Does water baptism save us

[notuptome]

Jn 3:5---------------spirit++++++++++water>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1cor12:13----------spirit++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>in the body
Tts3:5-----------Holy Spirit++++++washing of reg>>>>>saved


Do these verses harmonize or not?

Not the way you present them.

------------------

I made a reference to Heb 9:22 that says '..

.and without shedding of blood is no remission". Those under the OT law did not have the shed blood of Christ to totally,completely remit all their sins...."For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.But in those sacrifices there isa remembrance again made of sins every year." Heb 10:1-3.

So Adam, Cain did not have what we today have in the shed blood of Christ.

They did have Gods grace and they believed God so righteousness was imputed to them. Same thing today. God does not impute sin but God does impute Christ's righteousness to us by grace. 2 Cor 5:21

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SeaBass]

Not the way you present them.
They did have Gods grace and they believed God so righteousness was imputed to them. Same thing today. God does not impute sin but God does impute Christ's righteousness to us by grace. 2 Cor 5:21

For the cause of Christ
Roger

All three verses are exactly the same, they all speak of one birth with two elements; spirit and water. NONE of the 3 remotely speak of a physical birth.


The OT characters did not have the shed blood of Christ that completely remits sins, so they did not have water baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins and that is why you will not see Adam or Cain water baptized in the name of the Lord for remission of sins.

 

[Cobus]

2 Pet 1:21 has nothing to do with baptism, but tells us that men of God were inspired by the HG in what they spoke,

Ok Seabass looks like we are advancing on the subject at hand. We both agree prophets were MOVED by the Holy Spirit to say GOD'S WORDS... Like John the Baptist also one of God's prophets...

John said I baptize you with water.,... (water baptism) but HE that comes AFTER me will baptize with fire and Spirit (Spirit baptism). John (prophet speaking God's WORDS) said Jesus will baptize with Spirit and fire... NO WATER! Not a drop! John did water, God does Spirit. See John made very clear distinction with TWO BAPTISMS... One water by men (meaning and achieving NOTHING AFTER John finished. The waterbaptism STOPPED with John. After John baptized Jesus, Jesus was taking over the reighns so to speak.

God said it in a very clear voice.... This is my SON in whom I am well pleased... LISTEN TO HIM... I do, and He said He will baptize with Spirit, and that is ALL He baptize in. NEVER WATER, NOT EVEN ONCE. So the people that baptize with water who's example do they follow? John or Jesus? And the Apostles? They Baptized with Holy Ghost when they laid hands on people. Or is it GOD INTHEM that baptize?

Do you see why ONLY Apostles baptized with Spirit? ONLY APOSTLES... and when was Simon the suarcerer saved? Was he saved by the water baptism? What about the rest of the city of Samaria.. They were baptized with water by Philip and yet the SPIRIT did not fall on one of them YET... Acts 8. But when the Apostles Peter and John came they baptized them with Holy Ghost... Read it in Acts 8 and you figure out when the City was SAVED, not cleansed SAVED and ONE WITH GOD.

Clean people are not saved, only ones in GOD is saved. Born of God is saved not water baptized people. Water does NOTHING for God or His people. Spirit of God is the SEED in the people not WATER. 1 John 3:9...


Look when we belong to God.... And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

God commands us to REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED... Repent is faith in God to KEEP his commands not transgress them, and then HE WILL BAPTIZE US WITH THE SPIRIT, to ABIDE IN HIM... Wow what an awesome God.

 

[SeaBass]

well John the Baptist is not actually speaking to us, but the baptism of water doesn't give you the Holy Spirit, nor does it save you...

Right, John was not speaking to us today. We cannot tell by the immediate context of Mt 3:11 who either "you" refer to. Looking to the fulfillment of John's words in Acts 1:1-5, Jesus was speaking to His apostles. Jesus refers to Johns words of Mt 3:11 in Act 1:5 and we can see that the apostles are the "you" that was promised baptism with the Holy Spirit. No one today was given this promise.


Water baptism saves:
Mk 16;16
Jn 3:5
Acts 2:38
Rom 6:3-5
1 Cor 1:12,13
1 Cor 12:13
Gal 3:27
Eph 5:26
Col 2:12-14
1 Pet 1:22
1 Pet 3:21
Titus 3:5
etc, etc

 

[Jabberjaw]

well John the Baptist is not actually speaking to us, but the baptism of water doesn't give you the Holy Spirit, nor does it save you...

The problem is you have not proved that, you only have an opinion.

