Does water baptism save us

[Butch5]

You are putting the cart before the horse, Butch5! God does not contradict Himself. He does not "require" that which He specifically states will not save. If works don't save (and Scripture states that works don't save), why would you say that "if He requires works in order to be saved".

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are saved by grace through faith...UNTO good works, not BY our good works! Faith is the ROOT and good works is the FRUIT.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

"He does not "require" that which He specifically states will not save."

Are you familiar with the Mosaic Law? God commanded it yet it could not save.

The passages you've quoted, in context are speaking of the Mosaic Law. If you look at them in context rather than simply proof texting them that becomes quite clear. I don't know if your familiar with the Judaizers or not. If you study the historical setting for Paul's writing on works it's quite clear what he was addressing. If look back a few verses in Galatians 2 you'll see where Paul is going with this.

KJV
Galatians 2:1 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
[SUP]2[/SUP] And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain. {privately: or, severally}
[SUP]3[/SUP] But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
[SUP]4[/SUP] And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
[SUP]5[/SUP] To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. (Gal 2:1-5 KJV)

He's says that false brethren crept in. Luke tells us a little more about this.

KJV
Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
[SUP]2[/SUP] When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
[SUP]3[/SUP] And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
[SUP]4[/SUP] And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
[SUP]5[/SUP] But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. {rose...: or, rose up, said they, certain}
[SUP]6[/SUP] And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
[SUP]7[/SUP] And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
[SUP]8[/SUP] And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
[SUP]9[/SUP] And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
[SUP]10[/SUP] Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
[SUP]11[/SUP] But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
[SUP]12[/SUP] Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
[SUP]13[/SUP] And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
[SUP]14[/SUP] Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
[SUP]15[/SUP] And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
[SUP]16[/SUP] After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
[SUP]17[/SUP] That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
[SUP]18[/SUP] Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
[SUP]19[/SUP] Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
[SUP]20[/SUP] But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
[SUP]21[/SUP] For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
[SUP]22[/SUP] Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
[SUP]23[/SUP] And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
[SUP]24[/SUP] Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
[SUP]25[/SUP] It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
[SUP]26[/SUP] Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]27[/SUP] We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. {mouth: Gr. word}
[SUP]28[/SUP] For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
[SUP]29[/SUP] That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
(Act 15:1-29 KJV)

Luke records that there were Jewish believers who were teaching Paul's converts that in addition to faith in Christ they also needed to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses (do the works of the Law). Paul went to Jerusalem by revelation of the Holy Spirit to settle this issue. Were the Gentiles to keep the Law of Moses or not. The apostles along with the Holy Spirit determined that it was not necessary for the Gentiles to be circumcised or keep the Law of Moses.

This is the background behind Paul's writings that deal with works. If you look at all of the places where Paul says no one is justified by works, in almost every case you'll see some reference in the context to the Law of Moses. The passage you stated from Galatians states right in the passage that it is speaking of the works of the Law. The passage in Ephesians 2 also is addressing the Mosaic Law. If you read on just a few passages further than what you posted you'll find.

[SUP]8[/SUP] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9[/SUP] Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[SUP]10[/SUP] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. {ordained: or, prepared}
[SUP]11[/SUP] Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
[SUP]12[/SUP] That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
[SUP]13[/SUP] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
[SUP]14[/SUP] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
[SUP]15[/SUP] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
[SUP]16[/SUP] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: {thereby: or, in himself}
[SUP]17[/SUP] And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
[SUP]18[/SUP] For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
(Eph 2:8-18 KJV)

 

[Butch5]

Butch, slow down and listen. Salvation is a free gift to all men, Righteousness is a free gift. All we have to do is accept it. At Christmas some one gives you a gift, did you earn it? did you do something to deserve it? did you you throw it back in their face or did you just accept it? That is the simplicity of the Gospel. Will we obey God's word yes, but only after we have accepted the free gift.

