Does water baptism save us

[SunnySoul]

Butch5 ..you are playing with words...

2 timothy 2:14-15 "Keep reminding God's people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker that does not need to be ashamed and who CORRECTLY handles the word of truth."

 

[Butch5]

Butch5 ..you are playing with words...

2 timothy 2:14-15 "Keep reminding God's people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker that does not need to be ashamed and who CORRECTLY handles the word of truth."

No, I'm not. Are you aware of what Paul was addressing in the passage?

 

[Cobus]

Boy, , this is so full of Bible ignorance I do not know where to to begin. You are seriously trying to tell me that the eunuch was not saved? Then I wonder why he went on his way rejoicing. Next you say the eunuch did not receive the Holy Spirit. Really?Acts 2:38 says that those who were baptized on Pentecost received the Holy Spirit. Why did not the eunuch receive it? See how much since you are making? And, of course, you did not furnish a single scripture to back your claim.

The Holy Spirit is not Jesus, the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit. It is unbelievable that you claim all those people on the day of Pentecost were not saved. How many times do we have to tell you. Water does not save. The blood of Christ saves and the question is how do we come in contact with that blood. Gal. 3:26-27 gives the answer. There is one baptism today. It is not the Holy Spirit baptism but the baptism of the great commission in Matthew 28. Anytime baptism is mentioned it appears you just automatically assume that it's Holy Spirit baptism.

Ok you want Scripture to proove the Enuch was not saved and did NOT recieve the Holy Spirit.... Well we only have to go back a few verses, in Acts 8, to Samaria and their water baptism done by the SAME person Philip that baptized the Eunoch....

Sir and be ready to be proven wrong in your doctrine..... Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Act 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip
Here we see that Philip baptized the people in water...... But look the HOLY SPIRIT DID NOT FALL UPON NONE OF THEM YET...
And since we all know only people that has the Holy Spirit in them are the saved ones, NONE OF THEM WERE SAVED YET!!!!Do you see that Philip could not baptize with SALVATION/Holy Spirit! Not a single person in that city was saved by the baptism in water by Philip. A man of God! Even Simon was baptized and he also was not saved by the water. Proof that only Apostles can baptize with the Holy Spirit. Philip was an evangelist who was laid hands on to be a deacon. One of the seven deacons in acts 6. Apostles get the gift to baptize in Holy Spirit. Look here....Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Alligator now here is your weakness shown... I know Philip was a man full of the Holy Ghost, and a man found worthy by the Apostles to be a deacon/evangelist. Acts 6:3... And the apsotles even laid hands on them and the Word of God multiplied... But Philip NEVER baptized with Holy Spirit. NOt the whole town of Samaria and not the Eunoch.


Now stop arguing, and if you still do not understnad ASK. I will pray God reveal His word for you. If this does not show you that SALVATION is NOT water baptism but Spirit Baptism it will take a miricle for you to believe Scripture. I did not make the rules God did.


And only the 120 in the upper room was baptized (filled with) with the Holy Spirit on penticost ... look here.... And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) Acts 1.

Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Now I think you will agree... the ONE BAPTISM that God use to save a person is the FILLING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, THE BORN OF GOD, THE BORN AGAIN OF SPIRIT AND TRUTH, THE GLORIFICATION OF THE NEW CREATURE IN CHRIST, THE COMPLETION OF THE SANCTIFICATION, THE EDIFYING OF THE BODY OF CHRIST. THE PERFECTING OF THE SAINT. UNTO A PERFECT MAN. MADE ONE WITH GOD. GOD INTO MAN, MAN INTO GOD.

All these expressions means only one thing... it is the MOMENT God fills a fleshly body with His Holy Spirit!

Salvation happens the moment when a man enters into the LORD. HOW? When a man is cleansed as God is clean, he can enter into the narrow gate (Through Jesus into Father God's Kingdom) Pure, holy and perfect! And God will enter into the man by God filling the man with the Holy Spirit.)

