Money, Coffee, and Selfish Christians

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Agreed about the weed. I used to smoke weed, and it would cause me problems. Then one day after I smoked, the Lord literally, like a thunder in my head, brought me to my knees as I was walking home and told me that I WILL OBEY and I WILL STOP SMOKING that. Literally, on my knees, in the middle of the street in the middle of the day. The voice was so overwhelming that I was no longer anxious from the drug, but I was terrified for hours because of the thunder in my mind that resonated.

I hear people say and still see people, even people claiming to be Christian, who smoke. And some I think actually really are Christians that are not yet right. I can't say I'm fully right, that would be a lie. But, as for me, the Lord has made this a strictly NO - NO thing. And I have been away from it long enough to hate the stuff and to mostly despise the kinds of characters attracted to it. Now whole families are believing this stuff is good and should be done. It's insanity!

Wine is another thing the Lord hasn't been too happy with us having. It seems He is most okay with us, if we want, to have some beer.

On point, around the same time I was having massive problems with the drug thing, caffeine would cause the same problem with me. I had to go decaf for a long time. Then eventually I was able to have the coffee again. And so far, it doesn't seem like the Lord has been unhappy with us having coffee.

I believe that the Lord knows each individual and knows what He will allow and disallow for each individual and how it will affect the lives of His children.

I missed this yesterday. I think it's different for everyone. Weed is very iffy; when I did smoke it in the past, I never liked the taste, smell, or feeling. It never struck me as a good thing that needs to be consumed. Anyway, there are times when things are good for us that wouldn't normally be so and vice versa. It depends on so many variables, so people should be more open to the Holy Spirit's leading rather than making things black and white so things can be boxed and sorted neatly. As far as weed, I just never got a good witness on it, but it's different for everyone.
 
I missed this yesterday. I think it's different for everyone. Weed is very iffy; when I did smoke it in the past, I never liked the taste, smell, or feeling. It never struck me as a good thing that needs to be consumed. Anyway, there are times when things are good for us that wouldn't normally be so and vice versa. It depends on so many variables, so people should be more open to the Holy Spirit's leading rather than making things black and white so things can be boxed and sorted neatly. As far as weed, I just never got a good witness on it, but it's different for everyone.

Did you inhale?
 
I think you could add to your list sports. I see so many of my Christian friends overly concerned about their favorite sports team.

There are lots of things you can add, but I was talking specifically about how coffee (and money) draws the self-centered nature of Christians to the fore. I tend to talk like that-- just one thing at a time. There are lots of issues and problems, but the root of all of it is the flesh or self-centered nature which can defile and make the best things appear evil... like money and coffee, etc.
 
Since I am probably the only one who is going to engage you on this I will.

I was just researching the effects of caffeine. Yes, it causes brain changes almost immediately. No one notices.

Hard stimulants cause psychosis. Does coffee cause psychosis? Yep, it sure does. Only in a small percentage off people, but it does happen. I'm one of them, I think. I get just so sick with coffee, first laughing and then I crash. And coffee causes people to sleep less deeply at night. Even one cup a day and the EEG's start changing. Over time, it's an addiction. And people on CC like to make a big deal of alcohol but is it acceptable for the coffee highs and what not? It dehydrates people. The reason it picks you up is it releases adrenaline and causes sugars to be metabolized, this makes your sugars drop and you get cranky.

It probably is a device of the devil. I only have a cup very rarely and it makes me feel nuts. (which is probably a short trip for me)

I wasn't talking about the physiological effects of coffee (and my focus wasn't caffeine, because coffee and caffeine are two different things though coffee tends to have caffeine; the addiction isn't to just caffeine but to caffeine in coffee). One of the mistakes we make in approaching things and issues is looking at things one-dimensionally; but nothing is one-dimensional. God isn't one-dimensional, people aren't one-dimensional, physical things aren't one-dimensional; but we approach and talk about things as one-dimensional: he's a great guy; she's stuck up; they're weird; etc. It doesn't take any work at all to view things one-dimensionally, and we get used to it and wonder why we can't find cures to diseases, answers to questions, and solutions to problems. How much can one really see looking at one side of a thing that has at least four sides (as physical things naturally have at least that many sides or 'points of view'). I'm not talking about the physiological effects of caffeine on the human body but the psychological effects of coffee on Christians in 'Christian settings'.

