-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Now questioning that you might believe it is all sufficient for you, but it was also sufficient for every single human being on this earth as well. The salvation you are referencing, the Work of Christ was a Gift given to the world, not just some potential believers.
What this discussion is about is the reason that Christ saved the world from death and sin. It purpose was for man to be reunited with God so that man might be perfected, and attain eternal life with Christ. Salvation and eternal life are two separate and different things.
The difference between you and I is that you have not gotten beyond the same type of faith that Satan has, who also believes in Christ. Why shouldn't he, he was the victim of Christ victory over his power of death and sin. He was defeated for you, because you could not save yourself from death and sin.
But once again, you are denying why man was even created. What was Adam doing before he fell. Well, a hint, same thing you are supposed to be doing as a believer. Working with God to perfect you as a human being to attain to eternal life with Christ. Adam fell, so can you. Man has no guarantee that he can maintain his faithfulness. It is a daily, constant work with nothing taken for granted.
What this discussion is about is the reason that Christ saved the world from death and sin. It purpose was for man to be reunited with God so that man might be perfected, and attain eternal life with Christ. Salvation and eternal life are two separate and different things.
The difference between you and I is that you have not gotten beyond the same type of faith that Satan has, who also believes in Christ. Why shouldn't he, he was the victim of Christ victory over his power of death and sin. He was defeated for you, because you could not save yourself from death and sin.
But once again, you are denying why man was even created. What was Adam doing before he fell. Well, a hint, same thing you are supposed to be doing as a believer. Working with God to perfect you as a human being to attain to eternal life with Christ. Adam fell, so can you. Man has no guarantee that he can maintain his faithfulness. It is a daily, constant work with nothing taken for granted.
No straw man argument here. Do you deny that you teach salvation is the result of water baptism and other works?
I believe that we are saved by grace through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9). Faith in Christ as the all sufficient means of our salvation. Faith in Christ and water baptism is not faith in Christ. Faith in Christ and works is not faith in Christ.
I believe that we are saved by grace through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9). Faith in Christ as the all sufficient means of our salvation. Faith in Christ and water baptism is not faith in Christ. Faith in Christ and works is not faith in Christ.
Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient to save every human being on this earth, but not every human being receives the gift of eternal life through faith. A gift must be received and is not automatically given to those who refuse to receive it through faith (Ephesians 2:8).
Perfected then saved through faith or saved through faith then perfected? You put the cart before the horse.
If we have salvation do we have eternal life? If we have eternal life do we have salvation? Can we have one without the other?
You are dead wrong here. In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons "believe" that there is "one God" (and so does Satan) but where in this passage does it say that demons believe/trust in Jesus Christ for salvation? The faith of demons is only "mental assent." Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. The word "believe" can describe "mere mental assent" (James 2:19) or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation (Acts 16:31). Saving belief is more than just an "intellectual acknowledgment" to the existence and historical facts about Christ. Saving belief/faith completely trusts in Christ's finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation (Romans 1:16; 3:24). Simply believing "mental assent" that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened" and "trusting solely in what happened to receive eternal" life are two different things.
Who said that I am not working "out" my salvation? (which is not the same thing as working for your salvation). You seem to think that you are daily constantly working for your salvation. What are you trusting in to save you? Christ's finished work of redemption or your works? If you were standing at the gates of Heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into Heaven, what would be your exact answer?
Perfected then saved through faith or saved through faith then perfected? You put the cart before the horse.
If we have salvation do we have eternal life? If we have eternal life do we have salvation? Can we have one without the other?
You are dead wrong here. In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons "believe" that there is "one God" (and so does Satan) but where in this passage does it say that demons believe/trust in Jesus Christ for salvation? The faith of demons is only "mental assent." Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. The word "believe" can describe "mere mental assent" (James 2:19) or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation (Acts 16:31). Saving belief is more than just an "intellectual acknowledgment" to the existence and historical facts about Christ. Saving belief/faith completely trusts in Christ's finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation (Romans 1:16; 3:24). Simply believing "mental assent" that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened" and "trusting solely in what happened to receive eternal" life are two different things.
Who said that I am not working "out" my salvation? (which is not the same thing as working for your salvation). You seem to think that you are daily constantly working for your salvation. What are you trusting in to save you? Christ's finished work of redemption or your works? If you were standing at the gates of Heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into Heaven, what would be your exact answer?
then your faith is no better than Satan.