Jesus took upon Himself our sins and nailed them to the cross. Now by His unmerited (grace) favor whosoever shall believe (faith) in the Lord Jesus Christ and confess with His mouth( faith acted upon), they shall be saved. There is nothing you can do except to accept the work of the cross and that's it.

That's the typical line however, it's not what the Scriptures teach. Salvation is a gift but that doesn't mean you do nothing. This gospel of easy believism is dangerous.

[SUP]22[/SUP] And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.
[SUP]23[/SUP] Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
[SUP]24[/SUP] Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
[SUP]25[/SUP] When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

(Luk 13:22-25 KJV)

Jesus said, strive to enter in. Does that sound like simply do nothing and accept a free gift? Here's Strong definition of agonizomai



75


ἀγωνίζομαι agonizomai {ag-o-nid'-zom-ahee}




Meaning:

1) to enter a contest: contend in the gymnastic games 2) to contend with adversaries, fight 3) metaph. to contend, struggle, with difficulties and dangers 4) to endeavour with strenuous zeal, strive: to obtain something

That's what Jesus said to do to enter into life. That's not simply accepting a gift. Depsite modern popular teaching Jesus said to earnestly contend for eternal life.

 

[Butch5]

Peter did say baptism was a symbol, And so does the Greek.
Peter and Paul knew water baptism doesn't save.

You've said this multiple time and have yet to make the first effort to prove it. I don't think you understand Greek. How about giving some evidence for your claim.

[

So you admit that you take the word of Ignatius above the Bible.
That's up to you, But I will believe the Bibcle and the Biblical Greek texts.

Did you read what I said? I said, I take the word of Ignatius over your word. You say you believe the Bible and the Biblical texts, but in reality it's your interpretation of them that you really believe. So, show me where the Greek says what you claim.

Ignatius was alluding to Paul, So if you reject his statement you reject the apostle's words also.

Ignatius,

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Chap. II.—Be Subject to the Bishop, Etc.
Be ye subject to the bishop as to the Lord, for “he watches for your souls, as one that shall give account to God.” (Heb. 13:17) Wherefore also, ye appear to me to live not after the manner of men, but according to Jesus Christ, who died for us, in order that, by believing in His death, ye may by baptism be made partakers of His resurrection. It is therefore necessary, whatsoever things ye do, to do nothing without the bishop. And be ye subject also to the presbytery, as to the apostles of Jesus Christ, who is our hope, in whom, if we live, we shall be found in Him. It behoves you also, in every way, to please the deacons, who are [ministers] of the mysteries of Christ Jesus; for they are not ministers of meat and drink, but servants of the Church of God. They are bound, therefore, to avoid all grounds of accusation [against them], as they would a burning fire. Let them, then, prove themselves to be such.

Apostle Paul,
[SUP]
3[/SUP] are ye ignorant that we, as many as were baptized to Christ Jesus, to his death were baptized?[SUP]4[/SUP] we were buried together, then, with him through the baptism to the death, that even as Christ was raised up out of the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we in newness of life might walk.
[SUP]5[/SUP] For, if we have become planted together to the likeness of his death, so also we shall be of the rising again;
(Rom 6:3-5 YLT)


So, if you believe the Bible why are you arguing against baptism?

 

[Butch5]

One is saved through faith IN CHRIST alone and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9). Good works follow as the fruit of salvation but never the root. Good works do not follow a dead faith (James 2:14-20). The Bible tells us how we can know we are saved.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1 John 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

You have Eph 2 out of context.

James said that his faith came out of his works. If his faith came out of his works they cannot be a product of it.

please define Pisteuo.

 

[Jackson123]

So you say baptism is necessary, but if its not necessary to being saved, then why/what reason is water baptism necessary?

Brother, You have to think in macro scale.

John 15:
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

I quote from John 15. because this is the order that we have to understand.

Save is come only by faith.

When a person have faith in Jesus than he abide in Jesus. Then ha save. As a by product of his salvation, he bear fruit. And the fruit of Holy spirit is

Galatian 5

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

If the fruit is Love include Love Jesus than it also mean doing testimony to the congregation by water baptism.