I like to use the psychology fields (counselors, psychologists, therapists, etc.) because they tend to be the field that, maybe unwittingly, ties more than one facet of existence together in their work. However, even they leave out the actual psychology of things and focus along with others on the more popular three: the physical (psychiatry: medicine's effects on physiology which heals no one), the spiritual (pastoral counseling: Bible knowledge and 'spiritual warfare' to bring resolution), and mental (therapists: using cognitive skills or change of thinking or self-affirmation to bring resolution). The psychological factor (the human factor) is left out most of the time, because it is actually the most practical and doesn't leave room for talk without action (it's been left out so long that most people have forgotten it even exists though they live by it more than the other three every single day). So, I was sharing just the facet of coffee that is allied specifically with the self-centered nature in people and therefore is more striking or apparent when people gather to 'worship God' and then their self-centered nature surfaces (courtesy to coffee) and basically messes up everything. Coffee isn't the issue; the self-centered nature is. There are, however, certain things that trigger different things in each person, whether mentally or spiritually or etc. (For instance, people from other countries who come to America tend to suddenly become worse human beings; but America doesn't make people worse at all but simply gives them more 'food for the flesh'. With more to feed their flesh and their spirits or conscience starved to death, their flesh/self-centered nature naturally rises to take over everything including their Christianity and basic hatred of everyone (their new inability to love anyone) but themselves.) One of the things that is able to trigger the self-centered nature (which is unable to love others or care for the things of God) in Christians is coffee.
 
So increased adrenaline = fight or flight = fear = ..yeah fear is a device. Well, I'm a tea drinker.

Do you drink tea? Have you tried that rooibos tea? The red tea, it's yummy, has all the protective stuff as green but no caffeine.

I don't prefer tea unless I'm at a friend's and they serve it (the cold tea; I'm drinking peach tea now for instance) or I'm hanging out with someone who demands I try some tea (lol) or I'm at a restaurant where it's either tea or Mountain Dew or I'm homeless (which I've been before) and only have tea as an option or I'm in a desert thirsty and only have tea to drink. Outside of all those, I don't drink tea! Lol. I just prefer juice (peach preferably), soda sometimes, milk (shakes really), and water. I saw this book today about all the health benefits in coconut, coconut milk, coconut water, and coconut oil, so there's something that tastes good and is healthy. To each his or her own :)
 
Did you inhale?

Yes, I inhaled and didn't at all enjoy it. I never smoked it and actually thought, "Man, I gotta get more of this" which is why I never paid for it once. I always smoked it with other people.
 
When I was young, I went to a youth group in Houston. My parents did not goto the church, but one night while I was at youth and an elder came up to me and indicated that my parents needed to come to church so that they could tithe. I was rather taken back by this and didn't know what to say. I felt like a money collector had come up to me and asked me to pay my dues for this "country club" that I didn't seem to realize I was going through.

It didn't matter that I gave some money to the youth group for tithing. He wanted a tenth of what my parents had. It was a very surreal experience.

oh I also remember at another church where the youth pastor claimed that for every dollar we gave a soul would saved in their Africa missions. I was horrified that God's salvation was reduced to a single dollar being given.

Yes, the church has gone down a lot of wrong paths because of the love of money.
 
And I never understand why churches are all obsessed with having their own building. We have thousands of church buildings all over the US and most of them are never used besides Sunday and Wednesday.

It is very distressing to me to give money to a church if I know it is going to be put forth towards a building that is mostly going to sit there and collect dust.
 
When I was young, I went to a youth group in Houston. My parents did not goto the church, but one night while I was at youth and an elder came up to me and indicated that my parents needed to come to church so that they could tithe. I was rather taken back by this and didn't know what to say. I felt like a money collector had come up to me and asked me to pay my dues for this "country club" that I didn't seem to realize I was going through.

