Does water baptism save us

[posthuman]

I would like to learn just one thing from you:
Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
(Galatians 3:2)

we repent in our hearts, not in a bucket of water -- else how many times must we be baptized? if someone sins against us and repents, we must forgive him - even "70*7 times" -- do we only do this if he is also baptized 70*7 times?
do you remember when you first believed? did you go to be baptized, not believing, not having repented, not trusting Christ, waiting to do all these things in your heart under the water? or did you do these things first, and then seeking to obey the one you call your Salvation, also be baptized? why were any of us baptized, if we did not first believe? and anyone who believes and refuses to be baptized, has not believed at all.

we heard the gospel of the cross, not the gospel of the mikvah. this word being received by our ears, was understood by our minds and turned our hearts toward God in repentance - and then having believed, having this faith and first being loved by Him, we love Him, and obey His command to be baptized, professing Him before men and following after Him in the light.

Jesus must be lifted up, and in Him alone is salvation. if we love Him, we keep His commandments - but we love Him because He first loved us - first then, we are loved by Him. believing this we follow after Him and do what He asks us to do!

if i own a company, and i put out an ad for a worker, does someone who answers the ad become my employee the moment i hire him, or only after he has put on the uniform and starts to do the work? as soon as i say "you're hired" he says "i have a job!" if my secretary waits until after he's clocked in to put him on the payroll, where does he get the time card to clock in with?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you are going to depend on what Christ did you as an individual will never be saved. Christ saved the world/ mankiind from the bondage to death and sin. He did this so that man and God could be reunited in a union of love and obedience. It is why we were created and why Christ saved us from the fall.

1. He did not save the world. He offered salvation to the world. If he saved the world. The whole world would be alive in Christ. This is not true.
2. I can not rely on myself. man has been doing this for 6000 years now. And everyone has failed. why do you think Christ had to come?
3. You just proved a fact, Your not relying on God. your relying on self. Good luck with that!

Christ lived a perfect life, He is the example of a perfected human being. It is why He commands us to be perfect as He is perfect. He is our supreme model and example. We are not operating under the law of works, but the law of love. Love is greater than faith. I Cor 13:13.

He had to. Otherwise his sacrifice according to the law as an unblemished lamb would have been null and void. You seem to forget what the sacrifice according to the law represented. it is what allowed forgiveness of sin. Jesus died once.. For all time. to forgive sin, What more needs to be done? If his death did not suffice, we better start up the animal sacrifices again, As hebrews says, without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness.

Repentance gets us into Christ, and repentance/confession keeps us IN Christ. Sin separates man from God. When we begin to disobey, not follow continually, we are departing from Christ. If one hardens one's heart to sin, we are liable to be condemned because if we don't repent it will separate one from Christ. It is why He will chastise one, to let him know that sin is creeping in and can cause him to depart.

You still do not get it.

According to the law. You will NEVER be good enough, You can repent, confess all you want, you will still fall so short.

ps,

you ignored my whole post. why is that?

 

[posthuman]

What we have here is a contest of wills. These long threads demonstrate the stubborn nature of man. We yield not our will to each other. We must however yield our will to God.

maybe 4,194,304 angels fit on the head of a pin.

 

[saved1975]

You ask "If water baptism saves, Why did Jesus have to die??".


Heb 2:9, Jesus die for every man, so does that mean every man will be saved?

Jesus did die for the whole world, But we have to be born of the Spirit to be saved.
People have to receive salvation. AFTER Jesus died and rose again.
Jesus died Spiritually so we could live spiritually, But He had to die, So we can be made alive.

So, I will ask you again, If water baptism saves, Why did Jesus have to die??.


I notice you won't tell me how you got saved, Is that because your not sure that you are saved, Is it because you don't know you are saved, Or is it because you know I will prove that your not saved.


Not that I can judge you, The word of God is the judge.

 

[SeaBass]

Jesus did die for the whole world, But we have to be born of the Spirit to be saved.
People have to receive salvation. AFTER Jesus died and rose again.
Jesus died Spiritually so we could live spiritually, But He had to die, So we can be made alive.

