Did anyone ever get "saved" in the old testament?

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K

Kerry

Guest
#41
#41
Timeline said:
6 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? [SUP]2 [/SUP]May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? [SUP]3 [/SUP]Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, [SUP]6 [/SUP]knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; [SUP]7 [/SUP]for he who has died is freed from sin.

If Jesus wasn't raised, then His death would not save us. We are resurrected "so that we too might walk in newness of Life. Yes, His death was important, but we are freed from death in His resurrection. It seems strange to me that you would think we are saved by death only. Yes, we die to our old selves, but we must be raised a new creature.
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But how could He be resurrected if He did not die first?
 
RedTent

RedTent

Banned
#42
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
182
0
#42

Phil, I think your view of what the bible says is flawed.
No one could get saved (Born again) untill Jesus died, Rom 5: 8--10. 2 Cor 5: 19.
And rose again, 1 Cor 15: 17--22.
saved1975 is real close to my train of thought here.
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While it is true that being saved after the cruifiction was different from the atonement by blood in the OT, it is not true that washing away sin through blood before Christ was completely ineffectual.Leviticus 17:11 (NIV) For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.

The Kingdom of God is to come. Where does it say that "no man has hear God"?
Simona, I believe the Kingdom of God arrived with Christ. He told the woman at the well "the time cometh and now is...."
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The entire bible is about the kingdom of God.That is what the garden of Eden consisted of.Christ told us to pray about the kingdom, He spoke of this before He was cruicified.Mat 6:10Your kingdom come. Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Gen 2:15The LORD God took the man and placed him in the garden of Eden to work it and watch over it.

Yes, by faith through grace...never by law. Heb. 11

Abraham got saved by faith. Now of course there are many saints from the old testament going to heaven, but they didn't get saved in the same manner as we do in the new testament.
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They were saved by the shadow of the blood of Christ in the OT.Some of the Hebrews tried to use blood for salvation in the same way that the idol worshippers used blood, to satisfy a God.We are told how unacceptable that was to God in Isaiah.Isa 1:11 "What are all your sacrifices to Me?" asks the LORD. "I have had enough of burnt offerings and rams and the fat of well-fed cattle; I have no desire for the blood of bulls, lambs, or male goats.

It is always the blood of Christ that saves, even the shadow of the blood of Christ, and nothing else ever.

I want you all to think, and think seriously about this. The new testament, the new covenant, was ushered in by the Holy Ghost. The Spirit impregnated Mary, brought us Christ, inspired holy men to write down God's words, and on and on. This is a new testament. The old is done away.
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Nowhere does it say that all covenants except the new one are to be wiped out.In Hebrews it says : Heb_8:13By saying, a new covenant, He has declared that the first is old. And what is old and aging is about to disappear.Even that does not say that it has disappeared and we are not to know about it ever again.It also does not say what scripture means by the “old” one, there were many, many covenants.A covenant is an ongoing agreement between two parties and cannot be cancelled.A testament can be cancelled, but a covenant can’t.The first covenant had to do with knowing sin by eating of the tree of knowledge.That is over, we know.The Mosaic covenant has to do with “if you obey I will bless, if you disobey, I will punish”.That punishment cannot be giving death, for no scripture says that works will gain salvation ever, so not working could not gain death.We know that sin brings punishment, like if you steal you go to jail, and that is apart from the forgiveness that God offers to all.

I
submit to you this: Any clinging to the old testament as a form of commandment is rejecting the work of the Spirit.
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That is impossible for those who believe in the bible as breathed by the Lord.The only commandment in the entire bible is that it takes Christ to save.Otherwise, bible gives ways to live within the kingdom, but we are given free will throughout.

Think about what I am saying. When you say we must obey old testament commandments, when the new covenant clearly refutes that, you are saying what the Spirit brought isn't good enough for you and you must fall back on the old directives for salvation. /QUOTE]
When there is no scripture in the entire bible that says that works will achieve salvation, this statement has no scriptural basis.Scripture says that God is Holy,
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Timeline

Timeline

Senior Member
#45
Mar 20, 2014
1,826
17
38
#45
Timeline said:
How could He die if He wasn't born first.
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How could He be born if His mother wasn't born first. How could His life, death, and resurrection be required if Adam hadn't taken that fruit from Eve (Although, I wonder how things would have gone if Eve had taken the fruit, but Adam didn't). Blah, Blah, Blah. We are saved through the resurrection from the death of a perfect life.
 
Timeline

Timeline

Senior Member
#48
Mar 20, 2014
1,826
17
38
#48
Oh, Oh...And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived. Oh, we were talking about being spiritually saved, never mind.
 
P

phil112

Guest
#49
#49
RedTent said:

(1)Phil, I think your view of what the bible says is flawed.


(2)While it is true that being saved after the cruifiction was different from the atonement by blood in the OT, it is not true that washing away sin through blood before Christ was completely ineffectual.Leviticus 17:11 (NIV) For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.