 

[SeaBass]

Please note, Water in Jn 3:5, Is likened to the word, As I have shown you.
Please note, In Jn 3: 3, it says "Water", NOT Baptism. False religions say it means baptism.
If it was water baptism Jesus would have said.

The Bible is its own best commentary on Jn 3:5

The is nothing in the context of Jn 3:5 that says water means anything other than water.

The bible is not a false religion:

Jn 3:5-----------spirit++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1cor12;13-------spirit++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5---------Holy Ghost+++++washing of reg.>>>>>saved


"born of water" = "baptized" = "washing of regeneration". Three different terms referring to the exact same thing: water baptism.

 

[Cassian]

Man does not have two natures that are independent of each other. hummm . . . I believe scripture even makes references to two natures - and that these two natures war one against the other.

There is an 'old nature' - That which is born of the flesh is flesh. John 3:6a - Concerning the 'Flesh' we are told it 'cannot please God.' (Romans 8:8); it 'profiteth nothing:' (John 6:63); there is in it 'no good thing:' (Rom. 7:18). or the 'Natural Man' - The 'natural man' receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he get to know them because they are spiritually discerned' (1 Co. 2:14). This portion of scripture stands in correspondence with verse 8 which tells us that 'none of the princes of this world knew the wisdom of God', i.e. the mystery - for it was "hidden" in God (Eph. 3:9) and even now it is "revealed" (1 Cor. 2:10), the natural man cannot get to know it because it is only discerned by the spirit, or the new nature within us, created by the holy Spirit. The 'old nature is in contrast to the 'new nature' - That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6b -born or begotten of the holy Spirit. This new nature is called the 'Divine Nature' (2 Peter 1:4). This new nature [spirit] does not change the old nature [flesh] - that's why we are told to renew our minds - to cast down imaginations - to keep our body in subjection.

The 'Old Man' - The 'old man' "is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts" (Eph. 4:22). These desires or lusts are in all things contrary to God, contrary to His Spirit, and His Word; and to the new nature, the spirit. In contrast to the 'old man' is the 'new man' - Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creatrue: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God.. (2 Co. 5:17,18a) - i.e. in that which was created in us; Spirit. We are to 'put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness'. (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10) and this is also done by the renewing of our minds - being not conformed to this world but being transformed by the renewing of our minds (Romans 12)

The 'Outward Man' - that which is seen and that which actually perishes (2 Cor. 4:16) and this is 'day by day'. As long as we are in the flesh we die daily. In contrast to the 'outward man' is the 'inward man' which is renewed day by day (Rom. 7:22; 2 Co. 4:16; Eph. 3:16) Those that are born again are constantly being nourished and established day by day with grace and strength by the holy Spirit; so that Christ dwells in the heart by faith and we are filled with all the fulness of God (Eph. 5:19). The inward man delights in the law of God (Rom. 7:22) while the outward man is 'not subject to the law of God' (Rom. 8:7)

The 'Heart', i.e. the natural heart which is "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked" (Jer. 17:9) "Out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies." (Matt. 15:19) The 'Carnal Mind' - The 'carnal mind' means 'the mind of the flesh' (Rom. 8:7); this mind of the flesh is 'enmity against God.' 'Not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be', and 'cannot please God'. In contrast to this we have 'the mind'; i.e. in the new nature. It is used in contrast with "flesh" (as "spirit" is), because it refers to that which is inward and invisible. This "mind" serves the law of God (Rom. 7:25) and delights in it (5:22). "the law of the mind" is put for 'the law of God' in Rom. 7:23.

'Sin' - One thing that needs to be distinguished is sin and sins. Sin is the root - sins are the fruit; i.e. the outcome of the old nature. From Romans 5:12 to 8:39 it is "Sin" that is dealt with: the old nature. Although the sinner is justified in Christ, he still feels the working of the old nature, and experiences the conflict between that and the new nature. (Romans 7) It would do anyone good to look up all the verses and maybe do a word study on the differences between our old nature and our new nature - how our walk in the spirit is an actual battle and that the flesh and the spirit are contrary the one to the other. Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other; so that ye cannot do the things ye would. We need to renew our minds daily so that we can be led by the spirit, the new creature, the new man created in us via the new birth - given by the holy Spirit - washed in spiritual water; i.e. living water given by our Lord Jesus Christ through faith in him.

Needless to say you are far from what Paul is describing in scripture. You have clearly adopted the dualistic definitions of man that originated with Augustine. For a correct understanding of Paul check this explanation here

ORIGINAL SIN ACCORDING TO ST. PAUL​

 

[notuptome]

All three verses are exactly the same, they all speak of one birth with two elements; spirit and water. NONE of the 3 remotely speak of a physical birth.