Faith IN Christ means that you will follow, obey His commands. In order to even be IN Christ, (faith only does not save,) one must be baptised with water AND the Spirit. It is a synonomous event. The Holy Spirit uses water to signify entrance into His Body. Nothing complicated but when man places false suppositions upon scripture, it becomes twisted, and generally null and void.
Faith IN Christ means that you will follow, obey His commands. In order to even be IN Christ, (faith only does not save,) one must be baptised with water AND the Spirit. It is a synonomous event. The Holy Spirit uses water to signify entrance into His Body. Nothing complicated but when man places false suppositions upon scripture, it becomes twisted, and generally null and void.
The fact that salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works is not hard to understand, it's just hard for these people to ACCEPT. It's tragic that human pride will not allow these people to come to Christ! Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to take hold of Christ through FAITH.
A huge problem that I see with their understanding of faith is that they seem to believe that ALL faith is the same "except for the lack of works." They cannot seem to grasp a DEEPER faith which trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation. This explains why they have so much faith in water and works.
A huge problem that I see with their understanding of faith is that they seem to believe that ALL faith is the same "except for the lack of works." They cannot seem to grasp a DEEPER faith which trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation. This explains why they have so much faith in water and works.
strawman again. Mischaracterization of scripture and what some one states. I'm not working for my salvation as defined by scripture. You are misunderstanding the word, salvation, as used in scripture. Christ saved us, completely with no help from man in any shape or form from death and sin. Defeated Satan. It was a Gift given to the world.
But working to attain eternal life which is the purpose of the Gift, a Gift whereby God can again be reunited with man in an eternal union. But just as Adam was created good, not perfect, he was required to work with God in this creation to perfect himself as a human being. So do you. It is NOT granted to you just because you believe. It will be granted IF we do not fall like Adam. Perfection and maturity is accomplished through love and obedience.
What can I say, you don't understand scripture or salvation.
But working to attain eternal life which is the purpose of the Gift, a Gift whereby God can again be reunited with man in an eternal union. But just as Adam was created good, not perfect, he was required to work with God in this creation to perfect himself as a human being. So do you. It is NOT granted to you just because you believe. It will be granted IF we do not fall like Adam. Perfection and maturity is accomplished through love and obedience.
What can I say, you don't understand scripture or salvation.
Strawmen again. Do any of you actually understand anything that is stated. You don't need to believe it, but actually understand what is being stated. In every post, the main point you keep repeating is a strawman arguement. Nothing you stated here even resembles what I have stated, and worse, not what scripture states either.
praise be to God who sent His Son for our salvation!
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
(1 Thessalonians 5:9-10)
the God of Abraham, and Jacob, and of the whole earth!
salvation is in no other hand!
The LORD is good unto them that wait for him, to the soul that seeketh him.
It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.
It is good for a man that he bear the yoke in his youth.
(Lamentations 3:25-27)
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
(1 Thessalonians 5:9-10)
the God of Abraham, and Jacob, and of the whole earth!
salvation is in no other hand!
The LORD is good unto them that wait for him, to the soul that seeketh him.
It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.
It is good for a man that he bear the yoke in his youth.
(Lamentations 3:25-27)
My faith trusts in Christ's finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of my salvation. Satan's does not. You cannot seem to grasp this DEEPER faith that trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation. This explains why you have so much faith in water and works, which is no better than the faith of the Pharisees.
Faith in Christ means that you are trusting in Him for salvation. Following/obeying His commands after you have been saved through faith is works. Have you perfectly obeyed ALL of Christ's commands? Are you sinless and perfect? Is that what you are trusting in for salvation?
What James means by "faith only" is an empty profession of faith. The lack of works demonstrate a dead faith. Faith that trusts only in Christ for salvation saves and is not barren of works because it's a living faith (Ephesians 2:5-10) not a dead faith. Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. You make the mistake of making faith AND works BOTH the root of salvation. That is salvation by works.
John 3:5 mentions nothing about baptism. John 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive.. There is your synonymous event. John 4:10 - "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." John 4:14 -but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. Jesus connects living water with eternal life, yet you don't even mention living water. Why is that? Paul connects Spirit baptism in 1 Corinthians 12:13 with drink into one Spirit. Are you seeing the connection yet?