So, I will ask you again, If water baptism saves, Why did Jesus have to die??.


I notice you won't tell me how you got saved, Is that because your not sure that you are saved, Is it because you don't know you are saved, Or is it because you know I will prove that your not saved.


Not that I can judge you, The word of God is the judge.

You said "But we have to be born of the Spirit to be saved"


Jesus said "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water AND of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

I see a big difference between what you say and what Jesus said.

 

[Cassian]

1. He did not save the world. He offered salvation to the world. If he saved the world. The whole world would be alive in Christ. This is not true.

so you disagree with John 4:42, I John 3:14. Christ gave life to te world. II Cor 5:18-19, Rom 5:18 gave life to all men. I Cor 15:12-22, Col 1:20. We were all dead (mortal) through ADam, all are alive in Christ. It is always telling that when one does not actually understand what Christ did, (that we could not) they invaribly want Christ to do for us what we were created to do. Therein lies your confusion.

2. I can not rely on myself. man has been doing this for 6000 years now. And everyone has failed. why do you think Christ had to come?

He didn't need to come so you could work with him in this creation. That is what Adam was doing before he fell. Christ came to reverse the fall, so we all as individuals could do what Adam was doing, for which all men were created to do.

3. You just proved a fact, Your not relying on God. your relying on self. Good luck with that!

NOt relying upon self at all. It is a synergistic, mutual, cooperative working out of our salvation WITH God not by ourselves.

He had to. Otherwise his sacrifice according to the law as an unblemished lamb would have been null and void. You seem to forget what the sacrifice according to the law represented. it is what allowed forgiveness of sin. Jesus died once.. For all time. to forgive sin, What more needs to be done? If his death did not suffice, we better start up the animal sacrifices again, As hebrews says, without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness.

but the sacrifice was only for this life. It makes it possible for man to be IN Christ. That when we sin, we can have forgivenness. The fact we can and do sin is why it is so easy for a believer to fall away. We are to perfect ourselves, increase the virtues and by so doing decrease the vices in our lives. We cannot be molded into His Image if we let sin dwell in us.
By the way, this is a secondary work of Christ. If it was not for His resurrection, giving man/world an eternal existence again, sin becomes moot. Man's greatest problem was death. Loss of life, eternal existence.

You still do not get it.

According to the law. You will NEVER be good enough, You can repent, confess all you want, you will still fall so short.

that is because you are confused. All this mention of law, works of the law, is about man saving himself from the fall. That is what Christ did. That part is moot now, since Christ has come and redeemed us from death and sin. Now it is all about why we were created, to be in union with Him to work with him to perfect us as human beings.

ps,

you ignored my whole post. why is that?

None of them are even applicable to the topic which I told you. Many of them dealt with what Christ did for us, not our response to His Work. The latter half all deal with our relationship through faith. Your false assumption is that we have been SAVED, past tense, at the moment of belief. Nothing is scripture even hints at that. We take possession of our salvation, but the inheritance is dependent on completing the obligations of the Covenant.
We possess it but do not have it absolutely. God does not give out Pearls to swine who return to the mud, but to those who keep clean.

 

[posthuman]

You said "But we have to be born of the Spirit to be saved"


Jesus said "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water AND of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

I see a big difference between what you say and what Jesus said.

that's only because although Nicodemus didn't understand Jesus to be talking about baptism, but physical birth, you persist in jamming water baptism into that verse, even though it doesn't fit at all.
Nicodemus didn't ask "how can a man climb back into the baptismal when he is old?"

 

[Jackson123]

To say water baptism save us is like to say all who wear Brown scapular will save. even the greatest sinner.

It covertly encourage wickedness. If you want to save and rich in the same time, if you have opportunity to cheat or corrupt do it. As long as you wear scapular or water baptized you save anyway.

If some body want to deceive you, they not do it in a way that you know. If they say let commit a sin. than you will say no.

But if they give you a way in which sin but still going to heaven. than it will stimulate you to do so.

