Does water baptism save us

[mailmandan]

You have Eph 2 out of context. James said that his faith came out of his works. If his faith came out of his works they cannot be a product of it.

Works are the fruit of faith and not the other way around. In James 2:14, we read of one who "says" he has faith but has "no" works. This is not genuine faith, but a "bare profession of faith." So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an "empty profession of faith." James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to SHOW the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

A dead faith does not produce works in order to become a living faith, but because it's a living faith; just as a dead tree does not produce fruit in order to become a living tree, but because it's living tree. We must not put the cart before the horse.

please define Pisteuo.

The greek word pisteuō Strong's #4100 with Vines is defined - To think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in of the thing believed, have confidence in a moral or religious reference used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith, to entrust a thing to one, his fidelity to be intrusted with a thing.

To have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ).

The word "believe" can describe mere mental assent belief, as in (James 2:19), or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in (Acts 10:43; 16:31).

 

[SunnySoul]

Out of means, out of. James said, I will show you my faith out of my works. For faith to come out of works, works cannot be a product of faith. He said, faith without works is dead. How can dead faith produce works (or anything else for that matter)? The argument that says if you have faith it will produce works is refuted by James. Faith doesn't produce works, works are a part of faith. Faith without works is dead, faith with works is alive, the conclusion, works give life to faith. If works give life to faith then the cannot be the product of that faith.

You know what, it's really getting old this conversation...it's a deaf people talk...
Faith without works is dead..DUH because faith transforms you from inside out and you act upon it, you live it out !!

And for your information,
"out of" means
From within to the outside of
From a given condition
From an origin, source, or cause
In, especially intermittently in... so in other words...FROM

 

[SunnySoul]

It means if there are no works that translate your faith, you don't have faith...your faith is dead !

 

[Butch5]

Works are the fruit of faith and not the other way around. In James 2:14, we read of one who "says" he has faith but has "no" works. This is not genuine faith, but a "bare profession of faith." So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an "empty profession of faith." James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to SHOW the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.


A dead faith does not produce works in order to become a living faith, but because it's a living faith; just as a dead tree does not produce fruit in order to become a living tree, but because it's living tree. We must not put the cart before the horse.

James said, I will show you my faith out of my works. Faith without works is dead, therefore works give life to faith.

The greek word pisteuō Strong's #4100 with Vines is defined - To think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in of the thing believed, have confidence in a moral or religious reference used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith, to entrust a thing to one, his fidelity to be intrusted with a thing.

To have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ).

The word "believe" can describe mere mental assent belief, as in (James 2:19), or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in (Acts 10:43; 16:31).

How can one tell the difference?

 

[mailmandan]

James said, I will show you my faith out of my works.

Yes, James said I will SHOW you my faith by my works. SHOW, not establish. Big difference.

Faith without works is dead, therefore works give life to faith.

Works do not give life to faith, faith gives life to works (Ephesians 2:5-10) just as life flows through the root of the tree and gives life to the fruit and not the other way around. You have this backwards. Faith without works is dead because works show that our faith is alive. Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit demonstrates no root.

How can one tell the difference?

By the way it's used in context. Of course the word "believe" in James 2:19 does not mean the exact same thing in Acts 10:43; 16:31. The demons "believe" that "there is one God" but they do not "believe" "in Him/believe in the Lord Jesus Christ" and have not received the remission of sins/and are not saved. They do not trust in Jesus Christ for salvation.

 

[Butch5]

Yes, James said I will SHOW you my faith by my works. SHOW, not establish. Big difference.



Works do not give life to faith, faith gives life to works (Ephesians 2:5-10) just as life flows through the root of the tree and gives life to the fruit and not the other way around. You have this backwards. Faith without works is dead because works show that our faith is alive. Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit demonstrates no root.

It's not I who has it backwards. Works cannot be the fruit of faith because the works have to exist in order for faith to be alive and produce anything. Works are a part of faith. If red and yellow make orange you can't have orange without either one of them.

By the way it's used in context. Of course the word "believe" in James 2:19 does not mean the exact same thing in Acts 10:43; 16:31. The demons "believe" that "there is one God" but they do not "believe" "in Him/believe in the Lord Jesus Christ" and have not received the remission of sins/and are not saved. They do not trust in Jesus Christ for salvation.