That statement is the epitome of irony.
Faith in Christ means that you are trusting in Him for salvation. Following/obeying His commands after you have been saved through faith is works. Have you perfectly obeyed ALL of Christ's commands? Are you sinless and perfect? Is that what you are trusting in for salvation?
What James means by "faith only" is an empty profession of faith. The lack of works demonstrate a dead faith. Faith that trusts only in Christ for salvation saves and is not barren of works because it's a living faith (Ephesians 2:5-10) not a dead faith. Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. You make the mistake of making faith AND works BOTH the root of salvation. That is salvation by works.
John 3:5 mentions nothing about baptism. John 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive.. There is your synonymous event. John 4:10 - "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." John 4:14 -but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. Jesus connects living water with eternal life, yet you don't even mention living water. Why is that? Paul connects Spirit baptism in 1 Corinthians 12:13 with drink into one Spirit. Are you seeing the connection yet?
That statement is the epitome of irony.
When did Cornelius enter into Christ? Was there water used before he entered, and since he was in what was the purpose of the water?
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Again without editing a single word..... When did Cornelius enter into the Holy Ghost (Christ Jesus) and why the water if he was ALREADY in Christ.... Come on this is from the Bible. Show me NOE verse that says we MUST be baptized IN WATER.... Just one verse....
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Again without editing a single word..... When did Cornelius enter into the Holy Ghost (Christ Jesus) and why the water if he was ALREADY in Christ.... Come on this is from the Bible. Show me NOE verse that says we MUST be baptized IN WATER.... Just one verse....
E
faith is the substance of things HOPED for the EVIDENCE of things NOT SEEN.
You faith is in things seen, not things Hoped for. thus you have no faith. your no better than the one who has zero works. Your faith is just as dead as his.
the difference. He has no faith period
You have faith in things seen, not hoped for..
there is no hope in your gospel. period
You faith is in things seen, not things Hoped for. thus you have no faith. your no better than the one who has zero works. Your faith is just as dead as his.
the difference. He has no faith period
You have faith in things seen, not hoped for..
there is no hope in your gospel. period
No, in Acts 19, what this proves is baptism in water is more than getting wet or a symbol, it is done after one hears the Gospel (these men didn't) if they didn't hear the Gospel they could not believe, they could not confess Christ because they were not yet taught Christ, once Paul taught them Christ Jesus (the Gospel) proving they were not saved until they were baptized for the right reasons. (and it does not say anything different in the Greek than it does in the English)
No, He was not saved until he was Baptized, you cannot show me where he was saved on the road, this is a conclusion drawn in your own mind with no scriptural authority to back it up (and the Greek says the same thing as the English)
Acts 10 and 11 prove water baptism is the saving baptism of Eph 4:5, Peter being an apostle, having divine revelation and the Holy Spirit guidance would not have had these people be baptized twice unless the second baptism was THE saving baptism, you cannot prove that Holy Spirit baptism is salvific, in fact these passages prove exactly the opposite, that the Holy Spirit baptism does NOT save, but was used twice, once here and once to the Apostles (Jew and Gentile, proving God is not a respecter of person) fulfilling the prophecy of Joel, and never done again after Acts 10.
I proved this wrong already in this post, see the start of it.
Paul did not say he did not baptize, he addressed division by those that claimed their baptism was better than another by who they were baptized by, all those in the Corinthian Church were water baptized or they would not be "in the body" or "In Christ", water baptism is how we get "In Christ".
Just as I thought, you cannot give me the Greek passages you claim make a person saved before baptism, you make false claims, portray as though you know Greek, but you're really going off some other mans false teaching on some website who as most do when they appeal to the Greek, don't use the Greek as it should be to better understand the English but to try and fool the English readers into believing their twisted English interpretation.
No, He was not saved until he was Baptized, you cannot show me where he was saved on the road, this is a conclusion drawn in your own mind with no scriptural authority to back it up (and the Greek says the same thing as the English)
Acts 10 and 11 prove water baptism is the saving baptism of Eph 4:5, Peter being an apostle, having divine revelation and the Holy Spirit guidance would not have had these people be baptized twice unless the second baptism was THE saving baptism, you cannot prove that Holy Spirit baptism is salvific, in fact these passages prove exactly the opposite, that the Holy Spirit baptism does NOT save, but was used twice, once here and once to the Apostles (Jew and Gentile, proving God is not a respecter of person) fulfilling the prophecy of Joel, and never done again after Acts 10.
