End of the "world" - Lessons for Literalists

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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#21
the flood was a global flood that wiped out everything on earth that had the breath of life...similarly on the day of the lord there will be a renovation by fire that burns the earth clean...

some people just fail at analogy i guess...

also there is no such thing as the 'jewish heavens and earth'...that notion is foreign to scripture which clearly states that the heavens and earth belong to God...

finally this doctrine that the resurrection has already happened and the new heavens and new earth are already here should be regarded as blatantly heretical and not christian...because it violates the nicene creed...the earliest christian statement of faith...

"we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come."
 
L

Larry_Stotle

Guest
#22
the flood was a global flood that wiped out everything on earth that had the breath of life...similarly on the day of the lord there will be a renovation by fire that burns the earth clean...
That's a common misrepresentation.

some people just fail at analogy i guess...
Your guess is worse than mine...:)

also there is no such thing as the 'jewish heavens and earth'...that notion is foreign to scripture which clearly states that the heavens and earth belong to God...
Sure there is you just aren't aware of the usage:

I'll let Josephus the 1st century Jewish historian educate you:

Antiquities Book 3 6:4

As for the inside, Moses parted its length into three partitions. At the distance of ten cubits from the most secret end, Moses placed four pillars, the workmanship of which was the very same with that of the rest; and they stood upon the like bases with them, each a small matter distant from his fellow.

Now the room within those pillars was the most holy place; but the rest of the room was the tabernacle, which was open for the priests. However, this proportion of the measures of the tabernacle proved to be an imitation of the system of the world; for that third part thereof which was within the four pillars, to which the priests were not admitted, is, as it were, a heaven peculiar to God.
But the space of the twenty cubits, is, as it were, sea and land, on which men live, and so this part is peculiar to the priests only.


Antiquities book 3 7:7

Now here one may wonder at the ill-will which men bear to us, and which they profess to bear on account of our despising that Deity which they pretend to honor; for if any one do but consider the fabric of the tabernacle, and take a view of the garments of the high priest, and of those vessels which we make use of in our sacred ministration, he will find that our legislator was a divine man, and that we are unjustly reproached by others; for if any one do without prejudice, and with judgment, look upon these things, he will find they were every one made in way of imitation and representation of the universe.

When Moses distinguished the tabernacle into three parts, and allowed two of them to the priests, as a place accessible and common, he denoted the land and the sea, these being of general access to all; but he set apart the third division for God, because heaven is inaccessible to men
.

More figurative language:

(Isa 13:10 KJV) For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

This is spoken of as the fall of Babylon:

(Isa 13:19 KJV) And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

The figurative language used by Isaiah is used in a similar fashion by Jesus in describing the destruction of the temple, the sack of Jerusalem and the end of the Mosaic Covenant in 70AD

(Mat 24:29 KJV) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Jesus stated that all this would happen in the generation that witnessed his preachings and warnings:

(Mat 24:34 KJV) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The stars of heaven and the sun were not affected physically back when God overthrew Babylon, neither did they in 70 AD.

And more figurative language:

(Isa 13:13 KJV) Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

We see similar figurative language as used above in Hebrews:

(Heb 12:26 KJV) Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

And this is written in the context of the Old Mosaic covenant waxing old and the New Covenant coming into full force:

(Heb 8:13 KJV) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

When considering the figurative language of the sun and moon in a biblical sense we see how it is used here:

(Rev 21:23 KJV) And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

With the destruction of the old heavens and earth represented by the temple and priesthood and that those were representations of the sun, moon and stars as in "Isa 13:10 KJV For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened."
 

ChosenbyHim

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2011
3,343
113
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#23
If you've read my last post quoting Adam Clarke and J.B. Lightfoot then you would see when I am stating with them when the new heaven and earth were created - back in 70AD.

The New Heaven and New Earth were not created back in 70AD.

The New Heaven and New Earth will not be created until after the burning away of the old heavens and old earth, and after the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev. 20).


You better learn how to rightly divide the word of truth. You need to study.
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#24
Sure there is you just aren't aware of the usage:

I'll let Josephus the 1st century Jewish historian educate you:

Antiquities Book 3 6:4

As for the inside, Moses parted its length into three partitions. At the distance of ten cubits from the most secret end, Moses placed four pillars, the workmanship of which was the very same with that of the rest; and they stood upon the like bases with them, each a small matter distant from his fellow.

