Does water baptism save us

[posthuman]

I've never argued baptism alone saves.

1 Pt 3:21 Peer did not say "baptism alone now saves us", but he is using baptism as a synecdoche were baptism includes belief, repentance, confession.

no, you didn't

i think the greater part of the exception the brethren are taking in this thread is with honoring a work - a ritual - above the Lord.

probably just a perception thing. i never said we shouldn't be baptized either; but i think it's more fitting to speak of Christ as the author of my salvation than any specific act of obedience, and like Peter, don't see washing dirt away with water as the principal thing, but faith & obedience.

i doubt anyone is advocating disobedience; they're just being sure to give God alone the glory for the gift of salvation, and not some physical rite.

 

[posthuman]

Baptism is not taking a bath putting away the filth of the flesh (1 Pet 3:20-21) Peter makes this clear, it is a spiritual cleansing putting you in spiritual contact with the cleansing blood of Christ, the answer of a good conscience.

then true baptism is not with good ol' H20.

 

[posthuman]

... Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law.
Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works.
They have stumbled over the stumbling stone ....
(Romans 9:31-32)

same thing goes for us as it did for those under the law of Moses!
we must obediently pursue salvation by faith, not as though it were based on works.

 

[Jabberjaw]

then true baptism is not with good ol' H20.

Ill quote it again, Ill underline it, Ill even make it bold for you :

1 Peter 3:20-21 (NKJV) [SUP]20 [/SUP] who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. [SUP]21 [/SUP] There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

See the water in there? that's H2O, like H2O washed away the sins of the world in the times of Noah, the water now washes the "antitype" which is us, then Peter with emphases states plainly so you will not get this mixed up with taking a bath, "not the removal of the filth of the flesh" telling us water baptism is a physical thing done in physical water but has a spiritual cleansing by the spiritual blood of our savior...

It is harder to conform to your man made doctrine, than to read it as it is, the truth.

 

[posthuman]

what part of "not the removal of filth from the body" is so hard to understand?

what kind of soap do you use when you wash your soul?

which apostle taught that water purifies us and takes away sin? but blood.

knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.
(1 Peter 1:18-19)

Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever.
(Revelation 1:5-6)

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
(1 John 1:7)

How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
(Hebrews 9:14)

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
(Ephesians 1:7-10)

And through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
(Colossians 1:20)

And they sang a new song, saying,

“Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals,​

for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth.”
​

(Revelation 5:9-10)

what cleanses us from sin? 'sblood or water?

brother that's not a "doctrine of man" but the revealed mystery and testimony of God.

 

[Jabberjaw]

what part of "not the removal of filth from the body" is so hard to understand?

what kind of soap do you use when you wash your soul?

which apostle taught that water purifies us and takes away sin? but blood.

knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.
(1 Peter 1:18-19)

Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever.
(Revelation 1:5-6)

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
(1 John 1:7)

How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
(Hebrews 9:14)

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
(Ephesians 1:7-10)

And through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
(Colossians 1:20)

And they sang a new song, saying,

“Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals,​

for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth.”
​

(Revelation 5:9-10)

what cleanses us from sin? 'sblood or water?

brother that's not a "doctrine of man" but the revealed mystery and testimony of God.

And how do you come into contact with that spiritual blood? water baptism :

Romans 6:3-4 (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

1 Peter 3:20-21 (NKJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. [SUP]21 [/SUP]There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

 

[Cobus]

 Ephesians 5:26 (NKJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,

This means water baptism, you cannot obey "the word of God" and not be baptized.

Do you reall ythink this WATER BY THE WORD is h2O...WOW!

Or is it this water?
If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water......Whosoever drinketh of this water (h2O) shall thirst again:
Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water (the Word of God)that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

And this water....
Joh_7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (WORD OF GOD)

I know it is the WORD OF GOD the LIVING WATER is the WORD of God.... Washing of water by the WORD (of GOD)

And if you do not change after this proof I have no more to give sorry! This is why the SPIRIT BAPTISM is tha salvation... Paul SAYS the baptism (water baptism) is the FOUNDATION of the salvation.


