translated as "world"

But as we can see from the above LSJ screen shot it primarily means "order", "states" or "governments" as in #4 above the definition is given as:

4. of states, order, government

If we look into the usage of the Greek word Kosmos where is has been translated as world here:


(John 7:7 KJV) The world (kosmos) cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

​

So is Jesus really saying the "world" hates him or does he have something more specific in mind when making this statement?

Looking at the context for his statement and the translation of kosmos as "world":

(John 7:1-3 KJV) After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him. Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand. His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.

(John 7:4-6 KJV) For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly.

If thou do these things, show thyself to the world (kosmos). For neither did his brethren believe in him. Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready.

(John 7:7 KJV) The world (kosmos) cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

(John 7:8 KJV) Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come.

As can been seen from the above Jesus' brethren are speaking about Jesus showing himself at the feast to the people and the ruling Council - they are not implying the whole world.

And in John 7:7 Jesus is not saying the whole world hated him - who hated him were the ruling council and their supporters because he testified "that the works thereof are evil".

This brings me back to how the Jews understood the "world" or kosmos - when Peter wrote:

(2 Pet 3:6 KJV) Whereby the world (Greek - kosmos) that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

This could quite rightly be translated as:

2 Pet 3:6 Whereby the "order" (Greek - kosmos) that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

The "order" (peoples, rulers) at the time of the flood had totally become corrupt and encompassed the Mesopotamian area.

This is what was destroyed by the flood - to translate "kosmos" as world in 2 Peter 3:6 leads to a wrong impression as it does with translating "kosmos" as world in John 7:1 - 4 when it was the ruling order that is in view.

There in no end of the "world" the destruction in 70AD at the end of the age was the destruction of the Jewish "heavens and earth" represented by the temple and it's priesthood and the close and dissolution of the old covenant economy - never to be seen again.

 

[damombomb]

[SUP]10 [/SUP]But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.[SUP][a][/SUP]
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives [SUP]12 [/SUP]as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.[SUP][b][/SUP] That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

Why are you teaching false stuff?

 

[1still_waters]

Larry do you believe there is a future, bodily, physical resurrection of the dead where the tombs will be emptied, and the bodies will rise incorruptible, followed by a restoration of the physical heavens and Earth?

 

[Drett]

I am not saying your interpretation is right or wrong. I am not qualified. It is just interesting to say system rather than world. The world generally just get along with their daily lives. A bit like sheep. It is the system which is trying to mould the world that don't like competition. A lot Christians here, from my understanding, are happy to step back and let secularism thrive. Their kingdom is not of this world and the system is happy with that. Look around the world and you will see who the system is really after.

 

[Larry_Stotle]

Why are you teaching false stuff?

There is nothing false about it - modern Christianity seems to have lost touch with early Protestant teachings and understanding of figurative speech such as "heavens and earth" and the way it was understood by the Jews.

Adam Clarke (1760 or 1762–1832) was a British Methodist theologian and biblical scholar and states:

Hebrews 12:26 'Whose voice then shook the earth - Namely, at the giving of the law on Mount Sinai; and from this it seems that it was the voice of Jesus that then shook the earth, and that it was he who came down on the mount.

But others refer this simply to God the Father giving the law. Not the earth only, but also heaven - Probably referring to the approaching destruction of Jerusalem, and the total abolition of the political and ecclesiastical constitution of the Jews; the one being signified by the earth, the other by heaven; for the Jewish state and worship are frequently thus termed in the prophetic writings.

Heb 12:27 KJV And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

Adam Clarke:

The removing of those things that are shaken - The whole of the Jewish polity, which had been in a shaken state from the time that Judea had fallen under the power of the Romans.

As of things that are made - That is, subjects intended to last only for a time. God never designed that the Jewish religion should become general, nor be permanent.

Those things which cannot be shaken - The whole Gospel system, which cannot be moved by the power of man.

He's not the only scholar of early protestantism who understood the meaning of "heaven and earth" this way.

Joseph Barber Lightfoot (13 April 1828 – 21 December 1889) was an English theologian and Bishop of Durham, usually known as J.B. Lightfoot.

He was born in Liverpool, where his father was an accountant. He was educated at King Edward's School, Birmingham, under James Prince Lee, afterwards Bishop of Manchester. His contemporaries included Brooke Foss Westcott and Edward White Benson. In 1847 Lightfoot went up to Trinity College, Cambridge, and read for his degree along with Westcott. He graduated senior classic and 30th wrangler, and was elected a fellow of his college. From 1854 to 1859 he edited the Journal of Classical and Sacred Philology. In 1857 he became tutor and his fame as a scholar grew.

From Lightfoot's commentaries -

That the destruction of Jerusalem and the whole Jewish state, is described as if the whole frame of this world were to be dissolved. Nor is it strange, when God destroyed his habitation and city, places once so dear to him, with so direful and sad an overthrow ; his own people, whom he accounted of as much or more, than the whole world beside,— by so dreadful and amazing plagues.