Now the room within those pillars was the most holy place; but the rest of the room was the tabernacle, which was open for the priests. However, this proportion of the measures of the tabernacle proved to be an imitation of the system of the world; for that third part thereof which was within the four pillars, to which the priests were not admitted, is, as it were, a heaven peculiar to God.
But the space of the twenty cubits, is, as it were, sea and land, on which men live, and so this part is peculiar to the priests only.


Antiquities book 3 7:7

Now here one may wonder at the ill-will which men bear to us, and which they profess to bear on account of our despising that Deity which they pretend to honor; for if any one do but consider the fabric of the tabernacle, and take a view of the garments of the high priest, and of those vessels which we make use of in our sacred ministration, he will find that our legislator was a divine man, and that we are unjustly reproached by others; for if any one do without prejudice, and with judgment, look upon these things, he will find they were every one made in way of imitation and representation of the universe.

When Moses distinguished the tabernacle into three parts, and allowed two of them to the priests, as a place accessible and common, he denoted the land and the sea, these being of general access to all; but he set apart the third division for God, because heaven is inaccessible to men
.
misuse of josephus is a common preterist tactic...

josephus is saying that the tabernacle symbolizes heaven...he is -not- saying that references to 'heaven' symbolize the tabernacle...that is faulty logic...
 
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Larry_Stotle

Guest
#25
This is an interesting statement from Charles Spurgeon and how he viewed the meaning of "the new heavens and the new earth".

This is an excerpt from a sermon he preached in 1865:

Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, or any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it...
(Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).

From John Owen (1616-1683):

(regarding II Peter 3) “It is evident, then, that in the prophetical idiom and manner of speech, by heavens and earth, the civil and religious state and combination of men in the world, and the men of them, were often understood… On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state.
"On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter......to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state."

John Owen (1616 – 1683) was an English Nonconformist church leader, theologian, and academic administrator at the University of Oxford.

From Jonathan Edwards (1703-1758)

The Scriptures further teach us to call the gospel-restoration and redemption, a creation of a new heaven and a new earth… The gospel-state is everywhere spoken of as a renewed state of things, wherein old things are passed away, and all things become new.. And the dissolution of the Jewish state was often spoken of in the Old Testament as the end of the world. But we who belong to the gospel-church, belong to the new creation; and therefore there seems to be at least as much reason, that we should commemorate the work of this creation, as that the members of the ancient Jewish church should commemorate the work of the old creation..
Jonathan Edwards (1703 – 1758) was a Christian preacher and theologian. Edwards "is widely acknowledged to be America's most important and original philosophical theologian," and one of America's greatest intellectuals.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#26
Well yeah....It is the end of the AGE not the end of the world!
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
113
#27
All the Old Testament prophecies which were fulfilled before 70AD have been fulfilled literally, (including Christ prophecy of Jerusalem/temple destruction in 70AD), so there is no reason to believe that the ones yet to come wont be fulfilled literally as well.
In other words what justification do you have to start allegorizing prophecy in order for it to fit a pre-shaped mold?
 
Dec 18, 2013
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#28
Lol one flaw in your argument brother.

Even if one plays into the erroneous assumption that world means region.

Don't forget the fact that it will all be dissolved by fire.

Was Jerusalem and Israel and the Levant region dissolved utterly by fire that all the works of their hands perished by fire?

Nope not yet, but that day shall come.

Also by the way you left out full meaning of Kosmos/Cosmos:
Cosmos | Define Cosmos at Dictionary.com

World English Dictionary
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR="class: tr1"]
[TD="class: td1, colspan: 2"]cosmos (ˈkɒzmɒs) [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: tr2"]
[TD="class: td2, colspan: 2"]— n , -mos , -moses [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]1. [/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]the world or universe considered as an ordered system [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]2. [/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]any ordered system [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]3. [/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]harmony; order [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]4. [/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]any tropical American plant of the genus Cosmos, cultivated as garden plants for their brightly coloured flowers: family Asteraceae (composites) [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: tr5"]
[TD="class: td5, colspan: 2"][C17: from Greek kosmos order, world, universe] [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Heh so I think inadvertently and ironically you have just given yet more proofs for the Literalist fulfillment of End of Days prophecy.
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
1,826
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#29
Lol one flaw in your argument brother.