Jesus says those that persevere to the end shall be saved... persevere to what end? And what shall save them if MANY were ot saved by waterbaptism... In fact I do not know a SINGLE person that is saved AFTER water baptism not ONE! They are all in sin still ALL!

 

[Jabberjaw]

Do you reall ythink this WATER BY THE WORD is h2O...WOW!

Or is it this water?
If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water......Whosoever drinketh of this water (h2O) shall thirst again:
Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water (the Word of God)that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

And this water....
Joh_7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (WORD OF GOD)

I know it is the WORD OF GOD the LIVING WATER is the WORD of God.... Washing of water by the WORD (of GOD)

Yes, the word of God is "living water" and you must live by that word of God, including obeying the commands like Mark 16:16 that say one MUST be baptized.

And if you do not change after this proof I have no more to give sorry! This is why the SPIRIT BAPTISM is tha salvation... Paul SAYS the baptism (water baptism) is the FOUNDATION of the salvation.

Now if that is not a contradiction I don't know what is...

You cannot prove baptism of the Holy Spirit which is done by Jesus ALONE, saves... especially since the disciples were commissioned to make more disciples by teaching and baptizing them, and the only baptism disciples can do is water baptism making it the one salvific baptism of Eph 4:5, but remember, even this baptism of water cannot save alone.

Nothing alone will save you.

Jesus says those that persevere to the end shall be saved... persevere to what end? And what shall save them if MANY were ot saved by waterbaptism... In fact I do not know a SINGLE person that is saved AFTER water baptism not ONE! They are all in sin still ALL!

Well yea, if you don't know anyone that is water baptized, and baptism is what washes away your sins, your right, they are all in sin...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I didn't say they were saved by faith alone. They still had to keep the old law. I am not adding anything that Jesus did not add. Surely you will agree that baptism is a command. Whether we agree or not we must follow His commands.

They were saved by Law? Hebrews says they were not saved by the law. Did the author mess it up?

Yes we should follow his commands, But can this save us, or is it a result of us being saved?

you said God cannot enter any unclean thing, you are borrowing this from the Old Testament. Read the context carefully. He shows the purpose of this Holy Spirit baptism was to convince the Jews that the Gentiles also had a part of God's plan. It was not intended for salvation.

lol.

So The baptism of God is not for salvation. And the baptism performed by man is. You need to study. we are not cleaned by the hands of men, but the hands of God.

 

[Linda70]

Would love to know what "spiritual blood" is!

Jesus Christ shed real, literal blood on the cross of Calvary that He applied to the "mercy seat" in heaven. He redeemed us with His own blood.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

“Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.” – John 20:17

“Between His appearing to Mary and His appearing later in the day to His other disciples, our Lord ascended into Heaven, fulfilling the type of the wave sheaf of Leviticus 23:9-14. As the firstfruits of the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:23), He must be presented before Jehovah to be accepted for us (Leviticus 23:11). This must take place before His presentation to any other. Another type fulfilled was that of the Day of Atonement. Our Lord had accomplished His sacrifice and when He was seen by Mary, He was, as it were, on His way to enter into the presence of God to present there His own blood on our behalf (Hebrews 9:11-12). All this, of course, must take place immediately upon His resurrection in order to perfectly fulfill the requirements of the typical Scriptures” (William Pettingill).

We do not "come into contact with any blood, spiritual or otherwise". Water baptism has never, nor will it ever, save anyone! Water baptism is an outward profession of our inward confession of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. It is a picture of our identification with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection. (Romans 6:3-4)

1 Peter 3:21 and all the other "proof-texts" you baptismal regeneration believers are using don't really "prove" that water baptism saves.

 

[Jabberjaw]

lol.

So The baptism of God is not for salvation.

no.

And the baptism performed by man is.

yes.
Matthew 28:19-20 (NKJV) [SUP]19 [/SUP] Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP] teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

You need to study. we are not cleaned by the hands of men, but the hands of God.

we are cleansed by the Lords blood and the baptism he commissioned puts us in contact with that blood.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Would love to know what "spiritual blood" is!