I proved this wrong already in this post, see the start of it.
Paul did not say he did not baptize, he addressed division by those that claimed their baptism was better than another by who they were baptized by, all those in the Corinthian Church were water baptized or they would not be "in the body" or "In Christ", water baptism is how we get "In Christ".
Just as I thought, you cannot give me the Greek passages you claim make a person saved before baptism, you make false claims, portray as though you know Greek, but you're really going off some other mans false teaching on some website who as most do when they appeal to the Greek, don't use the Greek as it should be to better understand the English but to try and fool the English readers into believing their twisted English interpretation.
mailmandan,
but now you have changed the terminolgy but still confused.
Christ finished work of redemption is not only sufficient for every thing in this world, it actually saved everything in this world from death and sin. Eph 2:8 is NOT addressing eternal life, but it is addressing salvation. Which is why it is not up to us, no works can defeat death and sin.
However, part of that gift is that one shall recieve eternal life through faith. All faith is doing is getting us in the door, into Christ. It simply differentiates and makes the difference between a believer and an unbeliever. Faith has no content.
But eternal life must be accomplished with God which we do with that faith, belief IN Christ. We are to perfect ourselves as human beings which is all works. Works were created for us to do. Eph 2:10. They are the prerequiste to achieve eternal life with Christ.
Faith, faith only does not grant eternal life absolutely. It permits one to enter so that one can be saved and can be perfected, and thus attain eternal life absolutely.
You are believing in the very opposite of the deception that Satan used on Adam and Eve. The created purpose of man was to attain to the Likeness of God, maturity, perfection and attain immortality. Satan told Eve that they could do that by eating the fruit and attain the same thing, which meant by themselves, they did not need God to help them be like Him.
Now, Satan has you believing that you don't need to do anything to perfect yourself as a human being because God supposedly has already done this for you which you call salvation.
When in Truth in both instances, the work was to be done together to be perfected.
It is neither.
Therefore your confusion.
Salvation is from death and sin. Something no man could accomplish which is why Christ was needed in the first place. But man has never had a problem being united with God. That was the reason we were created, to be in union with God, but man was created good, not perfect. He was to attain in Adam's case immortality.
The faith part merely gets us in the door. Adam fell out of a relationship, we also need to first get back into the relationship and that is what faith accomplishes, Justification by faith, made acceptable to God. That is NOT attaining eternal life. Now that we are IN Christ, in a relationship with HIm, just as Adam was in the beginning, we are to perfect ourselves as human beings and IF we are faithful, endure to the end, we shall be given absolutely eternal life with Christ.
NO, you have simply been saved from death and sin. Which constitutes the fall of man through Adam. That is not what we were created to do, save ourselves from death and sin. We were given salvation from death and sin,in order for God and man to be reunited again in a union, but also for an eternity if we work with Him to perfect ourselves.
You can have one without the other. Unbelievers also have salvation from death and sin. You are not saved form death and sin as a potential believer. Christ needed to defeat Satan as well, who held the world captive through the power of death and sin. It precluded God ever having a relationship with man and surely not for an eternity.
Actually it is opposite. They believe that Christ defeated them by giving salvation to the world. But that has nothing to do with attaining eternal life. Eternal life is about working with God through faith.
YOur explanation is that you trust in Christ for salvation and nothing more in needed from you. Satan does not need anything done more to defeat him either. But neither is addressing attaining eternal life which is why Christ saved you,gave you salvation from death and sin.
This is a very confused statement. Saving faith has nothing to do with actually trusting in Christ's finished work. You have it whether you trust or not, just as an unbeliever has it, and he does not need to believe.
Believing is that you actually believe that Christ is the Savior of the world. That He is who He says He is, and thus you can trust HIM to be able to work with you toward attaining eternal life. Then you have all of His promises to assist etc, etc, but NEVER is there a promise that man has a guaranteed existence or eternal life just because he believed.
If I may, permit me to divide up the elements of the difference between "eternal life" and salvation.