Even if one plays into the erroneous assumption that world means region.

Don't forget the fact that it will all be dissolved by fire.

Was Jerusalem and Israel and the Levant region dissolved utterly by fire that all the works of their hands perished by fire?

Nope not yet, but that day shall come.

Also by the way you left out full meaning of Kosmos/Cosmos:
Cosmos | Define Cosmos at Dictionary.com

World English Dictionary
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR="class: tr1"]
[TD="class: td1, colspan: 2"]cosmos (ˈkɒzmɒs)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: tr2"]
[TD="class: td2, colspan: 2"]— n , -mos , -moses [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]1.[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]the world or universe considered as an ordered system[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]2.[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]any ordered system[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]3.[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]harmony; order[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]4.[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]any tropical American plant of the genus Cosmos, cultivated as garden plants for their brightly coloured flowers: family Asteraceae (composites)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: tr5"]
[TD="class: td5, colspan: 2"][C17: from Greek kosmos order, world, universe][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Heh so I think inadvertently and ironically you have just given yet more proofs for the Literalist fulfillment of End of Days prophecy.
I do not claim to know all things, but doesn't the Holy Spirit and fire kind of go hand in hand in the bible. By this I mean that the Holy Spirit is referred to as a fire. I know, interchanging the spiritual and the physical. But I think that if one is honest with themselves the Bible does that a lot. Not just in prophecy either. Unless of course you consider the actual events to prophetic. There are a lot of examples of this. I am sure that you are aware of some. When the bible is talking about death it can get a little confusing at times - Wait, is it talking about physical or spiritual death here. Even the apostles didn't hear Jesus when He said to beware the leaven of the Pharisees. For the life of me, I don't know how they thought He was talking about them not bringing bread, but there it is written in scripture.

I will go ahead and say I am a little confused about the fire melting all the elements, but I often hear different takes on prophecy and it seems that no matter which way a person takes there is a scripture where they end up saying, "I think this part is figurative, symbolic, a hyperbole, etc."
 
Dec 18, 2013
6,733
45
0
#30
I do not claim to know all things, but doesn't the Holy Spirit and fire kind of go hand in hand in the bible. By this I mean that the Holy Spirit is referred to as a fire. I know, interchanging the spiritual and the physical. But I think that if one is honest with themselves the Bible does that a lot. Not just in prophecy either. Unless of course you consider the actual events to prophetic. There are a lot of examples of this. I am sure that you are aware of some. When the bible is talking about death it can get a little confusing at times - Wait, is it talking about physical or spiritual death here. Even the apostles didn't hear Jesus when He said to beware the leaven of the Pharisees. For the life of me, I don't know how they thought He was talking about them not bringing bread, but there it is written in scripture.

I will go ahead and say I am a little confused about the fire melting all the elements, but I often hear different takes on prophecy and it seems that no matter which way a person takes there is a scripture where they end up saying, "I think this part is figurative, symbolic, a hyperbole, etc."
I am not so sure the Holy Spirit is fire, but it is true that during the Pentecost event in Acts the Apostles receiving the Holy Spirit is described as tongues of flame. Then again in Jesus baptism by John the Holy Spirit descends on him like a dove. So it is somewhat challenging here to understand for me too.

In terms of the earth and the heavens dissolving by fire though, I believe this is a prophecy that shall literally happen due to the fact such an event is described many times over and always in relation to the End of Days. The sun will be darkened, the moon will turn blood red, the stars shall fall from the heavens, the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, all the mountains will flee from the face of the LORD, all these things shall come to pass. May Jesus come quickly.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#31
I don't want to get caught up in the tongues thing. But Jesus said that it would be a sign of those that follow Him. Now if it were just for the Apostles then why did Paul instruct the church on how they should be used. I meant, did he have a senior moment or did he speak the word of God?
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
1,826
17
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#32
I am not so sure the Holy Spirit is fire, but it is true that during the Pentecost event in Acts the Apostles receiving the Holy Spirit is described as tongues of flame. Then again in Jesus baptism by John the Holy Spirit descends on him like a dove. So it is somewhat challenging here to understand for me too.