Jesus Christ shed real, literal blood on the cross of Calvary that He applied to the "mercy seat" in heaven. He redeemed us with His own blood.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Revelation 1:5 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,


Did He physically wash our sins away with his physical blood? or was this a spiritual washing?

I think you know the answer to that.

“Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.” – John 20:17

“Between His appearing to Mary and His appearing later in the day to His other disciples, our Lord ascended into Heaven, fulfilling the type of the wave sheaf of Leviticus 23:9-14. As the firstfruits of the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:23), He must be presented before Jehovah to be accepted for us (Leviticus 23:11). This must take place before His presentation to any other. Another type fulfilled was that of the Day of Atonement. Our Lord had accomplished His sacrifice and when He was seen by Mary, He was, as it were, on His way to enter into the presence of God to present there His own blood on our behalf (Hebrews 9:11-12). All this, of course, must take place immediately upon His resurrection in order to perfectly fulfill the requirements of the typical Scriptures” (William Pettingill).

William does not know what he was talking about, there were not two ascensions, and Jesus was not part of the Levitical priesthood, He was from the tribe of Judah, after His death he was no longer under the Law of Moses.

We do not "come into contact with any blood, spiritual or otherwise". Water baptism has never, nor will it ever, save anyone! Water baptism is an outward profession of our inward confession of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. It is a picture of our identification with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection. (Romans 6:3-4)

1 Peter 3:21 and all the other "proof-texts" you baptismal regeneration believers are using don't really "prove" that water baptism saves.

You quote Romans 6:3-4 which is baptism, and 1 Peter 3:21 (and don't forget 1 Peter 3:20, you can't understand verse 21 without verse 20) which is clearly "water baptism" and agree there is only one baptism or reject Eph 4:5 as scripture, then completely reject what you just quoted?

You see how man made doctrine will take you in circles?

 

[Linda70]

A Temple In Heaven?

Q. Could you give me some scripture for Christ sprinking his blood upon an actual “Mercy Seat” in heaven. My pastor says he can’t find any scripture for a “heavenly mercy seat” piece of furnishing where Christ sprinkled his blood after his resurrection. I was taught that the earthly tabernacle and all it’s furnishings were a picture of what was coming in Christ and his sacrifice on our behalf. I didn’t realize there is an actual temple with furnishings in Heaven.

A. Revelation 15:5-8 speaks a Temple in Heaven, which John called the Tabernacle of the Testimony. My claim that Jesus entered the temple there to sprinkle His blood on the mercy seat comes from Hebrews 9:11-12.

But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.

This is also consistent with the Yom Kippur ceremony which required the High Priest to sprinkle the blood of the sacrifice on the mercy seat to complete the process of atonement for the sins of the people. The idea was that when God looked down upon the Ark and saw the tablets containing the Law the people had broken, He would be looking through the blood of the sacrifice and His hand of judgment would be stayed.

Jesus In The Heavenly Tabernacle

Q. Did Jesus go to heaven to apply his blood to the mercy seat there?

A. I believe that was His purpose on the day of His resurrection. He hinted of this in the morning while speaking to Mary Magdalene (John 20:17). By evening He was back (John 20:19). Also the writer of Hebrews made mention of Him entering the Most Holy Place of a tabernacle that’s not part of this creation with His own blood in the capacity of our High Priest (Hebrews 9:11-14). The only time a High Priest could enter the Most Holy Place was on the Day of Atonement to sprinkle the blood of the sacrifice on the mercy seat.
*******************************************************************
You can keep on "twisting" Scriptures to try to "prove" baptismal regeneration, but that will not change the truth. Water baptism has never, nor will it ever, save anyone! You are teaching "works salvation", plain and simple.

 

[Jabberjaw]

A Temple In Heaven?