Jesus said... The world will hate you for my Name sake.... but those that endure to the end shall be saved.... WOW! And you think getiing into a swimming pool with a sinner and he dunks you a few times or once (also great arguments there) you are now a holy man of God? WOW!

Salvation is unto a perfect man right here on earth. Eph 4:13. And only God can make holy and perfect. So it has to be a GOD WORKING THING....

 

[Butch5]

Really ?? Did you understand what I wrote ?? I am French but I am sure I wrote english...lol

Salvation is like a transformation ! When you are saved THROUGH FAITH, there should be an outward evidence of it !! You are not saved by your works !!

Check Matthew 7:20 "Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."
and James 2:14-26 14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food.16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]?21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together,and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[b] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Do not get confused !!!

I didn't say anything about being saved by works, that's a straw man. If God said, do this and I'll save you, that's not being saved by works, it's meeting a condition to be saved.

I'm glad you brought up James. If you look at the Greek text you'll see that James actually said, I will show you my faith "out of" my works. So, according to the apostle real saving faith comes out of works. Here is Yong's Literal translation.

YLT
James 2:18 But say may some one, Thou hast faith, and I have works, shew me thy faith out of thy works, and I will shew thee out of my works my faith: (Jam 2:18 YLT)

 

[Kerry]

My straw man is in the garden to keep the crows away. My strong and mighty fortress is the work that Jesus did on the cross and not some mans stamp.

 

[Jackson123]

That's the way God has given to enter into the covenant. Now, God can save whoever He wants to save. However, He has said that he will save the one who believes and is baptized. Can God save someone who has not been baptized, sure He can. However, He has not promised to. So, when you guys say that baptism isn't necessary you're preaching something that the God did not say.

Brother, I am not say baptism is not necessary. I said water baptism not save us.

Baptism in the name of Father Son and Holy gosh is necessary. But ritual water baptism is not guaranty baptism in the name of Father Son and Holy spirit.

After baptism with the Father, Son and Holy spirit, a man must change. If he was rapist, now he not rape any more. the tree must prove by it fruit.

Water baptism not always change a person. because it is only symbol. If that person serious, must bear the fruit.

How about the felon on the side of the Lord on the cross.

Do you think he have been baptize before or he not baptize yet?

Do you believe that God only forgive on the water baptism like what you said before?

 

[Kerry]

Brother, I am not say baptism is not necessary. I said water baptism not save us.

Baptism in the name of Father Son and Holy gosh is necessary. But ritual water baptism is not guaranty baptism in the name of Father Son and Holy spirit.

After baptism with the Father, Son and Holy spirit, a man must change. If he was rapist, now he not rape any more. the tree must prove by it fruit.

Water baptism not always change a person. because it is only symbol. If that person serious, must bear the fruit.

How about the felon on the side of the Lord on the cross.

Do you think he have been baptize before or he not baptize yet?

Do you believe that God only forgive on the water baptism like what you said before?

They will say that more than most likely he had been baptized by John. but, that differs from their doctrine, if he had been baptized then therefore he was saved, but yet he was a thief.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

The New covenant is brought about by the blood of Christ. Let me ask you, how does one enter the New Covenant?

[SUP]27[/SUP] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
[SUP]28[/SUP] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]29[/SUP] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise
(Gal 3:27-29 KJV)

and with the New covenant comes a new baptism - In the Old Covenant John truly baptized with water but there was one coming that was mightier than John and he baptizes in holy Spirit - now there is one baptism - the baptism of the holy Spirit.

Just a little side note - v27 does not say 'water'. With the resurrection of Jesus Christ; we are baptized with 'living water', i.e. holy Spirit

Gal. 3:26 For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

1 Co. 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

 

[SunnySoul]

I didn't say anything about being saved by works, that's a straw man. If God said, do this and I'll save you, that's not being saved by works, it's meeting a condition to be saved.

