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Titus 3:5 (NKJV) not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
because you refuse to see it does not mean its not there, does not make it go away...
You make the same err as Nicodemus, yet you reject Christ teaching, you get it too, but must reject it, or reject your man made doctrine.
because you refuse to see it does not mean its not there, does not make it go away...
You make the same err as Nicodemus, yet you reject Christ teaching, you get it too, but must reject it, or reject your man made doctrine.
I'm not trying to make anything go away. Water does not regenerate. Only the Holy Spirit regenerates. I know this is difficult for you but this passage is a compound sentence. Regeneration and renewing are together not separate they are both the operation of the Holy Spirit not water.
Just plain silly or inane or vacuous take your choice.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Just plain silly or inane or vacuous take your choice.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I need to copy and paste your post in the "Salvation Not Possible Without Works" thread... you finally agree that works are required for righteousness,
It does not destroy Gods theory (its in the bible, its not my theory), nobody said the HS doesn't do the washing, you don't think man can put themselves "into Christ" do you? it is there in the watery grave that the Spirit puts you in contact with the cleansing blood, making both these one in the same :
Acts 22:16 (NKJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'
Revelation 1:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
It does not destroy Gods theory (its in the bible, its not my theory), nobody said the HS doesn't do the washing, you don't think man can put themselves "into Christ" do you? it is there in the watery grave that the Spirit puts you in contact with the cleansing blood, making both these one in the same :
Acts 22:16 (NKJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'
Revelation 1:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
A
Hey Cobus, what about the eunuch in Chapter 8 of Acts. He said he went down into the water. Are you going to deny that too? Why don't you use a little a little common sense and study the context on those cases where it specifically doesn't say water. Never mind, you have already made up your mind so why study?
In the first place, if being healed from leprosy is an illustration of salvation, we have another case that reveals one can be saved without any water. Read it in (Luke 5:12-15). No water is found here. Secondly, Naaman was not even a believer until after dipping in Jordan. He said "NOW" (after being healed) I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," (2 Kings 5:15) and vowed to worship only Him (vs. 17). If we follow this "example," we will have to baptize unbelievers! Naaman received cleansing from leprosy (not eternal life) after he dipped in the Jordan 7 times, but no sins were literally remitted for Naaman in Jordan. Likewise, water baptism does not literally remit sins. The NT uses the experience of Naaman as illustrative of the SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD, not of salvation through baptism. Naaman was a heathen, not a believer, and did not know God until the miracle occurred. The purpose of the miracle had nothing to do with salvation through baptism, but was to demonstrate "there is a prophet in Israel" (2 Kings 5:8) and that "there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," as Naaman found out (2 Kings 5:15).
E
Sorry,
A sign of the messiah does not prove baptismal regeneration. God always started new things with many signs, Look at the signs he did when he started with Israel.
And how this proves that we are NOT washed and regenerated by the literal act of the HS is beyond me.
You people love to pick out verses, But refuse to take scripture as a whole.
A
it looks like you completely missed my point. It was not an illustration of salvation but one of obedience. God didn't do what Naaman wanted until he submitted to dipping in the Jordan seven times. And, of course there is no water baptism in Luke chapter 5 since this was still under the Old Testament law and the command for baptism had not yet been given since Christ had not yet died on the cross.
So you are saying that water baptism was not required for salvation under the old law but it is after the new law? In Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3, is this baptism of repentance "FOR" (in order to obtain) the remission of sins or "FOR" (in reference to/in regards to) the remission of sins? Keep in mind that Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3 took place BEFORE the new law while still under the old law. Under the new law, in Acts 2:38, we read - Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and under the old law, in Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3, we read - John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
I'm hearing the same message under the old law. So in Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3 (under the old law), was this baptism of repentance "FOR" (in order to obtain) the remission of sins or "FOR" (in reference to; in regards to) the remission of sins? In Matthew 3:11, we read: I baptize you with water "FOR" repentance. If translated "in order to obtain", the verse does not make sense. I baptize you with water "FOR" (in order to obtain) repentance? or I baptize you with water "FOR" (in reference to/in regards to) repentance?
I'm hearing the same message under the old law. So in Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3 (under the old law), was this baptism of repentance "FOR" (in order to obtain) the remission of sins or "FOR" (in reference to; in regards to) the remission of sins? In Matthew 3:11, we read: I baptize you with water "FOR" repentance. If translated "in order to obtain", the verse does not make sense. I baptize you with water "FOR" (in order to obtain) repentance? or I baptize you with water "FOR" (in reference to/in regards to) repentance?
Peter did say that baptism saves us, it's clearly stated. You keep saying the Greek says but you haven't shown where the Greek says.
I've already posted a quote from Ignatius who was taught by the apostle John and was appointed bishop at Antioch by the apostle Peter. He said that it is through baptism that one partakes of the resurrection. It's hard to imagine that Peter would appoint someone as bishop if their theology was wrong.
I've already posted a quote from Ignatius who was taught by the apostle John and was appointed bishop at Antioch by the apostle Peter. He said that it is through baptism that one partakes of the resurrection. It's hard to imagine that Peter would appoint someone as bishop if their theology was wrong.
I know water is the "type" because in the Levitical law it was water [material water] that covered one's sins - which carried through the gospels. John comes along in Mark 1:8 says 'I baptize in water [same baptism used in Levitical law] - but he [Jesus] shall baptize in holy Spirit', i.e. 'living water'. Now there are the two ways in which one can be baptised - water OR Spirit.