The OT characters did not have the shed blood of Christ that completely remits sins, so they did not have water baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins and that is why you will not see Adam or Cain water baptized in the name of the Lord for remission of sins.

when faced with contradictory evidence ignore it and return to the talking points. Jay Carney better watch out you are perfect for his job.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SeaBass]

Ok Seabass looks like we are advancing on the subject at hand. We both agree prophets were MOVED by the Holy Spirit to say GOD'S WORDS... Like John the Baptist also one of God's prophets...

John said I baptize you with water.,... (water baptism) but HE that comes AFTER me will baptize with fire and Spirit (Spirit baptism). John (prophet speaking God's WORDS) said Jesus will baptize with Spirit and fire... NO WATER! Not a drop! John did water, God does Spirit. See John made very clear distinction with TWO BAPTISMS... One water by men (meaning and achieving NOTHING AFTER John finished. The waterbaptism STOPPED with John. After John baptized Jesus, Jesus was taking over the reighns so to speak.

God said it in a very clear voice.... This is my SON in whom I am well pleased... LISTEN TO HIM... I do, and He said He will baptize with Spirit, and that is ALL He baptize in. NEVER WATER, NOT EVEN ONCE. So the people that baptize with water who's example do they follow? John or Jesus? And the Apostles? They Baptized with Holy Ghost when they laid hands on people. Or is it GOD INTHEM that baptize?

Do you see why ONLY Apostles baptized with Spirit? ONLY APOSTLES... and when was Simon the suarcerer saved? Was he saved by the water baptism? What about the rest of the city of Samaria.. They were baptized with water by Philip and yet the SPIRIT did not fall on one of them YET... Acts 8. But when the Apostles Peter and John came they baptized them with Holy Ghost... Read it in Acts 8 and you figure out when the City was SAVED, not cleansed SAVED and ONE WITH GOD.

Clean people are not saved, only ones in GOD is saved. Born of God is saved not water baptized people. Water does NOTHING for God or His people. Spirit of God is the SEED in the people not WATER. 1 John 3:9...


Look when we belong to God.... And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

God commands us to REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED... Repent is faith in God to KEEP his commands not transgress them, and then HE WILL BAPTIZE US WITH THE SPIRIT, to ABIDE IN HIM... Wow what an awesome God.

Mt 3:11 has been discussed a few times already. John was not speaking to anyone today for neither pronoun "you" in Mt 3:11 refers to anyone today.

 

[notuptome]

Right, John was not speaking to us today. We cannot tell by the immediate context of Mt 3:11 who either "you" refer to. Looking to the fulfillment of John's words in Acts 1:1-5, Jesus was speaking to His apostles. Jesus refers to Johns words of Mt 3:11 in Act 1:5 and we can see that the apostles are the "you" that was promised baptism with the Holy Spirit. No one today was given this promise.


Water baptism saves:
Mk 16;16
Jn 3:5
Acts 2:38
Rom 6:3-5
1 Cor 1:12,13
1 Cor 12:13
Gal 3:27
Eph 5:26
Col 2:12-14
1 Pet 1:22
1 Pet 3:21
Titus 3:5
etc, etc

There is no virtue in false teachings no matter how ardently they are taught. Except your righteousness exceed that of the Pharisees ye shall likewise perish.

By grace are you saved not by water baptism.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SeaBass]

when faced with contradictory evidence ignore it and return to the talking points. Jay Carney better watch out you are perfect for his job.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

No one has shown any evidence that Jn 3:5; 1 COr 12:13; Titus 3:5 contradict each other or that "born of water". "baptized" and "washing of regeneration" do not refer to water baptism but all really refer to the "physical birth".

 

[SeaBass]

There is no virtue in false teachings no matter how ardently they are taught. Except your righteousness exceed that of the Pharisees ye shall likewise perish.

By grace are you saved not by water baptism.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

In two straight posts you accuse me of false teaching and nothing more. You have no biblical proof to back up what you say is the real issue here.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Those three verses all speak of the new birth and all 100% harmonize, in total, complete agreement with each other. They are only "horrific" to those that deny what they say and try to change what they are saying creating disharmony, contradictions among verses.


As been explained many times, Christ's blood washes away sins, Rev 1:5. Christ shed that blood in His death, Jn 19:34. Baptism is what puts one into Christ's death where His blood was shed, Rom 6:3-5. "Faith only" does nothing, it's dead, worthless, useless, cannot save, does not put one in Christ's death.