I'm glad you brought up James. If you look at the Greek text you'll see that James actually said, I will show you my faith "out of" my works. So, according to the apostle real saving faith comes out of works. Here is Yong's Literal translation.

YLT
James 2:18 But say may some one, Thou hast faith, and I have works, shew me thy faith out of thy works, and I will shew thee out of my works my faith: (Jam 2:18 YLT)

Well that is your understanding that is different...Paul is saying that your works should reflect your faith !! True faith results in good deeds...not that good deeds save you!

 

[Jackson123]

They will say that more than most likely he had been baptized by John. but, that differs from their doctrine, if he had been baptized then therefore he was saved, but yet he was a thief.

that what I want to know what is brother Bath doctrine. Brother Bath doctrine is similar to Catholic doctrine that water baptism ritual forgive sin.

 

[Butch5]

Brother, I am not say baptism is not necessary. I said water baptism not save us.

Baptism in the name of Father Son and Holy gosh is necessary. But ritual water baptism is not guaranty baptism in the name of Father Son and Holy spirit.

After baptism with the Father, Son and Holy spirit, a man must change. If he was rapist, now he not rape any more. the tree must prove by it fruit.

Water baptism not always change a person. because it is only symbol. If that person serious, must bear the fruit.

How about the felon on the side of the Lord on the cross.

Do you think he have been baptize before or he not baptize yet?

Do you believe that God only forgive on the water baptism like what you said before?

As I said, God can save anyone He chooses to save, He doesn't need water baptism, He doesn't need faith, He doesn't need anything. However, we have to go by what He said He would do. He said He would save the one who believes and is baptized.

KJV
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mar 16:16 KJV)

In this verse believe and baptized are in the aorist tense while saved is in the future tense. What that means is that belief and baptism "MUST" precede saved. There's no way to place salvation before baptism, the grammar of this passage simply will not allow it. This is who God said He would save. So, we can tell people that God will save those who believe and are baptized. However, if we tell people they can be saved but not baptized we are telling them something that God did not say, thus we are misleading them.

I realize that baptism doesn't change people. People change people. I'm not sure about the thief, it's possible that he was baptized at some point before he reached the cross but we don't know, However, the thief was forgiven under the old covenant as Jesus was alive when He told the thief he would be in Paradise.

 

[Butch5]

and with the New covenant comes a new baptism - In the Old Covenant John truly baptized with water but there was one coming that was mightier than John and he baptizes in holy Spirit - now there is one baptism - the baptism of the holy Spirit.

Just a little side note - v27 does not say 'water'. With the resurrection of Jesus Christ; we are baptized with 'living water', i.e. holy Spirit

Gal. 3:26 For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

1 Co. 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

John wasn't baptizing under the Old Covenant.

KJV
Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; [SUP]2[/SUP] As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. [SUP]3[/SUP] The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. [SUP]4[/SUP] John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. {for: or, unto} [SUP]5[/SUP] And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. (Mar 1:1 KJV)

That's New Covenant.

Verse 27 also doesn't say spirit, you're simply assuming that. However, we do know that the common method of baptism was water.

Paul was writing to the Corinthians who had been baptized in the Spirit which is evidenced by the miraculous gifts they received. However, he was writing to the Corinthians, what justification do you have for applying that statement universally to all Christians?

 

[Butch5]

Well that is your understanding that is different...Paul is saying that your works should reflect your faith !! True faith results in good deeds...not that good deeds save you!

It's my understanding? Its' what the passage says. If Christians would simply accept the Scriptures and let go of the teachings of men they would have a much better understanding of the Scriptures. Instead they take the doctrines of men and try to defend them with passages of Scripture taken out of context.

And I'll say again, I didn't say works saved anyone, God saves. However, if He requires works then one must do works in order to be saved. Obedience is required.