Adam was created good, not perfect. He was to work with God in this creation which is also a gift to man. We were to use it for his glory and work to bring creation and oneself back to God as a living sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving. If Adam had remained faithful he would have attained immortality. Eternal, perfected existence with God.
OK. Adam failed in this vocation. Satan decieved and took man captive through death. (Lets leave adams actual sin out of the picture as it has no direct relevance to us) It was the condemnation of that sin, namely death, physical death, the cessation of the human existence as well as the world. Decay, corruption and death was the end of man and the world. Each would be dissolved into dust. Well, that kinda precluded God ever having an eternal relationship with man.
One note, it is death that is the primary problem for man. It ended any eternal existence, but it is death that makes us sin. I Cor 15:56.
Second note, God, of course knew that Adam would sin. In his great love, mercy and justice God permitted Satan to capture man through death by using his nature. Because man is so intrinsically connected to the material world, the world was also effected by that death. Christ also knew that Christ would be the solution and the solution would also be accomplished through the nature of man. Christ was Incarnated, assumed our fallen mortal nature, and by death, defeated both death and sin, the power of Satan through His resurrection.
NOw, that is the gift of salvation from death and sin that is given to all men, the world.
Now, God can again have an eternal relationship with man, now and in eternity. The sacrifice for sin, enabled God to forgive man of his sins, since man will still sin, and to remain in Christ, man cannot have sin. To be perfected means to be able to sin less, doing the work of Christ who is our perfect model and example. As long as you are fulfiliing the law of Christ, love, you will abide IN HIM. But when love stops, sin is at the door. If sin becomes our mode of living again we have fallen from that relationship. One needs to be faithful to the end, do the opposite of Adam and attain eternal life with Christ. All men will be raised(because of His resurrection - giving life to the world) in the last day to stand in judgement to give an account of what they did with the Gift of salvation and God's call to union with Him.
That in a nutshell is salvation and eternal life. It is the created purpose of God in creating man,
Man fell precluding eternity and any relationsip.
Salvation from the fall, and reunion with God, and doing what we were created to do to attain eternal life with Christ.
That is a very elementary synopsis to say the least, but it puts scripture in perspective.
Again, see above. again a misunderstanding of scriptural terminology.
Now, you don't need to believe this, but this is what scripture has meant from the beginning, as the Apostles taught it to the early Church.
but now you have changed the terminolgy but still confused.
Christ finished work of redemption is not only sufficient for every thing in this world, it actually saved everything in this world from death and sin. Eph 2:8 is NOT addressing eternal life, but it is addressing salvation. Which is why it is not up to us, no works can defeat death and sin.
However, part of that gift is that one shall recieve eternal life through faith. All faith is doing is getting us in the door, into Christ. It simply differentiates and makes the difference between a believer and an unbeliever. Faith has no content.
But eternal life must be accomplished with God which we do with that faith, belief IN Christ. We are to perfect ourselves as human beings which is all works. Works were created for us to do. Eph 2:10. They are the prerequiste to achieve eternal life with Christ.
Faith, faith only does not grant eternal life absolutely. It permits one to enter so that one can be saved and can be perfected, and thus attain eternal life absolutely.
You are believing in the very opposite of the deception that Satan used on Adam and Eve. The created purpose of man was to attain to the Likeness of God, maturity, perfection and attain immortality. Satan told Eve that they could do that by eating the fruit and attain the same thing, which meant by themselves, they did not need God to help them be like Him.
Now, Satan has you believing that you don't need to do anything to perfect yourself as a human being because God supposedly has already done this for you which you call salvation.
When in Truth in both instances, the work was to be done together to be perfected.
It is neither.
Therefore your confusion.
Salvation is from death and sin. Something no man could accomplish which is why Christ was needed in the first place. But man has never had a problem being united with God. That was the reason we were created, to be in union with God, but man was created good, not perfect. He was to attain in Adam's case immortality.
The faith part merely gets us in the door. Adam fell out of a relationship, we also need to first get back into the relationship and that is what faith accomplishes, Justification by faith, made acceptable to God. That is NOT attaining eternal life. Now that we are IN Christ, in a relationship with HIm, just as Adam was in the beginning, we are to perfect ourselves as human beings and IF we are faithful, endure to the end, we shall be given absolutely eternal life with Christ.