Smart move.


www.tldm.org/directives/d80.htm‎

SCAPULAR OF LIFE
"My children, you must all unite in prayer, link for link, using the sacramentals given to you from Heaven, the beads of prayer, your Rosary, the Scapular of life; for I promise you: All who wear the Brown Scapular shall never feel the fires of hell. Even the greatest of sinner will be converted and saved if he will wear the Brown Scapular when he passes over the veil, when he leaves, My child and My children, his body at the moment you call upon earth death. But I say unto you as your Mother, for My Son and all Heaven, there is no death! For you continue to live with full consciousness when you leave your body. Then, My child and My children, what will be your reaction if you have not used every means possible to store graces for a quick entrance into the Kingdom of your God?" - Our Lady of the Roses, August 14, 1979

 

[eternally-gratefull]

so you disagree with John 4:42, I John 3:14. Christ gave life to te world. II Cor 5:18-19, Rom 5:18 gave life to all men. I Cor 15:12-22, Col 1:20. We were all dead (mortal) through ADam, all are alive in Christ. It is always telling that when one does not actually understand what Christ did, (that we could not) they invaribly want Christ to do for us what we were created to do. Therein lies your confusion.
He didn't need to come so you could work with him in this creation. That is what Adam was doing before he fell. Christ came to reverse the fall, so we all as individuals could do what Adam was doing, for which all men were created to do.

No, I do not disagree at all. I disagree with your faulty interpretation.

In Christ shall all be made alive.

Now tell me, If we are dead because of sin, How can we be made alive unless the penalty of sin is removed, And if the penalty is removed, Then how are we not justified?

As paul said, "And you he made alive in CHrist who were dead in trespasses and sin"

The "You" he is talking to is not the whole world. but tone ones who heard the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation, and having believed, were sealed with the spirit.

NOt relying upon self at all. It is a synergistic, mutual, cooperative working out of our salvation WITH God not by ourselves.

Yes you are. God did the work. Your adding to his work. and relying on your ability to do what you claim he demands you do.

but the sacrifice was only for this life. It makes it possible for man to be IN Christ. That when we sin, we can have forgivenness. The fact we can and do sin is why it is so easy for a believer to fall away. We are to perfect ourselves, increase the virtues and by so doing decrease the vices in our lives. We cannot be molded into His Image if we let sin dwell in us.

Again, You refuse to see the problem. You can NEVER live up to the just requirement of the law. Thus according to your own logic. No one could ever be saved.

By the way, this is a secondary work of Christ. If it was not for His resurrection, giving man/world an eternal existence again, sin becomes moot. Man's greatest problem was death. Loss of life, eternal existence.

Secondary? Wow dude, The whole of the OT was fulfilled in the death of Christ, The whole of the NT is based on the death of Christ. It is the PRIMARY.

Jesus had to take care of spiritual death before he could take care of physical death, It was accomplished the moment he said, "it is finished"

He died 2 deaths on the cross. Not one.. "My God My God why have you forsaken me?" WHy? Because your sin, my sin, was placed on his body, And it separated him from God. He died spiritually. That was our payment for sin, Not his physical death.

that is because you are confused. All this mention of law, works of the law, is about man saving himself from the fall. That is what Christ did. That part is moot now, since Christ has come and redeemed us from death and sin. Now it is all about why we were created, to be in union with Him to work with him to perfect us as human beings.

You still do not get it, According to the law. You and I are both still doomed, We can not fulfill the law (be sinless) not even for one day, if you think you can, You do not know the law at all.

None of them are even applicable to the topic which I told you. Many of them dealt with what Christ did for us, not our response to His Work. The latter half all deal with our relationship through faith. Your false assumption is that we have been SAVED, past tense, at the moment of belief. Nothing is scripture even hints at that. We take possession of our salvation, but the inheritance is dependent on completing the obligations of the Covenant.
We possess it but do not have it absolutely. God does not give out Pearls to swine who return to the mud, but to those who keep clean.

lol..

Eph 1 - 3 says otherwise.

As does romans,

But yuo do not want to listen, You still want to trust in self and Not God.

Good luck with that.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

You said "But we have to be born of the Spirit to be saved"


Jesus said "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water AND of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

I see a big difference between what you say and what Jesus said.