In terms of the earth and the heavens dissolving by fire though, I believe this is a prophecy that shall literally happen due to the fact such an event is described many times over and always in relation to the End of Days. The sun will be darkened, the moon will turn blood red, the stars shall fall from the heavens, the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, all the mountains will flee from the face of the LORD, all these things shall come to pass. May Jesus come quickly.
Yes, I do find it interesting that Peter says that the earth will begin the same way that scientists say it started. Compelling, Intriguing...But not enough for me to base anything on. I have wondered though, if God has been here forever (and He has) I can't come to the conclusion that this is the first "earth" that He has made. Eternity is a long time - Backwards or Forwards. I don't like to think about it much, because it makes my mind wonder into places where it probably shouldn't linger.
 
T

tarzan

Guest
#33
Yes, the Holy Spirit is the fire John the Baptist refers to speaking of the baptism of Jesus. Haven't you heard the term for a new Christian "on fire"?

As for blood melting the mountain, this doesn't seem hard to me. Imagine a mountain so covered with blood that from afar the mountain looks like it is melting because of the blood flow. And wouldn't that much blood certainly change the surface of a mountain?

I have been warned of the OP's doctrine in a dream, but I didn't know it until now. In my dream, a dead man with no flesh and a wound in his skull was shooting at me and shot three times. Each time I fell as if dead, but I wasn't hit. I played dead the last time. Then the dead man said, "ask the butler; is he dead?" And the butler said, "yes, he is certainly dead."

This because for the last three days I have been reading Larry's posts because of interest and intrigue because like other doctrines this one seems to make a lot of sense. And I researched the doctrine as I research everything. So now if anyone wanted to understand preterism then I could help. But the inconsistencies are many and hope is dead for those that seek the Lord first, but alive for those who seek their current prosperity as a priority. And how can false doctrines gain recruiters if the doctrines aren't intelligent or believable?

As well, it is true that God made an example of the temple is AD 70 (ish), but that was a sign of things to come. For even as the prophets, priests, and kings were a type of Jesus, so also was the temple a type of God's creation. Therefore, the prophecy was not fulfilled concerning the heavens and the earth, but rather, the prophecy was further established with the temple destruction as evidence of what will become after the 1000 years when Satan is loosed and he gathers his army around Jerusalem to take it back for himself. Now we know God allowed the destruction of the temple by the Romans as a sign and a shadow. We also know Satan cannot destroy the heavens and the earth. So Jesus destroys the heavens and the earth in the war against Satan and his army. Now whether that means by reason of the tumult that these things literally pass completely away and are recreated, as in the elements are dissolved, or that the very face of earth, and also its position in the heavens and therefore the positions of its neighbors are affected, I'm not sure. But I do know that if there is no more Sun or Moon, then it seems to be that the entire universe is utterly wasted and we are brought out of this dimension. I see no other reason for God to allow so much effort in quantum physics and mechanics if we were not to understand some of the possibilities. (Far from saying man has it right, but now we have terminology to fit what we used to only be confused by imagining.)

If any still find literal interpretation of the prophecies that are meant to be literal hard, then maybe it would help to watch a video of a nuclear blast (which we know if tiny man can destroy the earth, how much more can God the universe?) In fact, man's petty technology could recreate the allegorical prophecies of the Bible into reality! A beast with 7 heads and ten horns? Nothing for CGI these days and not far off robotically. Have you seen robotics these days? And with genetic technology, what can be kept back? So if we powerless humans can emulate all of that, then what manner of thinker concludes that God can't or won't do at least what He has said He will do?

I do not relate to such blindness, disregard, and disbelief.
 
T

tarzan

Guest
#34
The dead man in my dream was wearing a tuxedo by the way. Also forgive any grammar errors, I'm using my phone.
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
1,826
17
38
#35
Yes, the Holy Spirit is the fire John the Baptist refers to speaking of the baptism of Jesus. Haven't you heard the term for a new Christian "on fire"?

As for blood melting the mountain, this doesn't seem hard to me. Imagine a mountain so covered with blood that from afar the mountain looks like it is melting because of the blood flow. And wouldn't that much blood certainly change the surface of a mountain?

I have been warned of the OP's doctrine in a dream, but I didn't know it until now. In my dream, a dead man with no flesh and a wound in his skull was shooting at me and shot three times. Each time I fell as if dead, but I wasn't hit. I played dead the last time. Then the dead man said, "ask the butler; is he dead?" And the butler said, "yes, he is certainly dead."