 

[Kerry]

It's my understanding? Its' what the passage says. If Christians would simply accept the Scriptures and let go of the teachings of men they would have a much better understanding of the Scriptures. Instead they take the doctrines of men and try to defend them with passages of Scripture taken out of context.

And I'll say again, I didn't say works saved anyone, God saves. However, if He requires works then one must do works in order to be saved. Obedience is required.

obedience to what?

 

[Jackson123]

As I said, God can save anyone He chooses to save, He doesn't need water baptism, He doesn't need faith, He doesn't need anything. However, we have to go by what He said He would do. He said He would save the one who believes and is baptized.

KJV
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mar 16:16 KJV)

In this verse believe and baptized are in the aorist tense while saved is in the future tense. What that means is that belief and baptism "MUST" precede saved. There's no way to place salvation before baptism, the grammar of this passage simply will not allow it. This is who God said He would save. So, we can tell people that God will save those who believe and are baptized. However, if we tell people they can be saved but not baptized we are telling them something that God did not say, thus we are misleading them.

I realize that baptism doesn't change people. People change people. I'm not sure about the thief, it's possible that he was baptized at some point before he reached the cross but we don't know, However, the thief was forgiven under the old covenant as Jesus was alive when He told the thief he would be in Paradise.

The topic is Does water baptism save us?

Like I said, baptism or immersion in the name of Father Son and Holy spirit save us.

When people believe and invite Jesus in his heart it automatically he is immerse or baptize in the name of Father Son and Holy spirit, because Holy spirit is dwell in him. so He is already baptize and save, even not go to water baptism which just a symbol.
This real baptism must prove by it fruit. in the sense that after person baptized by the Father Son and Holy spirit his life will change. He become new creation, born again in the spirit.

 

[Linda70]

It's my understanding? Its' what the passage says. If Christians would simply accept the Scriptures and let go of the teachings of men they would have a much better understanding of the Scriptures. Instead they take the doctrines of men and try to defend them with passages of Scripture taken out of context.

And I'll say again, I didn't say works saved anyone, God saves. However, if He requires works then one must do works in order to be saved. Obedience is required.

You are putting the cart before the horse, Butch5! God does not contradict Himself. He does not "require" that which He specifically states will not save. If works don't save (and Scripture states that works don't save), why would you say that "if He requires works in order to be saved".

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are saved by grace through faith...UNTO good works, not BY our good works! Faith is the ROOT and good works is the FRUIT.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[Kerry]

Butch, slow down and listen. Salvation is a free gift to all men, Righteousness is a free gift. All we have to do is accept it. At Christmas some one gives you a gift, did you earn it? did you do something to deserve it? did you you throw it back in their face or did you just accept it? That is the simplicity of the Gospel. Will we obey God's word yes, but only after we have accepted the free gift.

Jesus took upon Himself our sins and nailed them to the cross. Now by His unmerited (grace) favor whosoever shall believe (faith) in the Lord Jesus Christ and confess with His mouth( faith acted upon), they shall be saved. There is nothing you can do except to accept the work of the cross and that's it.

 

[Elizabeth619]

This thread is still going, and people are now repeating themselves over and over and over and over...

 

[Elizabeth619]

To be justified by faith only means that excludes repentance.
Faith is also a work if you think about it.
I think a few people here don't really understand what "works" are.

 

[saved1975]

You might want to reread what Peter said because he didn't say baptism was a symbol. You also might want to learn Greek because it's clear in the Greek what Peter and Paul said. And yes, I'll take the word of Ignatius, a disciple of the apostle John over your word. I guess you didn't notice that Ignatius was quoting the apostle Paul. Since you reject Ignatius' quote of the apostle Paul I must conclude that you reject the words of the apostle Paul, would that be correct?

Peter did say baptism was a symbol, And so does the Greek.
Peter and Paul knew water baptism doesn't save.

So you admit that you take the word of Ignatius above the Bible.
That's up to you, But I will believe the Bibcle and the Biblical Greek texts.