I've said this once but it must have been ignored. . . passed over. . . . or just refused!!!!

"born of water and of the Spirit" is the figure of speech hendiadys - two words are used but only one thing is meant. Here the one thing is water but Jesus emphasises [with a figure of speech] the fact that this water is not to be material as it was under the law, but spiritual; i.e. spiritual water. So if you have "spiritual water" in your baptismal; go for it. You can be baptized in water 50 times a day but it will not give birth to spirit; the new creation, the new man within you. I will stick with being baptized with 'living water' which is the holy Spirit.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Hey, If you see a rock, Call it a rock. If you see a pharisee. Call it a pharisee. Pharisees were big into religious ceremony and tradition. What makes you think you are any different than they were?

because I use the Law of Liberty, not the mosaic law... and I am still trying to figure out what law you use, it is not in any bible I have, must be man made, some baptist manual, some confession of faith, some made up thing???

 

[Jabberjaw]

I've said this once but it must have been ignored. . . passed over. . . . or just refused!!!!

"born of water and of the Spirit" is the figure of speech hendiadys - two words are used but only one thing is meant. Here the one thing is water but Jesus emphasises [with a figure of speech] the fact that this water is not to be material as it was under the law, but spiritual; i.e. spiritual water. So if you have "spiritual water" in your baptismal; go for it. You can be baptized in water 50 times a day but it will not give birth to spirit; the new creation, the new man within you. I will stick with being baptized with 'living water' which is the holy Spirit.

The hendiadys from "born of water" and "born of Spirit" is "baptism"

 

[Jabberjaw]

that's only because although Nicodemus didn't understand Jesus to be talking about baptism, but physical birth, you persist in jamming water baptism into that verse, even though it doesn't fit at all.
Nicodemus didn't ask "how can a man climb back into the baptismal when he is old?"

Your correct, Nicodemus took born again to be another physical birth, just like you and others on here that try to compare "born of water" to physical birth, you're making the exact same mistake Nicodemus made with a little twist... being half wrong is still wrong.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Baptism was the "Figure", Symbol of salvation, Not Noah and the flood.
The Greek says about water baptism,
"Water baptism is an expression, of salvation, Not the medium for salvation, The symbol of salvation, Not the cause of salvation".


Peter knew water baptism doesn't save, He knew by his own experience, Because he was baptised in water, But not saved.
He told the people in Acts 2: 38, To repent for the remission of sins, THEN you can be baptised.... That's the way the Greek texts says it.

Don't tell me what the Greek says, show me what the Greek says... prove your statement.

 

[Jabberjaw]

The, "One baptism", was the subject that we were discussing, So there was no point in putting that in.


One does not get into the body through water baptism, 1 Cor 12: 13, says it's by the spiritual rebirth,
By one SPIRIT we are baptised into the body, NOT by ONE baptism.

How did you get saved, And how did you get baptised in water?. Please tell me.

As for Rom 6: 3-6, Baptism is just the symbol of our ALREADY death, burial and resurrection with Christ.
One has to die to self, be buried with Christ and raised up with Christ before they can be baptised.


Eph 2: 8--9 says NO WORKS will save us, NOT the Jewish laws.

Titus doesn't say anything about water baptism, It says the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost.
The Greek word for, "Washing", in Titus 3: 5, is "Loutron", Not "Baptisma" [Baptism].

3067 loutron loo-tron' from 3068; a bath, i.e. (figuratively), baptism:--washing. see GREEK for 3068

 

[mailmandan]

3067 loutron loo-tron' from 3068; a bath, i.e. (figuratively), baptism:--washing. see GREEK for 3068

"figuratively" - of the nature of or involving a figure of speech, especially a metaphor; metaphorical and not literal.

The word "washing" in the Strong's Greek Expanded Exhaustive Concordance with Vine's Number 3067 - (Loutron) "a bath, a laver" is used metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing, Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5, of the "washing of regeneration."

 

[Cassian]

No, I do not disagree at all. I disagree with your faulty interpretation.

In Christ shall all be made alive.

