Does water baptism save us

[peacefulbeliever]

Jesus was baptised for two reasons. One to fulfill a prophecy, but the most important to sanctify water but the material world which He is about to redeem from death. It is why water has life. Water in our fonts have been sanctified for that use. That is part of the continuation of the consecration of bishops and priests in sharing that authority with Christ.
John3:5 is the sine quo non definition of baptism in scripture. It signifies entrance into Christ. Which is why it is required for salvation. Unless you can find a substitute in scripture for entrance into Christ, or that one does not need to be IN Christ in order to be saved.
Which is why every single mystery/sacrament is salvific. Protestants have adopted the Zwingle meaning of all sacraments, which is a Gnostic understanding. An understanding also that does not recognize the Christ redeemed the material world as well as mankind, since both suffered the condemnation of death through Adam.

Jesus was baptized to fulfill the Law. How did he "sanctify water by his baptism"? Jesus was also baptized in holy Spirit - that is what gave him the power to endure temptation and live a sinless life. It 'signifies' - yes that is what it does and what it is - a 'symbol'. When you were born again; you were washed in living water via the holy Spirit. The spirit was born within you as a new creature, the new man - Christ in you the hope of glory. Hallelujah! Just as God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself - Now it is God in Christ in us and we have that ministry of reconciliation in Christ's stead!!!!

Christ was redeemed for the whole world, Christ paid the ransom for all - but the only ones that receive the redemption and ransom are those that believe that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.

BTW - I don't know what "Zwingle" means and probably don't want to know.

 

[notuptome]

Jesus was baptised for two reasons. One to fulfill a prophecy, but the most important to sanctify water but the material world which He is about to redeem from death. It is why water has life. Water in our fonts have been sanctified for that use. That is part of the continuation of the consecration of bishops and priests in sharing that authority with Christ.
John3:5 is the sine quo non definition of baptism in scripture. It signifies entrance into Christ. Which is why it is required for salvation. Unless you can find a substitute in scripture for entrance into Christ, or that one does not need to be IN Christ in order to be saved.
Which is why every single mystery/sacrament is salvific. Protestants have adopted the Zwingle meaning of all sacraments, which is a Gnostic understanding. An understanding also that does not recognize the Christ redeemed the material world as well as mankind, since both suffered the condemnation of death through Adam.

Doctrinal miasma. Christ was not here to redeem or sanctify water and none of the sacraments are salvitic. Christ did not redeem the material world. the material world is going to be consumed in the fervent heat and re-created by God without sin.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Cassian]

Jesus was baptized to fulfill the Law. How did he "sanctify water by his baptism"? Jesus was also baptized in holy Spirit - that is what gave him the power to endure temptation and live a sinless life. It 'signifies' - yes that is what it does and what it is - a 'symbol'. When you were born again; you were washed in living water via the holy Spirit. The spirit was born within you as a new creature, the new man - Christ in you the hope of glory. Hallelujah! Just as God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself - Now it is God in Christ in us and we have that ministry of reconciliation in Christ's stead!!!!

so why is it so difficult to understand that Christ sanctified water to be used in baptism. It is how the Holy Spirit works. Every single mystery/sacrament has a phyical element to it. After all we are physical beings, not spiritual.

Christ was redeemed for the whole world, Christ paid the ransom for all - but the only ones that receive the redemption and ransom are those that believe that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.

quite contrary. Every single human being was given the Gift of salvation from death and sin. Christ overcame the fall for everyone. What you are speaking about is receiving eternal life which is through faith. Two entirely different things.

BTW - I don't know what "Zwingle" means and probably don't want to know.

I actually spelled it incorrectly, Zwingli. He was one of the Original Reformers who disagreed with all sacraments being salvific. He took the pagan Gnostic idea that all material is evil and God does not operate through evil material. Thus the sacrament,. the only two that some Protestants accept are simply ceremonies that have no salvific significance.
Maybe you should study and understand some of the things you are being taught that are not scriptual.

 

[posthuman]

"all the material world is impure" = gnostic

but

"physical water was formerly cursed but has been sanctified by Jesus being baptized in it" = not gnostic



"lol" i say
(not a tie-fighter but chuckling at irony)

 

[Cassian]

Doctrinal miasma. Christ was not here to redeem or sanctify water and none of the sacraments are salvitic. Christ did not redeem the material world. the material world is going to be consumed in the fervent heat and re-created by God without sin.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

so you say because you don't understand scripture again. Adam and the material world was condemned to death. Decay, corruption and death was the lot of both. Christ became man, took on our mortal human, material nature, just so He could raise it and give life to mankind and the world. You should check Rom 3:23-25, II Cor 5:18-19, Col 1:20 all explain quite clearly that Christ was reconciling the world back to God. He overcame the judgement of death against the world by which Satan held both the world and man captive. II Tim 1:10, Heb 2:14, Heb 2:9, Rom 5:18.
The world has been recreated as well as man. It is but to be consummated in the last day. God is not going to destroy either the world or man. The world will be refined, but not destroyed.