(3)The entire bible is about the kingdom of God.That is what the garden of Eden consisted of.Christ told us to pray about the kingdom, He spoke of this before He was cruicified.Mat 6:10Your kingdom come. Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Gen 2:15The LORD God took the man and placed him in the garden of Eden to work it and watch over it.



(4a)They were saved by the shadow of the blood of Christ in the OT.Some of the Hebrews tried to use blood for salvation in the same way that the idol worshippers used blood, to satisfy a God.We are told how unacceptable that was to God in Isaiah.Isa 1:11 "What are all your sacrifices to Me?" asks the LORD. "I have had enough of burnt offerings and rams and the fat of well-fed cattle; I have no desire for the blood of bulls, lambs, or male goats.

(4b)It is always the blood of Christ that saves, even the shadow of the blood of Christ, and nothing else ever.



(5)Nowhere does it say that all covenants except the new one are to be wiped out.In Hebrews it says : Heb_8:13By saying, a new covenant, He has declared that the first is old. And what is old and aging is about to disappear. (6)Even that does not say that it has disappeared and we are not to know about it ever again.It also does not say what scripture means by the “old” one, there were many, many covenants. (7)A covenant is an ongoing agreement between two parties and cannot be cancelled.A testament can be cancelled, but a covenant can’t. (8)The first covenant had to do with knowing sin by eating of the tree of knowledge.That is over, we know.The Mosaic covenant has to do with “if you obey I will bless, if you disobey, I will punish”.That punishment cannot be giving death, for no scripture says that works will gain salvation ever, so not working could not gain death.We know that sin brings punishment, like if you steal you go to jail, and that is apart from the forgiveness that God offers to all.

I

That is impossible for those who believe in the bible as breathed by the Lord. (9)The only commandment in the entire bible is that it takes Christ to save.Otherwise, bible gives ways to live within the kingdom, but we are given free will throughout.

Think about what I am saying. When you say we must obey old testament commandments, when the new covenant clearly refutes that, you are saying what the Spirit brought isn't good enough for you and you must fall back on the old directives for salvation. /QUOTE]
When there is no scripture in the entire bible that says that works will achieve salvation, this statement has no scriptural basis.Scripture says that God is Holy,
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1. Of course you think that. You think anyone that doesn't agree with you is wrong. No surprise here, is there.
2. Yes it was ineffectual. That is why it had to be repeated. See Hebrews 10:1
3. I never said it wasn't. Stop trying to twist the meaning of my words, like you do scripture.
4a & b. Give me scripture.
5. And nowhere did I say that. More perversion of statements by you. That is a bad habit you have. You should work on breaking that.
6. Tell us, in specific and direct words, what Hebrews 8:7 means to you.
7. I am really tired of you ignoring true scripture. That covenant was not between you and God. The new one is.
8. I really have no idea how you come up with some of this stuff. Even in the old testament we are told the sinner may not be punished here. Ecclesiastes 8:11
9. Why, WHY, don't you read the new testament? John 15:10, Matthew 22:36-40

To be perfectly honest, I quit going because it tires me to answer the same false doctrine over and over. I have never seen anyone post stuff with as many holes in it as you do. red, why do you dislike the new covenant so?
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RedTent

RedTent

Banned
#50
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
182
0
#50
phil112 said:
RedTent said:
1. Of course you think that. You think anyone that doesn't agree with you is wrong. No surprise here, is there.
2. Yes it was ineffectual. That is why it had to be repeated. See Hebrews 10:1
3. I never said it wasn't. Stop trying to twist the meaning of my words, like you do scripture.
4a & b. Give me scripture.
5. And nowhere did I say that. More perversion of statements by you. That is a bad habit you have. You should work on breaking that.
6. Tell us, in specific and direct words, what Hebrews 8:7 means to you.
7. I am really tired of you ignoring true scripture. That covenant was not between you and God. The new one is.
8. I really have no idea how you come up with some of this stuff. Even in the old testament we are told the sinner may not be punished here. Ecclesiastes 8:11
9. Why, WHY, don't you read the new testament? John 15:10, Matthew 22:36-40

To be perfectly honest, I quit going because it tires me to answer the same false doctrine over and over. I have never seen anyone post stuff with as many holes in it as you do. red, why do you dislike the new covenant so?
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On CC we are supposed to be speaking of scripture, I give you scripture. You don't answer to one word of it, instead you use your boxing gloves to accuse and your accusations have not one basis of fact.

I have made it clear that I am a Christian, I do my best to never disobey God by accusing, yet you decide to make me into a person who must personally be agreed with, twist scripture instead of humbly listening to it, won't read scripture, all sorts of stuff to try to destroy everything I believe in and am. According to how Christ explains murdering, this is your intent to me. There isn't one response to the scripture that I gave, except that you want MORE scripture and that in regard to the blood of Christ!!!
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