Now tell me, If we are dead because of sin, How can we be made alive unless the penalty of sin is removed, And if the penalty is removed, Then how are we not justified?

As paul said, "And you he made alive in CHrist who were dead in trespasses and sin"

The "You" he is talking to is not the whole world. but tone ones who heard the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation, and having believed, were sealed with the spirit.

believers are part of mankind I would presume. The ONLY reason you can even believe is that Christ gave life to the world. Christ saved you and every other human being from death and sin. More precisely the bondage to death and sin. This is the Work of Christ, what He accomplished by His Incarnation and resurrection. Obviously you do not understand scripture because I Cor 15:12-22 tells you exactly what the summation of vs 22 is equating. Also Rom 5:8.
Your blinders are so thick that you cannot see the details. Your man made theory so overclouds scripture you will never understand. Theologically, you have effectively denied the Incarnation of Christ.

All men were condemned to death. We sin because we are mortal. Thus our mortal nature is what is causing us to sin. I Cor 15:56 states that very clearly as well.
Your statement exhibits a good understanding of the false theory of Original Sin as developed by Augustine but adoped by both initial reformers, Luther and Calvin. Most protestants have adopted it in one form or another. A doctrine which you just summarized.

Yes you are. God did the work. Your adding to his work. and relying on your ability to do what you claim he demands you do.

Christ did all the work of saving mankind from death and sin. However, the reason He did so, was to enable both He and you to reenter into a relationship again. Same relationship Adam was enjoying before he sinned. That relationship requires the same work. The works were created for you to do. You an either do them or not do them. Your salvation is determined on your faithfulness. He is NOT going to do them for you, for the same reason He did not do them for Adam. He created YOU TO DO THEM.

Again, You refuse to see the problem. You can NEVER live up to the just requirement of the law. Thus according to your own logic. No one could ever be saved.

I don't have to. Christ lived up to the law perfectly and saved me from death and sin. I and ever human being has been saved from death and sin. Sin is now your responsibility. No one can blame Adam an longer. The world was redeemed from Adam, if you will. You are on a totally different page, which is why your theology, your view is confusing you.

Secondary? Wow dude, The whole of the OT was fulfilled in the death of Christ, The whole of the NT is based on the death of Christ. It is the PRIMARY.

death was necessary for both works that He accomplished. Death was necessary since blood is required to atone for sin. Blood gives life. Spiritual life which is why the OT sacrifices are the archtype. However man's primary problem was death. Man was condemned to death as a result of Adam's sin. Man lost life, an eternal existance. Christ overcame death by assuming our mortal human nature and raising it to life, an eternal physical existence. Now, man and God can reenter into a spiritual, eternal relationship. Without life, everything is mute which is why I Cor 15:17 states that unless Christ is risen and all the dead are raised, ones faith is in vain.
Which is why the works of the law would be futile anyway. Man could have live a perfect life under the law, but just keeping the law does not grant life. Only the creator of Life could be the one to restore life to the world.

Jesus had to take care of spiritual death before he could take care of physical death, It was accomplished the moment he said, "it is finished"

It is actually the other way around. I Cor 15:45 states this as well. In fact it is the opposite of Adam, sin(spiritual death) condemnation (physical death) Christ was raised (physically) so that the spiritual union could be continued.

He died 2 deaths on the cross. Not one.. "My God My God why have you forsaken me?" WHy? Because your sin, my sin, was placed on his body, And it separated him from God. He died spiritually. That was our payment for sin, Not his physical death.

that satisfied the spiritual, which would be moot if not for His resurrection. He did two things for man. Provided a sacrifice for sin (makes forgiveness possible) life (eternal existence.) so we can be united with Christ for an eternity.

You still do not get it, According to the law. You and I are both still doomed, We can not fulfill the law (be sinless) not even for one day, if you think you can, You do not know the law at all.

the law has been fulfilled by Christ. You seem to forget that. But faith has also established the law, Rom 3:31. But it is different because the foundation is love through faith. But it is perfection that He commands. We can strive to do it, none will accomplish it, but that is not an excuse not to do anything or something half hearted, or surely not at all, based on salvation at initial faith, rather than at the end.

lol..