Q. Could you give me some scripture for Christ sprinking his blood upon an actual “Mercy Seat” in heaven. My pastor says he can’t find any scripture for a “heavenly mercy seat” piece of furnishing where Christ sprinkled his blood after his resurrection. I was taught that the earthly tabernacle and all it’s furnishings were a picture of what was coming in Christ and his sacrifice on our behalf. I didn’t realize there is an actual temple with furnishings in Heaven.

A. Revelation 15:5-8 speaks a Temple in Heaven, which John called the Tabernacle of the Testimony. My claim that Jesus entered the temple there to sprinkle His blood on the mercy seat comes from Hebrews 9:11-12.

But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.

This is also consistent with the Yom Kippur ceremony which required the High Priest to sprinkle the blood of the sacrifice on the mercy seat to complete the process of atonement for the sins of the people. The idea was that when God looked down upon the Ark and saw the tablets containing the Law the people had broken, He would be looking through the blood of the sacrifice and His hand of judgment would be stayed.

Jesus In The Heavenly Tabernacle

Q. Did Jesus go to heaven to apply his blood to the mercy seat there?

A. I believe that was His purpose on the day of His resurrection. He hinted of this in the morning while speaking to Mary Magdalene (John 20:17). By evening He was back (John 20:19). Also the writer of Hebrews made mention of Him entering the Most Holy Place of a tabernacle that’s not part of this creation with His own blood in the capacity of our High Priest (Hebrews 9:11-14). The only time a High Priest could enter the Most Holy Place was on the Day of Atonement to sprinkle the blood of the sacrifice on the mercy seat.
*******************************************************************
You can keep on "twisting" Scriptures to try to "prove" baptismal regeneration, but that will not change the truth. Water baptism has never, nor will it ever, save anyone! You are teaching "works salvation", plain and simple.

you say I am twisting? according to this man made doctrine, everyone since the cross is saved...

 

[Linda70]

you say I am twisting? according to this man made doctrine, everyone since the cross is saved...

The sacrifice of Christ was universal....He died for the sins of the world. However, there is NO salvation without trusting in Christ's finished work on the cross.

Yes, you do twist Scripture when you attempt to "prove" that the water of a baptismal font will save a person's soul from the devil's hell.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

no.


yes.

well we can say this.

there is NO POWER in your salvation. You hold the baptism performed by sinful man over the baptism performed by God. Good luck with your eternity.

I will keep my faith in the work of God. which is far greater than the work of any man.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The sacrifice of Christ was universal....He died for the sins of the world. However, there is NO salvation without trusting in Christ's finished work on the cross.

Yes, you do twist Scripture when you attempt to "prove" that the water of a baptismal font will save a person's soul from the devil's hell.

he trusts the baptism performed by a sinner, over the baptism performed by the Almighty God.

That says enough

 

[Linda70]

he trusts the baptism performed by a sinner, over the baptism performed by the Almighty God.

That says enough

It certainly does.

Works salvation, pure and simple....very obvious.

 

[Jabberjaw]

The sacrifice of Christ was universal....He died for the sins of the world. However, there is NO salvation without trusting in Christ's finished work on the cross.

Yes, you do twist Scripture when you attempt to "prove" that the water of a baptismal font will save a person's soul from the devil's hell.

Tell me, what does this mean to you? :

 Matthew 28:20 (NKJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

 

[Linda70]

Tell me, what does this mean to you? :

 Matthew 28:20 (NKJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

How about quoting the two verses preceding 20....18 & 19?

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The Great Commission involves two major tasks: Evangelism and discipleship.

The Gospel is to be proclaimed to every person; those who believe on Christ are to be baptized and trained. The Great Commission is to be fulfilled by the churches and is to result in the multiplication of churches as we see in the New Testament pattern as seen in the book of Acts.

Verse 20 alone does not teach that we are saved by being water baptized. Water (believer's) baptism is one of the two ordinances of the Church....the other one being the Lord's Supper. It is done AFTER a person BELIEVES demonstrating that person's identity with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection...NOT FOR salvation, but BECAUSE OF salvation. You twist the Scriptures and put the cart before the horse ....and this gives people a false assurance of salvation and sends those people to the devil's hell and ultimately to spend eternity in the lake of fire!