NO, you have simply been saved from death and sin. Which constitutes the fall of man through Adam. That is not what we were created to do, save ourselves from death and sin. We were given salvation from death and sin,in order for God and man to be reunited again in a union, but also for an eternity if we work with Him to perfect ourselves.
You can have one without the other. Unbelievers also have salvation from death and sin. You are not saved form death and sin as a potential believer. Christ needed to defeat Satan as well, who held the world captive through the power of death and sin. It precluded God ever having a relationship with man and surely not for an eternity.
Actually it is opposite. They believe that Christ defeated them by giving salvation to the world. But that has nothing to do with attaining eternal life. Eternal life is about working with God through faith.
YOur explanation is that you trust in Christ for salvation and nothing more in needed from you. Satan does not need anything done more to defeat him either. But neither is addressing attaining eternal life which is why Christ saved you,gave you salvation from death and sin.
This is a very confused statement. Saving faith has nothing to do with actually trusting in Christ's finished work. You have it whether you trust or not, just as an unbeliever has it, and he does not need to believe.
Believing is that you actually believe that Christ is the Savior of the world. That He is who He says He is, and thus you can trust HIM to be able to work with you toward attaining eternal life. Then you have all of His promises to assist etc, etc, but NEVER is there a promise that man has a guaranteed existence or eternal life just because he believed.
If I may, permit me to divide up the elements of the difference between "eternal life" and salvation.
Adam was created good, not perfect. He was to work with God in this creation which is also a gift to man. We were to use it for his glory and work to bring creation and oneself back to God as a living sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving. If Adam had remained faithful he would have attained immortality. Eternal, perfected existence with God.
OK. Adam failed in this vocation. Satan decieved and took man captive through death. (Lets leave adams actual sin out of the picture as it has no direct relevance to us) It was the condemnation of that sin, namely death, physical death, the cessation of the human existence as well as the world. Decay, corruption and death was the end of man and the world. Each would be dissolved into dust. Well, that kinda precluded God ever having an eternal relationship with man.
One note, it is death that is the primary problem for man. It ended any eternal existence, but it is death that makes us sin. I Cor 15:56.
Second note, God, of course knew that Adam would sin. In his great love, mercy and justice God permitted Satan to capture man through death by using his nature. Because man is so intrinsically connected to the material world, the world was also effected by that death. Christ also knew that Christ would be the solution and the solution would also be accomplished through the nature of man. Christ was Incarnated, assumed our fallen mortal nature, and by death, defeated both death and sin, the power of Satan through His resurrection.
NOw, that is the gift of salvation from death and sin that is given to all men, the world.
Now, God can again have an eternal relationship with man, now and in eternity. The sacrifice for sin, enabled God to forgive man of his sins, since man will still sin, and to remain in Christ, man cannot have sin. To be perfected means to be able to sin less, doing the work of Christ who is our perfect model and example. As long as you are fulfiliing the law of Christ, love, you will abide IN HIM. But when love stops, sin is at the door. If sin becomes our mode of living again we have fallen from that relationship. One needs to be faithful to the end, do the opposite of Adam and attain eternal life with Christ. All men will be raised(because of His resurrection - giving life to the world) in the last day to stand in judgement to give an account of what they did with the Gift of salvation and God's call to union with Him.
That in a nutshell is salvation and eternal life. It is the created purpose of God in creating man,
Man fell precluding eternity and any relationsip.
Salvation from the fall, and reunion with God, and doing what we were created to do to attain eternal life with Christ.
That is a very elementary synopsis to say the least, but it puts scripture in perspective.
Again, see above. again a misunderstanding of scriptural terminology.
Now, you don't need to believe this, but this is what scripture has meant from the beginning, as the Apostles taught it to the early Church.
what kind of 'faith' is that? Chinese-import-knock-off-faith-replica-for-display-purposes-only-faith-flavored-faith-substitute??
but i believe this Word is true:
For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God
(Ephesians 2:8)
amen! wherewith i am filled with thankfulness
let's not forget this sentiment! ↑
i think we could all do much better to take that to heart
but i believe this Word is true:
For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God
(Ephesians 2:8)
amen! wherewith i am filled with thankfulness
let's not forget this sentiment! ↑
i think we could all do much better to take that to heart