The verses and context of John 3 are talking about being born again NOT baptism; just read the context - it's about birth and it even explains it in v6 - That which is born of the flesh is flesh - every person born - that which is born of the Spirit is spirit - only those born again of God's Spirit. But you refuse to listen or just see what is written and believe it just as it is written adding nothing to it.
It has been proven MANY times just refused to be seen. Just as there are those steeped in tradition here - the apostles also were steeped in tradition. I think Peter got it when he saw that the household of Cornelius received the holy Spirit before being baptized in water. . . . And as I began to speak, the holy Spirit fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit. . . . This is speculation on my part and I readily admit that but maybe if he had remembered the word of the Lord - he may not have baptized in water knowing that these were already baptized via the holy Spirit -
so maybe you can answer me - being born again of the Spirit - we are born of God - we are filled with His Spirit - God dwells in us via His Spirit - that is the new creature, the new man, - that is the being born again of Divine Nature. Now my question is - Can water do this? This is how you answered what I asked????? If you believe all those things can be, do you believe they can be bestowed upon a sinner? yet I have shown with scripture that water baptism is what puts us "into Christ" Romans 6:3, putting us in contact with the blood of Christ washing away our sins Rev 1:5 . . . . What does that have to do with anything I asked? I asked a simple question just need a simple answer.
The ONLY thing that puts us "in Christ" is being born again of the Spirit and the ONLY way that happens is by confessing Jesus as Lord believing God raised him from the dead - at that moment in time - a person is born again of the Spirit; filled with holy Spirit, baptized in the Spirit - God in Christ now dwell within the believer. Water baptism represents the death and resurrection of our Lord - it is a "type".
The verses and context of John 3 are talking about being born again NOT baptism; just read the context - it's about birth and it even explains it in v6 - That which is born of the flesh is flesh - every person born - that which is born of the Spirit is spirit - only those born again of God's Spirit. But you refuse to listen or just see what is written and believe it just as it is written adding nothing to it.
It has been proven MANY times just refused to be seen. Just as there are those steeped in tradition here - the apostles also were steeped in tradition. I think Peter got it when he saw that the household of Cornelius received the holy Spirit before being baptized in water. . . . And as I began to speak, the holy Spirit fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit. . . . This is speculation on my part and I readily admit that but maybe if he had remembered the word of the Lord - he may not have baptized in water knowing that these were already baptized via the holy Spirit -
so maybe you can answer me - being born again of the Spirit - we are born of God - we are filled with His Spirit - God dwells in us via His Spirit - that is the new creature, the new man, - that is the being born again of Divine Nature. Now my question is - Can water do this? This is how you answered what I asked????? If you believe all those things can be, do you believe they can be bestowed upon a sinner? yet I have shown with scripture that water baptism is what puts us "into Christ" Romans 6:3, putting us in contact with the blood of Christ washing away our sins Rev 1:5 . . . . What does that have to do with anything I asked? I asked a simple question just need a simple answer.
The ONLY thing that puts us "in Christ" is being born again of the Spirit and the ONLY way that happens is by confessing Jesus as Lord believing God raised him from the dead - at that moment in time - a person is born again of the Spirit; filled with holy Spirit, baptized in the Spirit - God in Christ now dwell within the believer. Water baptism represents the death and resurrection of our Lord - it is a "type".
Acts 18:24-26 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquilla and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded the way of God more perfectly.
Sorta makes you wonder what Aquilla and Priscilla taught him - He was already instructed in the way of the Lord; he was fervent in 'spiritual things/matters'; he spake boldly in the synagogue and taught diligently the things of the Lord but he only knew the baptism of John [water] - why even mention that? Aquilla and Priscilla took him unto them and expounded the way of God more perfectly - baptism of the Spirit. [and yes that is speculation again on my part but it sure fits!]
Sorta makes you wonder what Aquilla and Priscilla taught him - He was already instructed in the way of the Lord; he was fervent in 'spiritual things/matters'; he spake boldly in the synagogue and taught diligently the things of the Lord but he only knew the baptism of John [water] - why even mention that? Aquilla and Priscilla took him unto them and expounded the way of God more perfectly - baptism of the Spirit. [and yes that is speculation again on my part but it sure fits!]
yup I agree.
I am going to repeat this verse: Matt 28:19
[h=2]Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:[/h]
This is the teaching directly from Jesus. It doesn't mention water at all. Water is just a symbol
Baptism mean immersions or dyed.
My church (Mennonite) do it in sprinkle, Catholic also sprinkle. It is OK because just a symbol
If one said it for salvation must follow exactly what in the bible, than Catholic or Mennonite baptism is not save because not immersions.
That way I believe symbol is just a symbol not save us.
Unless we immersed in the name of Father Son and Holy Ghost, we not save.
John 15:7
If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
This is true baptism, when I in you and you in Me. We immersed in Him, Baptized by Holy spirit, symbolized with water.
I am going to repeat this verse: Matt 28:19
[h=2]Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:[/h]
This is the teaching directly from Jesus. It doesn't mention water at all. Water is just a symbol
Baptism mean immersions or dyed.
My church (Mennonite) do it in sprinkle, Catholic also sprinkle. It is OK because just a symbol
If one said it for salvation must follow exactly what in the bible, than Catholic or Mennonite baptism is not save because not immersions.
That way I believe symbol is just a symbol not save us.
Unless we immersed in the name of Father Son and Holy Ghost, we not save.
John 15:7
If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
This is true baptism, when I in you and you in Me. We immersed in Him, Baptized by Holy spirit, symbolized with water.