So much you don't know about scripture. Every time you comment you show your ignorance of scripture. You have a good handle on whatever it is that you believe but it is not what all Christians have believed from the beginning.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

so why is it so difficult to understand that Christ sanctified water to be used in baptism. It is how the Holy Spirit works. Every single mystery/sacrament has a phyical element to it. After all we are physical beings, not spiritual.

How did Christ sanctify the water in your baptismal? No - the holy Spirit comes and dwells within a person through the new birth.

quite contrary. Every single human being was given the Gift of salvation from death and sin. Christ overcame the fall for everyone. What you are speaking about is receiving eternal life which is through faith. Two entirely different things.

I am saved by the work of Christ - Isn't salvation receiving eternal life? Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ. For by grace are you saved through faith; it is the gift of God - I am saved by God's grace because of my faith in Jesus Christ - it is a gift and has to be accepted. How do I accept it? By confessing Jesus as Lord and believing God raised him from the dead (Romans 10:9,10)

I actually spelled it incorrectly, Zwingli. He was one of the Original Reformers who disagreed with all sacraments being salvific. He took the pagan Gnostic idea that all material is evil and God does not operate through evil material. Thus the sacrament,. the only two that some Protestants accept are simply ceremonies that have no salvific significance.
Maybe you should study and understand some of the things you are being taught that are not scriptual.

I don't believe that all material is evil - don't believe I even said that or anything close to that. Maybe you should study and understand some of the things you are being taught that are not scriptual.

 

[Cassian]

How did Christ sanctify the water in your baptismal? No - the holy Spirit comes and dwells within a person through the new birth.

which is water baptism by the Holy Spirit. John 3:5. Rom 6:3-4, and other places as well, besides the Great commission where He commanded the disciples to baptise which is with water. Has so been understood from the beginning. There has never been even a false theory that some man came forth with to impose his idea over that of the Holy Spirit.

I am saved by the work of Christ - Isn't salvation receiving eternal life? Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ. For by grace are you saved through faith; it is the gift of God - I am saved by God's grace because of my faith in Jesus Christ - it is a gift and has to be accepted. How do I accept it? By confessing Jesus as Lord and believing God raised him from the dead (Romans 10:9,10)

The Gift of salvation is given to all men. It is salvation from the fall, from the bondage to death and sin. It can be summed up in two words, sacrifice and life. Man has nothing to to with this Gift, cannot change it, cannot effect it in any way. Does not even need to accept it.
However, in order to be able to enter into Christ, one must believe that Christ is the Savior of the world. We beleive in Christ and that faith justifies us and when we enter we are given a promise of eternal life with Christ, IF we meet the conditions of faith.

[quite] I don't believe that all material is evil - don't believe I even said that or anything close to that. Maybe you should study and understand some of the things you are being taught that are not scriptual.

You stated that the flesh sins, but the spirit of man does not. It is the person, man that sins. Not one or the other. That is the same as the gnostics believed. Man does not have two natures that are independent of each other. When we sin it is the person that sins or does not sin. It is influenced by the flesh to sin. Whether we do either is by our will.

When you can point something out to me that is NOT scriptural that I have said, so far, then you might have a beginning point. But so far that has not happened.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

because I use the Law of Liberty, not the mosaic law... and I am still trying to figure out what law you use, it is not in any bible I have, must be man made, some baptist manual, some confession of faith, some made up thing???

In Grace, there is no law.

 

[Butch5]

Baptism was the "Figure", Symbol of salvation, Not Noah and the flood.
The Greek says about water baptism,
"Water baptism is an expression, of salvation, Not the medium for salvation, The symbol of salvation, Not the cause of salvation".



Peter knew water baptism doesn't save, He knew by his own experience, Because he was baptised in water, But not saved.
He told the people in Acts 2: 38, To repent for the remission of sins, THEN you can be baptised.... That's the way the Greek texts says it.

I'm sorry dude but Peter said, Noah was saved through water. It's the like figure whereby baptism does now save us. His statement is pretty clear. I don't see how you're turning it around claiming that the Greek says so.