Matt. xxiv. 29, 30 ; "The sun shall be darkened, &c. Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man," &c.; which yet are said to fall out, within that generation, ver. 34.—2 Pet. iii. 10; " The heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat," &c. Compare with this, Deut. xxxii. 22 ; Heb. xii. 26 : and observe, that, by elements, are understood the Mosaic elements, Gal. iv. 9 ; Col. ii. 20 : and you will not doubt, that St. Peter speaks only of the conflagration of Jerusalem, the destruction of the nation and the abolishing the dispensation of Moses.'

Rev. vi. 12, 13 ; " The sun became black as sackcloth of hair, &c., and the heavens departed as a scroll, when it is rolled together," &c. Where, if we take notice of the foregoing plagues, by which, according to the most frequent threatenings, he destroyed that people, viz. the sword, ver. 4,—famine, vs. 5, 6,— and the plague, ver. 8 ; — withal comparing those words, " They say to the mountains, Fall on us and cover us," with Luke xxiii. 30 ;—it will sufficiently appear, that, by those phrases, is understood the dreadful judgment and overthrow of that nation and city. With these also agrees that of Jer. iv. from ver. 22 to 28, and clearly enough explains this phrase. To this appertain those and other expressions, as we meet with, 1 Cor. x. 11, " On us the ends of the world are come:" — and 1 Pet. iv. 7, " The end of all things is at hand." 2. With reference to this, and under this notion, the times, immediately preceding this ruin, are called the " last days," and the "last times," that is, the last times of the Jewish city, nation, economy. This manner of speaking frequently occurs; which let our St. John himself interpret, 1 John ii. 13 ; " There are many antichrists, whereby we know it is the last time : " and that this nation is upon the very verge of destruction, when as it hath already arrived at the utmost pitch of infidelity, apostasy, and wickedness. '

With the same reference it is, that the times and state of things, immediately following the destruction of Jerusalem, are called, a " new creation," " new heavens," and a " new earth " — Isa. lxv.l7; "Behold I create a new heaven and a new earth." When should that be ? Read the whole chapter; and you will find the Jews rejected and cut off; and from that time is that new creation of the evangelical world among the Gentiles. Compare 2 Cor. v. 17, and Rev. xxi. 1,2: where, the old Jerusalem being cut off and destroyed, a new one succeeds ; and new heavens and a new earth are created.'

2 Pet. iii. 13; "We, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth ;" — The heavens and the earth of the Jewish church and commonwealth must be all on fire, and the Mosaic elements burnt up: but we, according to the promise made to us by Isaiah the prophet, when all these are consumed, look for the new creation of the evangelical state.'

The day, the time, and the manner, of the execution of this vengeance upon this people, are called, "The day of the Lord," " The day of Christ," "His coming in the clouds, in his glory, in his kingdom." Nor is this without reason ; for from hence doth this form and mode of speaking take its rise : — ' Christ had not as yet appeared but in a state of humility; contemned, blasphemed, and at length murdered by the Jews : his gospel rejected, laughed at, and trampled under foot: his followers pursued with extreme hatred, persecution, and death itself.

At length, therefore, he displays himself in his glory, his kingdom, and power; and calls for those cruel enemies of his that they may be slain before him. ' Acts ii. 20 : " Before that great and notable day of the Lord come." Let us take notice, how St. Peter applies that prophecy of Joel to those very times ; and it will be clear enough, without any commentary, what that " day of the Lord " is. ' 2 Thess. ii. 2: "As if the day of Christ was at hand," &c. To this, also, do those passages belong, Heb. x. 37, " Yet a little while, — and he, that shall come, will come: " — James v. 9 ; " Behold, the judge is at the door:" — Rev. i. 7; "He cometh in the clouds : " — and xxii. 12 ; " Behold, I come quickly." With many other passages of that nature, all which must be understood of Christ's coming in judgment and vengeance against that wicked nation: and in this very sense must the words, now before us, be taken, and no otherwise, " I will, that he tarry till I come:"—"For thy part, Peter, thou shalt suffer death by thy countrymen the Jews ; but as for him, I will that he shall tarry till I come and avenge myself upon this generation : and if I will so, what is that to thee ? " The story that is told of both these apostles, confirms this exposition ; for it is taken for granted by all, that St. Peter had his crown of martyrdom, before Jerusalem fell; and St. John survived the ruins of it.' (Exerc. in John xxi. 22.)

The works of Lightfoot:

http://www.audiowebman.org/start/books/Lightfoot-John/index-lightfoot.htm

 

[Hizikyah]

So if the Messiah has already returned, where is He?

and

Where is the kingdom of the Most High? with no more death and no more evil?