Eph 1 - 3 says otherwise.

As does romans,

But yuo do not want to listen, You still want to trust in self and Not God.

Good luck with that.

The problem is that your two texts do not support OSAS, nor salvation upon initial faith. That Gift it is speaking about is the Gift given to all men which is summed up in vs 5, Believers being a subgroup, is that we will be saved individually through faith.

You still have a very long way to go in understanding salvation. You have a view that employs several false theories developed by men and do not align with scripture.

I can assure you that your view will not change the meaning of scripture. It has remained the same for 2000 years. The latest your view becomes visible as incorporated into a faith system is with the reformers. Hardly the Gospel from the beginning. I would check your understanding of the Incarnation as well. It has always been a teaching of scripture from the beginning. Your statement is a theological denial of the Incarnation.

 

[posthuman]

Your correct, Nicodemus took born again to be another physical birth, just like you and others on here that try to compare "born of water" to physical birth, you're making the exact same mistake Nicodemus made with a little twist... being half wrong is still wrong.

in which part of Jesus' answer to Nicodemus does He explain that He is talking about water baptism?

Nicodemus answered and said unto him,

How can these things be?
​

Jesus answered and said unto him,

Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
​

(John 3:9-21)

no one is saying "do not be baptized."
this is very simple:
what do you place your faith in? Jesus, or baptism with water?
what do you believe in: Jesus, or water baptism?
what did Jesus teach Nicodemus was necessary for salvation: believing in Him, or being baptized?

if we believe on Him, we obediently confess our sin, faithfully believing that He is able and does forgive us; we repent and submit to be baptized into His death and resurrection. without that we believe, baptism is nothing and into nothing.

He said "go and proclaim the kingdom of God."
does proclaiming the kingdom of God save us? of course not. but if we are heir to His salvation, we proclaim it!

see how great the Fathers love for us is? while we were yet sinners, dead in our flesh, He calls to us and says "be my sons and my daughters!" i do not serve Him in order to become grateful to Him, or so that i may love Him, but because i love Him, because He first loved me, because i am thankful, i gladly serve Him!

how He confounds the wisdom of the wise!
He says

"baptism doesn't save you;​

I have saved you: be baptized!"​

i will boast in the Lord, not in my obedience.

​

 

[Cassian]

I've said this once but it must have been ignored. . . passed over. . . . or just refused!!!!

"born of water and of the Spirit" is the figure of speech hendiadys - two words are used but only one thing is meant. Here the one thing is water but Jesus emphasises [with a figure of speech] the fact that this water is not to be material as it was under the law, but spiritual; i.e. spiritual water. So if you have "spiritual water" in your baptismal; go for it. You can be baptized in water 50 times a day but it will not give birth to spirit; the new creation, the new man within you. I will stick with being baptized with 'living water' which is the holy Spirit.

Jesus was baptised for two reasons. One to fulfill a prophecy, but the most important to sanctify water but the material world which He is about to redeem from death. It is why water has life. Water in our fonts have been sanctified for that use. That is part of the continuation of the consecration of bishops and priests in sharing that authority with Christ.
John3:5 is the sine quo non definition of baptism in scripture. It signifies entrance into Christ. Which is why it is required for salvation. Unless you can find a substitute in scripture for entrance into Christ, or that one does not need to be IN Christ in order to be saved.
Which is why every single mystery/sacrament is salvific. Protestants have adopted the Zwingle meaning of all sacraments, which is a Gnostic understanding. An understanding also that does not recognize the Christ redeemed the material world as well as mankind, since both suffered the condemnation of death through Adam.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

The hendiadys from "born of water" and "born of Spirit" is "baptism"

I got my definition from E.W. Bullinger's - Figures of Speech used in the Bible - Where did you get yours? You don't understand the meaning of "born" either. It means to "give birth" - That which is born of the flesh is flesh - You were born from parents, who are flesh therefore you were born flesh. God is Spirit and gives birth to the spirit that is born within you when you believe in the only begotten Son of God.