This because for the last three days I have been reading Larry's posts because of interest and intrigue because like other doctrines this one seems to make a lot of sense. And I researched the doctrine as I research everything. So now if anyone wanted to understand preterism then I could help. But the inconsistencies are many and hope is dead for those that seek the Lord first, but alive for those who seek their current prosperity as a priority. And how can false doctrines gain recruiters if the doctrines aren't intelligent or believable?

As well, it is true that God made an example of the temple is AD 70 (ish), but that was a sign of things to come. For even as the prophets, priests, and kings were a type of Jesus, so also was the temple a type of God's creation. Therefore, the prophecy was not fulfilled concerning the heavens and the earth, but rather, the prophecy was further established with the temple destruction as evidence of what will become after the 1000 years when Satan is loosed and he gathers his army around Jerusalem to take it back for himself. Now we know God allowed the destruction of the temple by the Romans as a sign and a shadow. We also know Satan cannot destroy the heavens and the earth. So Jesus destroys the heavens and the earth in the war against Satan and his army. Now whether that means by reason of the tumult that these things literally pass completely away and are recreated, as in the elements are dissolved, or that the very face of earth, and also its position in the heavens and therefore the positions of its neighbors are affected, I'm not sure. But I do know that if there is no more Sun or Moon, then it seems to be that the entire universe is utterly wasted and we are brought out of this dimension. I see no other reason for God to allow so much effort in quantum physics and mechanics if we were not to understand some of the possibilities. (Far from saying man has it right, but now we have terminology to fit what we used to only be confused by imagining.)

If any still find literal interpretation of the prophecies that are meant to be literal hard, then maybe it would help to watch a video of a nuclear blast (which we know if tiny man can destroy the earth, how much more can God the universe?) In fact, man's petty technology could recreate the allegorical prophecies of the Bible into reality! A beast with 7 heads and ten horns? Nothing for CGI these days and not far off robotically. Have you seen robotics these days? And with genetic technology, what can be kept back? So if we powerless humans can emulate all of that, then what manner of thinker concludes that God can't or won't do at least what He has said He will do?

I do not relate to such blindness, disregard, and disbelief.
Well I don't think Revelation has anything to do with WMD, CGI, Robotics, Debit/Credit cards, etc. That was not strong enough. There is no way in the world that Revelation is referring to any kind of technology.
 
L

Larry_Stotle

Guest
#36
It's not a good idea to get definitions for Greek words and how they were used in Greek literature from an English dictionary as language and definition have changed over time.

I suggest you take another look at the Liddell Scot Jones Greek dictionary which is pretty much the standard in Greek matters:




As for the the earth being destroyed by fire:

(Eccl 1:4 KJV) One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

I'm pretty sure Peter would be aware of that scripture.

In regards to fire - we need to consider it's figurative usage:

Luke 12:49 KJV) I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

(Luke 12:50 KJV) But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

(Luke 12:51 KJV) Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

(Luke 12:52 KJV) For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

(Luke 12:53 KJV) The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

I think it's plain from the above (regardless of the baptism statements) that the fire represented turmoil and "fighting"

(Mat 10:34 KJV) Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

(Mat 10:35 KJV) For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

As can be seen Matthew gives another view of this with the "sword".

Adam Clarke on Matt 34:

Think not that I am come to send peace, etc. - The meaning of this difficult passage will be plain, when we consider the import of the word peace, and the expectation of the Jews. I have already had occasion to remark, (Matthew 10:12), that the word שלום (shalom), rendered by the Greeks ειρηνη , was used among the Hebrews to express all possible blessings, temporal and spiritual; but especially the former.

The expectation of the Jews was, that, when the Messiah should come, all temporal prosperity should be accumulated on the land of Judea; therefore την γην , in this verse, should not be translated the earth, but this land. The import of our Lord‘s teaching here is this, Do not imagine, as the Jews in general vainly do, that I am come to send forth, ( βαλλειν ), by forcing out the Roman power, that temporal prosperity which they long for.

I am not come for this purpose, but to send forth ( βαλλειν ) the Roman sword, to cut off a disobedient and rebellious nation, the cup of whose iniquity is already full, and whose crimes cry aloud for speedy vengeance. See also on Luke 12:49 (note). From the time they rejected the Messiah, they were a prey to the most cruel and destructive factions; they employed their time in butchering one another, till the Roman sword was unsheathed against them, and desolated the land.
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(1 Pet 1:7 KJV) That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

The "trial by fire" is speaking of the persecutions.