It didn't matter that I gave some money to the youth group for tithing. He wanted a tenth of what my parents had. It was a very surreal experience.

oh I also remember at another church where the youth pastor claimed that for every dollar we gave a soul would saved in their Africa missions. I was horrified that God's salvation was reduced to a single dollar being given.

Yes, the church has gone down a lot of wrong paths because of the love of money.

You said, "I felt like a money collector had come up to me and asked me to pay my dues for this 'country club' that I didn't seem to realize I was going through." It's hard to see things when we're standing right up beside them (when we're a part of it); it's like standing face to face with a large mural on the side of a building and thinking you can actually see 'the big picture'. You often have to step back for a good while before you see things as they really are.

As for the missionary thing, the missionary field can be big business; it's one of the biggest ploys to get money in Christendom: "Give us money for our missionary work." I'm not saying that money doesn't go to the missionary work, but what are the missionaries doing? Talk about 'gaining understanding', I once sat in on a service where homeless people were being fed but had to listen to a message first. This missionary got up and talked about his missionary activity and preached. I was so embarrassed for him and so frustrated (actually, I was a bit ticked off) that I felt like just weeping or screaming or both. Instead, I took out a notepad and began to write. Solomon said in Pro. 24 that when he went by a house and field overgrown with weeds, he stopped to consider and realized that the man was lazy; Solomon came to a conclusion from observing what he saw (which was that it doesn't take a long stint of lazing about to lose your wealth or to become poor). As I listened to this missionary, I considered why he was worth less than a balloon full of hot air. As I was writing what I was observing, I realized what is really happening often in the missionary fields: they send people who have nothing to offer but food, medicine, preaching, and maybe some shaky hope. These missionaries can't preach or bring Jesus to those fields, because they do not have Jesus themselves; they therefore 'go into all the world' without the good news (which is Jesus Himself) and fill people with a powerless and crap doctrine that may bring them to salvation but rarely ever saves them (in this life). I could hardly believe what I was seeing, but it made sense of a lot: Americans often prefer to 'go there' to preach and do good works, because we know that our neighbors (fellow Americans) are too smart to fall for our religious claims. Since our neighbors have money and the things we have but we don't have Jesus to give them, we take our money and other things that others don't have out to them in other nations and call our possessions and skills 'Jesus'. We can't give Jesus to our neighbors so we make ourselves feel good and justified by giving other things to others and calling it Christianity. It is insidious, manipulative, deceptive, and unfair. I learned all this when I considered why in the world that missionary was deader than petrified wood. I wanted to yell, "Get him off the stage!" But this is what we call 'reaching the nations' when we haven't even reached our own nation. I haven't yet met any ministry that I'm willing to give any money to; I will save my money for individuals who need it for now. Missionary work is to reach others for their sakes, not to travel, take vacations, see the world, and justify our lifestyles for our sakes.
 
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This is very interesting, the church my family goes to serves coffee at a little cafe after service.
So is it better to drink the coffee after worship than before?

I am now curious as to how the chemical composition of caffeine affects one's susceptibility to "feeling" the Holy spirit.
I imagine the person drinking the coffee has no realization that it is affecting them in any way. Only you (Allin) as an outside observer notice their change.
 
And I never understand why churches are all obsessed with having their own building. We have thousands of church buildings all over the US and most of them are never used besides Sunday and Wednesday.

It is very distressing to me to give money to a church if I know it is going to be put forth towards a building that is mostly going to sit there and collect dust.

Empire building. If you want to understand what's going on in the churches and why they are going on that way, all you have to do is look at how people generally live and then directly apply it to Christianity and church life. There is no difference between the two in general: you can't serve two masters, so if you say you're Christian, you are either like everyone else with religion thrown on the top or your version of Christianity is 24/7 oneness, wholeness, integrity, and solidarity (not dividing your life into categories). If I want a church, I'll buy one and have it sit there, use it once a week, collect money to make sure it's paid for, etc.; it may not make sense to anyone else, but it makes sense to me, because it's what I want. To better understand today's Christianity, you must necessarily look at it as secular people gathering once in a while to 'worship' (secular people meaning people whose cares and desires are basically the same as everyone else's). If you can't look at it that way, then all the inconsistencies and problems will never make sense to you.
 