So Salvation produce fruit and one of the fruit is water baptism if that person have a chance. If for some reason he die before that than he is save.

Water baptism is not requirement for salvation but product of salvation.

Don't reverse brother, reversal is the work of the enemy of God.

Don't exchange the sacrifice of Jesus by baptism ritual.

Baptism ritual can be artificial. For example, my neighbor went to baptism ritual because her fiance not going to marry her unless she willing to be baptize.

 

[Butch5]

It is truly amazing that the two things Jesus told us to do in baptism and the Lord's supper BOTH point to His death. And the sad part is that many want to take out any working of the Holy Spirit in baptism. For sure I can't bury myself with Christ in baptism. That can ONLY be a work of the Holy Spirit. I can't wash away my sins in baptism,that is a working of the Holy Spirit. How then can one really say that it is JUST an outward sign of an inward change? That doesn't make any sense to me at all.

The main reason is an incorrect understanding of "works". There is a misunderstanding of Paul's teaching that one is not saved by works. Paul is addressing an issue that was present in his day. The issue can be seen in Acts 15 and Galatians. There were believing Jews who were coming behind Paul and telling his coverts that in addition to faith in Christ they also needed to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. This was a big issue for Paul being the apostle to the Gentiles. He writes letters back to these Churches explaining that one is not saved by the works of the Law but rather by faith in Christ. However, many modern teachers (1500's and up) have taken Paul's arguments out of context and says "works" means anything a person does. From that they conclude that a person cannot do anything at all towards salvation. Since baptism requires that one do something they conclude that baptism plays no role in salvation. This all stems from one erroneous teaching. This is why it's so important that we make sure our doctrines align with the totality of Scripture and not just a few passages. One erroneous teaching can lead to another and another and another.

 

[Butch5]

Ask God. He has the power. Or do you deny he has the power to immerse you into his death burial and Christ?

Who else has the power to do this? Your priest?

I'm asking you. You said it happened to you, so what happened?

 

[Butch5]

Yes he was. He was the one who introduced the new. But the old had not yet been done away, The cross is what did away the Old.

That why the pharisees were questioning him, As a priest, he had the right to baptize. But he was supposed to be baptizing levites for the priesthood. Not everyone.

Do you actually read the passages of Scripture?

 

[SeaBass]

Brother, You have to think in macro scale.

John 15:
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

I quote from John 15. because this is the order that we have to understand.

Save is come only by faith.

When a person have faith in Jesus than he abide in Jesus. Then ha save. As a by product of his salvation, he bear fruit. And the fruit of Holy spirit is

Galatian 5

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

If the fruit is Love include Love Jesus than it also mean doing testimony to the congregation by water baptism.


So Salvation produce fruit and one of the fruit is water baptism if that person have a chance. If for some reason he die before that than he is save.

Water baptism is not requirement for salvation but product of salvation.

Don't reverse brother, reversal is the work of the enemy of God.

Don't exchange the sacrifice of Jesus by baptism ritual.

Baptism ritual can be artificial. For example, my neighbor went to baptism ritual because her fiance not going to marry her unless she willing to be baptize.

You said baptism is necessary, and here you seem to be saying (I think) that baptism is necessary to produce fruit.

Yet if no fruit is produced then that branch is cut off and thrown into the fire. So baptism would be necessary to not be unfruitful to keep from being cast into the fire.

 

[Butch5]

Well...if you take different translations, they seem to say the same thing. When you have faith, it shows by your actions ! And this what Paul says...I'm no trying to take Scriptures out of its context...

James2:18
Good News Bible But someone will say, “One person has faith, another has actions.” My answer is, “Show me how anyone can have faith without actions. I will show you my faith by my actions.”

ESV But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Amplified But someone will say [to you then], You [say you] have faith, and I have [good] works. Now you show me your [alleged] faith apart from any [good] works [if you can], and I by [good] works [of obedience] will show you my faith.