(2 Pet 3:7 KJV) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

We need to ask why would the "heavens and the earth" be reserved for fire until the day of judgment of ungodly men unless the "heavens and earth" figuratively represented the Jewish polity and apostate Israel?

What did the heavens and earth do wrong to be destroyed by fire?

The bible is full of poetic descriptions of destruction with "fire"

(Isa 10:17 KJV) And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;

(Ezek 20:47 KJV) And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein.

Obviously the above is not dealing with vegetation.

(Isa 26:11 KJV) LORD, when thy hand is lifted up, they will not see: but they shall see, and be ashamed for their envy at the people; yea, the fire of thine enemies shall devour them.
 
Dec 18, 2013
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#37
From Strong's Greek:

Strong's Greek: 2889. κόσμος (kosmos) -- order, the world

kosmos: order, the world​
Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kosmos
Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
Short Definition: the world, universe
Definition: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.


So yet again, preterism falls on its face.
 
L

Larry_Stotle

Guest
#38
From Strong's Greek:

Strong's Greek: 2889. κόσμος (kosmos) -- order, the world

kosmos: order, the world​
Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kosmos
Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
Short Definition: the world, universe
Definition: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.


So yet again, preterism falls on its face.
Not really those definitions are not all in the Strong's they are added from usages and translations found in English bibles.

This is a common mistake for websites such as the one you've linked to and blueletterbible which adds usages found in such as Thayers - the whole thing is a mismash.

I don't have my copy of Strong's with me to show you the difference.

Strong's is a concordance - that's why it's called Strong's Concordance not a lexicon - it does not purport to be a definitive source of meaning of Greek words such as the Liddell-Scot Jones Lexicon (premier lexicon for ancient Greek) -confusing the two is a common mistake.

LSJ: Liddell-Scott-Jones Greek-English Lexicon - E-resources

Concordance:

1 - an alphabetical list of the words (especially the important ones) present in a text, usually with citations of the passages concerned.

Lexicon:

1 - a book containing an alphabetical arrangement of the words in a language and their definitions.

Translating the Greek word kosmos into English poses severals problem - but people who look for signs of "His coming" in the newspapers and on the Telly usually have not put the effort into studying much.

While I'm no fan of A.E. Knoch he does a pretty good explantion of the difficulties involved:

THE WORLD OR KOSMOS
by A.E. Knoch​


SYSTEM, or order, is the underlying thought in the word kosmos, which is usually rendered world in English. We seriously considered dropping the word world at one time, as it is more or less encrusted with misleading theological ideas. But there does not seem to be a very good substitute. We might have tried system, or even kosmos, using the Greek word, as we did with eon. In the sublinear we were free to put it as it should be, SYSTEM. Even with this it is almost impossible for some of us to shake off the old associations, such as we find in the phrase, "the world, the flesh, and the devil," so we think of the world as something essentially bad and incurably evil. It is the faded figure "association," by which that which is included in a system is called by this name.

But a SYSTEM or world is not in itself undesirable. On the contrary, the use of this word for adornment (1 Peter 3:3), which is its usual sense when used as a verb, adorn, decorate (Luke 21:5; Titus 2:10, etc.), shows that it may be very agreeable indeed. This is further confirmed by the adverb and adjective, which is decorous (1 Tim.2:9; 3:2). It is clear that world has in some way lost much of its real contents, and has taken on an evil tinge which it does not really possess.
Full article:

THE WORLD OR KOSMOS, by Adolph E Knoch


So with the above in mind explain to me how Jesus in the verse below could be showing himself to the world when he'd only traveled throughout Israel:

(John 7:4 KJV) For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, show thyself to the world.
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#39
noah's flood was a literal flood of literal water...the renovation by fire at the end of the world will be a literal burning by literal fire...

again it seems like some people are just failing to grasp the concept of analogy...
 

Rachel20

Senior Member
May 7, 2013
1,639
105
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#40
Matthew 24:12 says.

And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.


I know that in the present modern times, right in the country where I live, there are many remote places (islands of Andaman and Nicobar Islands) where human civilization doesn't even have contact with the mainlands. They definitely don't know the gospel of Christ.

How did they hear of it in 70 AD, if all these things have already come to pass?