 

[Larry_Stotle]

Larry do you believe there is a future, bodily, physical resurrection of the dead where the tombs will be emptied, and the bodies will rise incorruptible, followed by a restoration of the physical heavens and Earth?

I see you already started a thread topic re this...

 

[1still_waters]

I see you already started a thread topic re this...

So you don't believe there is a future physical bodily resurrection of the dead, followed by a physically restored heavens and earth?

 

[Larry_Stotle]

So you don't believe there is a future physical bodily resurrection of the dead, followed by a physically restored heavens and earth?

If you've read my last post quoting Adam Clarke and J.B. Lightfoot then you would see when I am stating with them when the new heaven and earth were created - back in 70AD.

The resurrection is not the subject of this thread.

All Christian's are "preterist" to some degree in that they view some of the prophesied events as having come to pass. I don't want to drag this topic all over the place but ALL Christians would agree with the following.

(Zec 9:9 KJV) Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.


(Mat 21:2 KJV) Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.

(Mat 21:3 KJV) And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them.

(Mat 21:4 KJV) All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,

(Mat 21:5 KJV) Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.

No need to answer as I want to keep this thread on topic.

 

[thecreationtutor]

there are literal things in the bible, as well as figurative, and poetic,

 

[Larry_Stotle]

So if the Messiah has already returned, where is He?

and

Where is the kingdom of the Most High? with no more death and no more evil?

I see you want to skip to the end of the book without the chore of reading.

I'll tell you right now - the Butler did it..

 

[Hizikyah]

I see you want to skip to the end of the book without the chore of reading.

I'll tell you right now - the Butler did it..

Nice way to avoid the question.

 

[Larry_Stotle]

Nice way to avoid the question.

Why don't you deal with the issues raised in my posts such as the symbolic usage of "heaven's and earth" rather than trying to derail the thread?

 

[Hizikyah]

Why don't you deal with the issues raised in my posts such as the symbolic usage of "heaven's and earth" rather than trying to derail the thread?

My question is in lint with the thread, Im asking how your view is correct concerning these connected issues.

You started the thread I am asking a question concerning your doctrine.

 

[Larry_Stotle]

My question is in lint with the thread, Im asking how your view is correct concerning these connected issues.

You started the thread I am asking a question concerning your doctrine.

Opening post:

There seems to be a common misunderstanding with the above and when viewed in context with the passage below people think there is going to be some future cataclysm wherein the physical earth is destroyed and the universe goes *poof* in flames.

This is all based on ignoring the under lying Greek and such symbolic phrases as "Heavens and Earth".

Do you have anything to add or rebut to what I've posted?

If not you are derailing the topic.

 

[JesusChica1991]

You mean...I won't even get the chance...to be a zombie or a vampire or a werewolf? Well, pooey.

 

[Larry_Stotle]

You mean...I won't even get the chance...to be a zombie or a vampire or a werewolf? Well, pooey.

Only on Halloween.

 

[Hizikyah]

Opening post:

There seems to be a common misunderstanding with the above and when viewed in context with the passage below people think there is going to be some future cataclysm wherein the physical earth is destroyed and the universe goes *poof* in flames.

This is all based on ignoring the under lying Greek and such symbolic phrases as "Heavens and Earth".

Do you have anything to add or rebut to what I've posted?

If not you are derailing the topic.

Last time and I will drop it.

So I disagree with your view, but if you want me to see things your way the first things that come to mind are:

So if the Messiah has already returned, where is He?

and

Where is the kingdom of the Most High? with no more death and no more evil?

It like 2 glaring facts that before I can even consider anything else concerning this topic I would need for these 2 to be resolved. If these 2 were properly resolved I could then begin to asses things from your view point, if there 2 things are not resolved I can not even begin to asses them from that view because that view WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE.

Its like saying, "hey I need you to fix my car, its in my garage..."

Man replies, "I dont know where you live."

"Are you going to fix my car or not?"

"How can I if I dont know where your house is?"

 

[Larry_Stotle]

Last time and I will drop it.

So I disagree with your view, but if you want me to see things your way the first things that come to mind are

Like I said - trying to jump to the end of the book. So you may as well "drop it".

 

[ob77]

[SUP]10 [/SUP]But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.[SUP][a][/SUP]
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives [SUP]12 [/SUP]as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.[SUP][b][/SUP] That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

Why are you teaching false stuff?

All flesh will be saved, all Israel shall be saved. Since flesh cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, where is it you believe the flesh shall reside? Things created in the terrestrial plane here on earth will not perish. God made an end to the world that was and to all that was resident in it, but of this world age , you, nor anyone else can make that claim. God does not need to recreate "tohu vah bohu" again. God does not say that He will once again have to "recreate" all that He created in the beginning. It will indeed be a new age, a new age without Satan. An age where things can once again get back to normal.