 

[Butch5]

Here's a quote from Ignatius a student of the apostle John.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Chap. II.—Be Subject to the Bishop, Etc.
Be ye subject to the bishop as to the Lord, for “he watches for your souls, as one that shall give account to God.” (Heb. 13:17) Wherefore also, ye appear to me to live not after the manner of men, but according to Jesus Christ, who died for us, in order that, by believing in His death, ye may by baptism be made partakers of His resurrection. It is therefore necessary, whatsoever things ye do, to do nothing without the bishop. And be ye subject also to the presbytery, as to the apostles of Jesus Christ, who is our hope, in whom, if we live, we shall be found in Him. It behoves you also, in every way, to please the deacons, who are [ministers] of the mysteries of Christ Jesus; for they are not ministers of meat and drink, but servants of the Church of God. They are bound, therefore, to avoid all grounds of accusation [against them], as they would a burning fire. Let them, then, prove themselves to be such.

 

[Butch5]

In Grace, there is no law.

Are you sure? It's always been by grace. Abraham, Isaac, David, and so on are all saved by grace. When God foretold of the New Covenant He said this,

[SUP]31[/SUP] Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
[SUP]32[/SUP] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
[SUP]33[/SUP] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(Jer 31:31-33 KJV)

 

[Alligator]

because I use the Law of Liberty, not the mosaic law... and I am still trying to figure out what law you use, it is not in any bible I have, must be man made, some baptist manual, some confession of faith, some made up thing???

In Grace, there is no law.

Wrong again,

To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.
1 Corinthians 9:20-22 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 9 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

 

[Jabberjaw]

I got my definition from E.W. Bullinger's - Figures of Speech used in the Bible - Where did you get yours? You don't understand the meaning of "born" either. It means to "give birth" - That which is born of the flesh is flesh - You were born from parents, who are flesh therefore you were born flesh. God is Spirit and gives birth to the spirit that is born within you when you believe in the only begotten Son of God.

I got mine from the dictionary, Bullinger didn't create the word nor did he define it.

John 3:3 (NKJV) Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

"born again", Nicodemus did the same thing as you, equated this to the natural child birth, Jesus makes it clear to him what "born again" is :

John 3:5 (NKJV) Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Unless one is "born of water and the Spirit" notice the conjunctive "and" that connects the two?

Jesus didn't say "unless one is born of Spirit" he said "water and Spirit", now if you try and say that water is natural child birth, you make the same mistake that Nicodemus made, you make the Holy Spirit out to be long winded adding something that everyone already has, and you have Jesus telling everyone that is born of a mother they are half way to salvation, do you see how silly that is?

Born of water and of Spirit is "water baptism" the "of Spirit" means it is as Peter said in 1 Peter 3:20-21 "not the removal of filth from the flesh" it means it is a Spiritual representation of the Death, burial and resurrection of Christ, you are buried with Him, putting you in contact with the cleansing blood of Christ, note the bible uses two metaphoric ways of "washing away our sins" :

 Acts 22:16 (NKJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'

[HR][/HR] Revelation 1:5 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

Now either their are two ways to wash our sins away, or these both mean the same thing, John 3:5 says the later...

 

[Kerry]

Just go to a bar and tell them all they have do is to get baptized and they can continue on as they are. Man you will get 80% to go along with that.

 

[Jabberjaw]

"figuratively" - of the nature of or involving a figure of speech, especially a metaphor; metaphorical and not literal.

The word "washing" in the Strong's Greek Expanded Exhaustive Concordance with Vine's Number 3067 - (Loutron) "a bath, a laver" is used metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing, Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5, of the "washing of regeneration."

The baptism is a figurative washing, another way of saying a spiritual washing, it is not as Peter says in 1 Pet 3:20-21, not the removal of the filth of the flesh...

 

[Jabberjaw]

Just go to a bar and tell them all they have do is to get baptized and they can continue on as they are. Man you will get 80% to go along with that.

I am sure those at a bar would much rather here you tell them they don't have to do anything, I bet they would go along with that right along with all the rest of the sinners....

 

[Nautilus]

Since somehow going to a bar is sinning? I guess the concept of moderation is beyond some people.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Since somehow going to a bar is sinning? I guess the concept of moderation is beyond some people.

It is sinning in moderation, but that's for another thread

 

[Kerry]

Just go to a bar and tell them all they have do is to get baptized and they can continue on as they are. Man you will get 80% to go along with that.

and 70% will say that they have already been baptized. So their good with God.

 

[saved1975]

You said "But we have to be born of the Spirit to be saved"


Jesus said "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water AND of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

I see a big difference between what you say and what Jesus said.

Please note, In Jn 3: 5, Jesus DIDN'T say we must be baptised.
Jesus mentions the rebirth 5 times in Jn 3: 3--8, And water [NOT Baptism] ONCE.

According to the Greek, The "Water" in Jn 3: 5, Is "The word", And the Bible proves it.
Jn 15: 3. Eph 5: 26. James 1: 18. 1 Pet 1: 22--23.