This is very interesting, the church my family goes to serves coffee at a little cafe after service.
So is it better to drink the coffee after worship than before?

I am now curious as to how the chemical composition of caffeine affects one's susceptibility to "feeling" the Holy spirit.
I imagine the person drinking the coffee has no realization that it is affecting them in any way. Only you (Allin) as an outside observer notice their change.

I hardly drink any caffeine, but I still feel the presence of the Holy Spirit, Dose. ;)
 
Empire building. If you want to understand what's going on in the churches and why they are going on that way, all you have to do is look at how people generally live and then directly apply it to Christianity and church life. There is no difference between the two in general: you can't serve two masters, so if you say you're Christian, you are either like everyone else with religion thrown on the top or your version of Christianity is 24/7 oneness, wholeness, integrity, and solidarity (not dividing your life into categories). If I want a church, I'll buy one and have it sit there, use it once a week, collect money to make sure it's paid for, etc.; it may not make sense to anyone else, but it makes sense to me, because it's what I want. To better understand today's Christianity, you must necessarily look at it as secular people gathering once in a while to 'worship' (secular people meaning people whose cares and desires are basically the same as everyone else's). If you can't look at it that way, then all the inconsistencies and problems will never make sense to you.

Oh no, I do see it that way. That is why I have not attended church in many years. I gather with my family and we pray and seek God. I'm sure there are some good groups our there that truly desire to see and do the Will of God, I just have not encountered them in my local area.

I am just expressing my experiences with you.
 
This is very interesting, the church my family goes to serves coffee at a little cafe after service.
So is it better to drink the coffee after worship than before?

I am now curious as to how the chemical composition of caffeine affects one's susceptibility to "feeling" the Holy spirit.
I imagine the person drinking the coffee has no realization that it is affecting them in any way. Only you (Allin) as an outside observer notice their change.

You said, "The church my family goes to serves coffee at a little cafe after service. So is it better to drink the coffee after worship than before?" That brings up another issue regarding 'consuming things' as regards church that I can't go into now as it would take forever to expound on the topic. However, I will definitely touch on it here:

1. It is better to take the two or less hours of just one day a week and pretend to go into church solely to hear something about God without drinking coffee or shopping for something to eat or drink. It's only two hours or less out of 168 hours in the week; people can't wait on coffee? Right there simply is proof that many people go to church to feed their flesh and not their spirit: so many can't wait just two hours before returning to feeding their flesh; they have to do it right there in church. It's hard to find greater evidence if one was to look at the facts from the outside of the box and not the inside. It's almost criminal. It's better for people, if they must have coffee, to stop on the way to church and drink some then leave it in the car or/and have some after church away from the grounds-- that way, they can seem to actually be interested in the things of God for those short two or less hours they are at church.

2. I don't know if coffee's chemical composition has any effect on the person's ability to sense the Holy Spirit (though I do know that it isn't just caffeine that people are after but coffee: coffee is the taste of the beans plus the hot liquid (which is more calming and 'comforting' like warm rather than cold milk at night) and the caffeine, not just some cold caffeinated soda). I know that because coffee appeals to the natural desire for comfort (like when you sleep), it tends to compete with the Holy Spirit who already has enough competition from the flesh as it is without coffee coming in to say, "Spend time with yourself, not with the Lord", because that's what things that comfort the flesh do when Christians are trying to devote time to God. It's like trying to take ten minutes to pray before bed... but you're tired... and you've decided to pray laying face down on your pillow top mattress deep in the comforter (quilts): you probably will be asleep long before you're done with prayer. As far as noting these kinds of things, it's about inconsistencies: if someone tells you to expect one thing and you see another, you can say, "Meh", or you can inquire as to why the inconsistency-- why you aren't seeing what you were promised. No church promises you that you won't meet the Lord; rather, they tell you that He sort of lives there. If you don't experience Him, you can just say, "I'll just caress myself till I pass out" or you can say, "Excuse me... Where is He?" No, people who drink coffee don't realize any changes nor people who live most of the time (and prefer to live most of the time) self-centered. I only began to look and inquire because claims were made that were inconsistent with the actual results, effects, and evidence. People who are embroiled in the coffee/self-centered culture of Christianity have to step away for a while and look at it; the results will be... eye-opening.