NKJV But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works.

NIV But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

"Out of" means from...it should show your faith !! If you have faith but you act like the world, it's dead faith...

Out of means, out of. James said, I will show you my faith out of my works. For faith to come out of works, works cannot be a product of faith. He said, faith without works is dead. How can dead faith produce works (or anything else for that matter)? The argument that says if you have faith it will produce works is refuted by James. Faith doesn't produce works, works are a part of faith. Faith without works is dead, faith with works is alive, the conclusion, works give life to faith. If works give life to faith then the cannot be the product of that faith.

 

[Alligator]

Ephesians 2.9

Ephesians 2.10

Boy, , this is so full of Bible ignorance I do not know where to to begin. You are seriously trying to tell me that the eunuch was not saved? Then I wonder why he went on his way rejoicing. Next you say the eunuch did not receive the Holy Spirit. Really?Acts 2:38 says that those who were baptized on Pentecost received the Holy Spirit. Why did not the eunuch receive it? See how much since you are making? And, of course, you did not furnish a single scripture to back your claim.

The Holy Spirit is not Jesus, the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit. It is unbelievable that you claim all those people on the day of Pentecost were not saved. How many times do we have to tell you. Water does not save. The blood of Christ saves and the question is how do we come in contact with that blood. Gal. 3:26-27 gives the answer. There is one baptism today. It is not the Holy Spirit baptism but the baptism of the great commission in Matthew 28. Anytime baptism is mentioned it appears you just automatically assume that it's Holy Spirit baptism.

Ok you want Scripture to proove the Enuch was not saved and did NOT recieve the Holy Spirit.... Well we only have to go back a few verses, in Acts 8, to Samaria and their water baptism done by the SAME person Philip that baptized the Eunoch....

Sir and be ready to be proven wrong in your doctrine..... Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Act 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip
Here we see that Philip baptized the people in water...... But look the HOLY SPIRIT DID NOT FALL UPON NONE OF THEM YET...
And since we all know only people that has the Holy Spirit in them are the saved ones, NONE OF THEM WERE SAVED YET!!!!Do you see that Philip could not baptize with SALVATION/Holy Spirit! Not a single person in that city was saved by the baptism in water by Philip. A man of God! Even Simon was baptized and he also was not saved by the water. Proof that only Apostles can baptize with the Holy Spirit. Philip was an evangelist who was laid hands on to be a deacon. One of the seven deacons in acts 6. Apostles get the gift to baptize in Holy Spirit. Look here....Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Alligator now here is your weakness shown... I know Philip was a man full of the Holy Ghost, and a man found worthy by the Apostles to be a deacon/evangelist. Acts 6:3... And the apsotles even laid hands on them and the Word of God multiplied... But Philip NEVER baptized with Holy Spirit. NOt the whole town of Samaria and not the Eunoch.


Now stop arguing, and if you still do not understnad ASK. I will pray God reveal His word for you. If this does not show you that SALVATION is NOT water baptism but Spirit Baptism it will take a miricle for you to believe Scripture. I did not make the rules God did.


And only the 120 in the upper room was baptized (filled with) with the Holy Spirit on penticost ... look here.... And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) Acts 1.

Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Now I think you will agree... the ONE BAPTISM that God use to save a person is the FILLING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, THE BORN OF GOD, THE BORN AGAIN OF SPIRIT AND TRUTH, THE GLORIFICATION OF THE NEW CREATURE IN CHRIST, THE COMPLETION OF THE SANCTIFICATION, THE EDIFYING OF THE BODY OF CHRIST. THE PERFECTING OF THE SAINT. UNTO A PERFECT MAN. MADE ONE WITH GOD. GOD INTO MAN, MAN INTO GOD.
O
All these expressions means only one thing... it is the MOMENT God fills a fleshly body with His Holy Spirit!

Salvation happens the moment when a man enters into the LORD. HOW? When a man is cleansed as God is clean, he can enter into the narrow gate (Through Jesus into Father God's Kingdom) Pure, holy and perfect! And God will enter into the man by God filling the man with the Holy Spirit.)