Christ had not shed His blood at the time of Adam, so there was no such thing as water baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins (Heb 9:22) for those under OT laws. Adam, the thief on the cross are not examples of NT salvation.

What you fail to understand is it is not WATER baptism which does those things, But the actual baptism of God himself.

Even John understood this, He will baptize with the HS and fire. Who do you think Jesus was going to baptise? If your not baptized by him, your not washed, if your not washed, your still dead in your sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Baptism is a Command of God! Read Matthew3v13-17. After Repentance of sins. And the reason for baptism is to receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost ( Spirit) to lead you into believing the Truth of Word of God . Also Baptism is only made in HIS NAME!
Lord Jesus Christ. Acts2v38.

The greek does not support this, Ths gift of the spirit is given only because of repentance. Those who were baptized did so because they had received remission of sin, as obedience to the command of Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The awesome significance of water baptism is that it symbolizes the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and our identification with Him in them. The Scriptures refer to Jesus as being the last Adam (1 Corinthians 15;21-22, 45). Jesus, in His sacrifice for us, represented us. When a person receives Jesus as Lord, he identifies fully with what happened to Jesus (Romans 6:4-6). Water baptism is a physical act that should indelibly mark the mind of the person being baptized with the reality of his union with Jesus Christ.
Water baptism also gives the believer the opportunity to openly testify to others of his born-again experience. It serves as an outward sign and testimony of an inward grace. The believer has been crucified with Christ, buried with Him and raised together with Him to walk in newness of life (Galatians 2:20; Romans 6:4).

The problem with this is that the baptisms spoken of in romans 6 and 1 cor 12 and galations have absolutely nothing to do with the physical act of being immersed in water. No water is mentioned in those verses. The things we are told we are baptised into is the blood, the death and burial and the body of Christ. God literally immerses us into those things, These are spiritual acts performed by God which is represented or symbolized by the act of water baptism. but they are niether dependent on, nor do the occure only on the fact that one obeys the command of that water baptism.

 

[SeaBass]

What you fail to understand is it is not WATER baptism which does those things, But the actual baptism of God himself.

Even John understood this, He will baptize with the HS and fire. Who do you think Jesus was going to baptise? If your not baptized by him, your not washed, if your not washed, your still dead in your sin.

But you do not understand that God "does those things", such as cut away the body of sin, only when one is buried in baptism. Col 2:12-14.


Mt 3:11 does not apply to us today.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jn 3:5---------------spirit++++++++++water>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1cor12:13----------spirit++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>in the body
Tts3:5-----------Holy Spirit++++++washing of reg>>>>>saved


Do these verses harmonize or not?

Not in your interpretation.

1 John 3 is how to be born again, Believe in the name of the son sent, and you will have eternal life. No mention of water or baptism. Only faith is required to be born again

2. 1 cor 12 is an act performed by God himself. Not man, and not in water. We are literally baptized INTO CHRIST (Christ being the item we are immersed into) not in water.

3. Titus 3: 5 lets us know who is the one who washed us. The HS, Not in water, Not in some baptism, But in him applying the blood of Christ to us.

 

[SeaBass]

The greek does not support this, Ths gift of the spirit is given only because of repentance. Those who were baptized did so because they had received remission of sin, as obedience to the command of Christ.

You are re-writing the verse and the Greek does not support you changing verses to force them to fit your bias.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

All three verses are exactly the same, they all speak of one birth with two elements; spirit and water. NONE of the 3 remotely speak of a physical birth.


The OT characters did not have the shed blood of Christ that completely remits sins, so they did not have water baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins and that is why you will not see Adam or Cain water baptized in the name of the Lord for remission of sins.

So we are required to work for salvation and they, who had a whole list of works to do (over 600 last time I counted) which had nothing to do with theirs, they were saved by faith alone.

Wow.

 

[SeaBass]

The problem with this is that the baptisms spoken of in romans 6 and 1 cor 12 and galations have absolutely nothing to do with the physical act of being immersed in water. No water is mentioned in those verses. The things we are told we are baptised into is the blood, the death and burial and the body of Christ. God literally immerses us into those things, These are spiritual acts performed by God which is represented or symbolized by the act of water baptism. but they are niether dependent on, nor do the occure only on the fact that one obeys the command of that water baptism.

Rom 6; 1 Cor 12; Gal 3 all are the one human administered water baptism of Christ's great commission. Baptizo in those verses refer to a literal immersion and none of those context support a figurative use of baptizo.