3. As regards eating after church, it's pretty cool that you mentioned it, because several months ago, while going to one church, I decided to consider it. Every single time we left this church, everyone wanted to go eat. In fact, I was in the group that ate with the pastor my first day there. We went to some Mexican place (I don't really like Mexican) and just sort of ate; every feeling of the reality of God was gone. The pastor and church people were suddenly 'cool' and didn't want to have God sit beside them 'out in the real world'. But each Sunday and Wednesday, after any church event, we all dashed for the nearby Dairy Queen even if we weren't hungry (I mean, fridges at homes were packed, but people still insisted on eating out). When I saw this several times, I decided to inquire (uh-oh, lol) which means I decided to think about it and consider why. As I did, I learned (and that's actually how it works): eating out after church isn't tradition near as much as it is a lack of satisfaction. We are tri-partite beings: we can be physically, emotionally, or spiritually satisfied separately or together (and each can affect the other). (E.g. Men think about physical satisfaction more when it comes to relationships, and women think about emotional satisfaction more in the very same thing.) I may take part in something and come out emotionally satisfied but not physically satisfied; if I feel I must be physically satisfied, I will go get it somehow (food, etc.) so my cup called Satisfaction can be filled and I can 'rest' or stop looking for satisfaction. When people go to church, they often come away not satisfied spiritually or emotionally (especially spiritually which can govern the satisfaction of the others). Still needing to be satisfied and unable to find it in church or in spiritual things, they seek it in the place it is easiest to find or get: the physical; they go get something to eat and fill their stomachs. They come away physically (and sometimes emotionally) satisfied, therefore, their lack of spiritual (and sometimes emotional) satisfaction from church is put aside and seen as manageable: because they can satisfy other aspects of themselves, they rarely ever see it as a real problem or issue that 'church' doesn't satisfy them (spiritually which is able to govern the satisfaction of the others). When people fast, if they can find any spiritual food or satisfaction in the spirit, their need for food will vanish at least for a while, etc., and if people can feed their flesh and especially soul (desires, emotional needs) enough, they will have no need for spiritual food at all.

On that third one, I used to wait tables, and I heard that Christians who came in after church were the worst tippers and are the rudest type of clients as an overall group of people (believe me, spiritual satisfaction (as well as emotional) makes no one rude, angry, or prickly). I think probably everyone has heard this about Christians in restaurants by now. Next time you go to church or just on a Sunday, you should go to a restaurant, find some Christians, and talk to them. Ask them if they eat after service on Sundays and then ask them why. They won't know what you mean, but if you mention that it's a normal occurrence and make them begin to think beyond "It's just how we've always done it", you will probably make some enemies unless you meet the one in one thousand Christians stuck in a rut who really desires to get out of it and live.
 
And I never understand why churches are all obsessed with having their own building. We have thousands of church buildings all over the US and most of them are never used besides Sunday and Wednesday.

It is very distressing to me to give money to a church if I know it is going to be put forth towards a building that is mostly going to sit there and collect dust.
Ours gets used all week long. We built a gym/worship center so the high school could use it too
 
Oh no, I do see it that way. That is why I have not attended church in many years. I gather with my family and we pray and seek God. I'm sure there are some good groups our there that truly desire to see and do the Will of God, I just have not encountered them in my local area.

I am just expressing my experiences with you.

Sure. I hope I didn't sound like I was telling you what you don't already know.
 
Ours gets used all week long. We built a gym/worship center so the high school could use it too

A friend of mine said that church gatherings should use schools since school meets when church is out and church meets when school is out. It's a more practical model.
 
Ours gets used all week long. We built a gym/worship center so the high school could use it too

That makes much more sense to me.

it is such a contrast to the ancient church. Their living room, was their kitchen, their prayer closest, their place of worship, where they ate, etc. Today we erect buildings that just have one purpose and are only used a couple hours a week.

Heh, just the contrast surprises me.