Jesus said... The world will hate you for my Name sake.... but those that endure to the end shall be saved.... WOW! And you think getiing into a swimming pool with a sinner and he dunks you a few times or once (also great arguments there) you are now a holy man of God? WOW!

Salvation is unto a perfect man right here on earth. Eph 4:13. And only God can make holy and perfect. So it has to be a GOD WORKING THING....

You are making a lot of unfounded assumptions. I ask you again, what evidence do you have that the eunuch was not saved? Why would he go on his way rejoicing if he were not saved? The truth is, he received the Holy Spirit just like those on Pentecost in Acts 2:i38. If not, why not? All baptized believers receive the Holy Spirit.

In Acts chapter 8 verses 13 and 14, some of those who were baptized were concerned that they did not have the same spiritual gifts, such as healing, as some of the other disciples did. They were then given the Holy Spirit, by the laying on of hands, but this has nothing to do with the their salvation. And if you will read the context of Acts 10, regarding Cornelius and his household, you will note the same thing. Holy Spirit baptism was not for salvation but to prove to the Jews that the Gentiles were also a part of gods plan. This is very evident by the context given.
You make the statement that salvation happens the moment one enters The Lord. This I agree with. Please look at Galatians 3:26-27 and it tell you how we can can enter The Lord.

 

[SeaBass]

preaching does not save.

1 Cor 1:21 "... it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

Preaching communicates the gospel which saves therefore preaching saves for it plays a role in salvation.

 

[Cassian]

Brother, You have to think in macro scale.

John 15:
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

I quote from John 15. because this is the order that we have to understand.

Save is come only by faith.

When a person have faith in Jesus than he abide in Jesus. Then ha save. As a by product of his salvation, he bear fruit. And the fruit of Holy spirit is

One is not absolutely, finitely saved by being jusfified by faith. It makes one acceptable to God. Repentance is a requirement then baptism. One cannot even be IN Christ unless one is baptised by water and the Spirit. One does not receive the Holy Spirit unless one is baptised first.

Galatian 5

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

If the fruit is Love include Love Jesus than it also mean doing testimony to the congregation by water baptism.

a little backward, because these fruits are the fruits of the Spirit, and since one does not have the Spirit prior to baptism they would not be produced.

So Salvation produce fruit and one of the fruit is water baptism if that person have a chance. If for some reason he die before that than he is save.

Since one is NOT saved yet, only has possession of eternal life, the inheritance is at the end. Faith and the Spirit produce the fruit.

Water baptism is not requirement for salvation but product of salvation.

If you can find a text that denies John5:3 where baptism is entrance INTO Christ, as does Rom 6:3-4 describe, how can one be saved OUTSIDE of Christ.

Don't reverse brother, reversal is the work of the enemy of God.

to say the least your theology is very confused.

Don't exchange the sacrifice of Jesus by baptism ritual.

Baptism ritual can be artificial. For example, my neighbor went to baptism ritual because her fiance not going to marry her unless she willing to be baptize.



[/QUOTE]

 

[Jackson123]

You said baptism is necessary, and here you seem to be saying (I think) that baptism is necessary to produce fruit.

Yet if no fruit is produced then that branch is cut off and thrown into the fire. So baptism would be necessary to not be unfruitful to keep from being cast into the fire.

Brother, you have to distinguish between water baptism and baptism in the name of Father Son and Holy spirit.


Before water baptism person must accept Jesus first. And accept Jesus mean invite Jesus into person heart mean Holy spirit Immerse in this person and immersion mean baptism.

Then he bear the fruit, and go to water baptism.

Water baptism is just testimony and it is one of the fruit of immersion or baptize with Holy spirit.

water baptism if genuine is fruit of the baptism /immersion in Holy spirit.

It not save person, it product of the salvation.

You always confuse between baptism with Holy spirit and water baptism.

Let me repeat one more time.

Accept Jesus mean Invite Jesus mean immerse in Jesus mean baptize in Father Son and Holy spirit.

Then this person bear fruit and have love, go to water baptism (testimony) etc.

 

[posthuman]

1 Cor 1:21 "... it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

Preaching communicates the gospel which saves therefore preaching saves for it plays a role in salvation.

it's what is preached that is the good word unto salvation, not the act of preaching that saves.

again, Stephen preached to the Sanhedrin and was martyred. did hearing Stephen justify, save and redeem the Sanhedrin?
you are fond of mocking John Calvin, who famously preached​ many sermons - did John Calvin save anyone? or does Christ alone receive that honor and glory?

there may be many things God uses to bring you to a knowledge of the Truth.
if you receive that Truth, then whatever the tool that was used to break up your ground, plant a seed in you, prune you or pull weeds from around your feet, it is GOD alone that saves you, not a rake, a hoe or a shovel.

 

[posthuman]

i rode in a 12 passenger van to a camp where i heard the gospel preached, and believed, and was saved.

do 12 passenger vans "save" ?

 

[posthuman]

i know a man who was huffing gas one day and had a vision from God, and that moment believed, and repented, and was saved from death and brought into the light.

does huffing gas "save" ?

 

[posthuman]

i know also a woman who was flipping through radio stations when the one she was listening to went out of range, and heard the gospel preached, and believed, and repented, and was saved.

does poor radio reception "save" ?

 

[posthuman]

only God saves.

Truly my soul waiteth upon God:
from him cometh my salvation.
(Psalm 62:1)

 

[Jackson123]

One is not absolutely, finitely saved by being jusfified by faith. It makes one acceptable to God. Repentance is a requirement then baptism. One cannot even be IN Christ unless one is baptised by water and the Spirit. One does not receive the Holy Spirit unless one is baptised first.

Brother.

Can you give me the supporting verse?

You confuse between repent and faith. If a man have a faith in Jesus, mean he believe in Jesus Faith is believe in the sense of real trust. Let say one come to you in California and ask the direction to arizona, then you direct him to take Hwy 10
east. He take 5 north. Is he have faith in you?

Have faith mean follow His teaching and mean repent. But to doing good one must abide in Him. It is what Jesus said. one can not bear fruit by itself.






a little backward, because these fruits are the fruits of the Spirit, and since one does not have the Spirit prior to baptism they would not be produced.



Brother,

No body able to fool God. Let say a person go to baptism with the motive other than God for example to impress her fiance, did God give her Holy spirit?

God is pure and want pure heart.

God Give Holy spirit as son as people crying and call upon His name. He who call upon His name will be save.

In you doctrine, ritual water baptism replace the sacrifice of Jesus in the cross. Also I read catholic believe if you wear scapular you save. Imagine the sacrifice of Jesus equated by wearing scapular, so cheap. It reduce the value of the blood by only ritual or scapular. Who is in behind this doctrine?


Since one is NOT saved yet, only has possession of eternal life, the inheritance is at the end. Faith and the Spirit produce the fruit.

Can you tell the different between save and posses eternal life?
Faith can produce anything. Holy spirit produce the fruit but if one don't have faith, Holy spirit not willing to produce fruit through this person.

Faith cause person to abide to the vine and than the vine produce the fruit through the branch.

If you can find a text that denies John5:3 where baptism is entrance INTO Christ, as does Rom 6:3-4 describe, how can one be saved OUTSIDE of Christ.


Yes Baptism is entrance into Christ. Real baptism, as soon as you invite Christ to your heart you are baptized. Don't confuse water baptism and baptism in Father Son and Holy spirit.

to say the least your theology is very confused.

Don't exchange the sacrifice of Jesus by baptism ritual.

Baptism ritual can be artificial. For example, my neighbor went to baptism ritual because her fiance not going to marry her unless she willing to be baptize.



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let me repeat, water baptism is a symbol of real baptism in the name of Father Son and Holy Spirit.