I believe you're creating a false dichotomy. John said,

[SUP]30[/SUP] And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
[SUP]31[/SUP] But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

(Joh 20:30-31 KJV)

John said that believing that through believing Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, one might have life through His name.



[SUP]41[/SUP] And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ. {to speak...: or, to say that they knew him to be Christ}

(Luk 4:41 KJV)

Why are these demons not saved?

 

[posthuman]

Why are these demons not saved?

maybe you ought to be asking,
why did Jesus not baptize the demons, or preach to them?

 

[Linda70]

In Genesis 22:1-18, Abraham obeyed God and offered his son Isaac as a burnt offering. What caused Abraham to obey God? Was it Abraham's "works" (offering up his son Isaac), or was it Abraham's faith in God's promise that He would provide Himself a lamb for that sacrifice (Genesis 22:8-14)?

Abraham was saved by faith without works, but his salvation and his faith were EVIDENCED and DEMONSTRATED by his obedience. That is the meaning of the passage in James 2:21-24.

 

[Butch5]

You know what, it's really getting old this conversation...it's a deaf people talk...
Faith without works is dead..DUH because faith transforms you from inside out and you act upon it, you live it out !!

And for your information,
"out of" means
From within to the outside of
From a given condition
From an origin, source, or cause
In, especially intermittently in... so in other words...FROM

It's getting old because you guys keep trying to talk around what James said. If there are no works, then faith is dead. Dead faith cannot do anything. So, if faith is to be alive what must it have to give it life? According to James, it's works. So, works must be present before faith be alive and produce anything. This is easy if we're have no position to defend. If we have to have a car and gas to drive and without gas we cannot drive, then the car can't drive without gas.

 

[Jackson123]

One day I was standing by the street. It was in Semarang Indonesia. A men ride motor cycle approach me and ask direction to the city name Bandung.

I know how to get there and I give him direction. He appreciate and say thank you. And he follow the direction that I just give for about 200 feeds. Than he seem to stop at the cigarette shop to buy a cigarette. Upon his stop, he went to other direction. I wonder why so I talk to the shop owner which just my friend.

I ask if the man with the motor cycle ask him direction to Bandung. My friend say yes and he give the direction.

Than the men with motor cycle trust him and not trust me. that way he not follow my direction.

He follow my friend direction and he is new in town.

This story is only a analogy to explain that believe/faith mean follow the teaching to the one you have faith.

Faith in Jesus mean follow the teaching of Jesus and mean doing love work.

The work is self not the one who save us.

The good work is product of faith in Jesus.

so the producer is Jesus and He want us to have faith in Him before he produce the work.

 

[Butch5]

In Genesis 22:1-18, Abraham obeyed God and offered his son Isaac as a burnt offering. What caused Abraham to obey God? Was it Abraham's "works" (offering up his son Isaac), or was it Abraham's faith in God's promise that He would provide Himself a lamb for that sacrifice (Genesis 22:8-14)?

Abraham was saved by faith without works, but his salvation and his faith were EVIDENCED and DEMONSTRATED by his obedience. That is the meaning of the passage in James 2:21-24.

If you read that passage in context you'll find that Abraham received the promise based on obedience.

[SUP]11[/SUP] And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
[SUP]12[/SUP] And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
[SUP]13[/SUP] And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
[SUP]14[/SUP] And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen. {Jehovahjireh: that is, The Lord will see, or, provide}
[SUP]15[/SUP] And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
[SUP]16[/SUP] And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
[SUP]17[/SUP] That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; {shore: Heb. lip}
[SUP]18[/SUP] And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
(Gen 22:11-18 KJV)

 

[Linda70]

Butch5,

Question: Why did Abraham obey God's voice? IOW, what was the reason? I'm not asking about the RESULTS of obedience, but the CAUSE.

 

[Butch5]

Butch5,

Question: Why did Abraham obey God's voice? IOW, what was the reason? I'm not asking about the RESULTS of obedience, but the CAUSE.

Because he believed what God said.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Eg,

You keep making it sound like if one obeys Jesus command to be water baptized it is WORKS FOR SALVATION.

Sarah. Some people ARE SAYING THIS. If you had been reading this thread you would realise this.

It comes across that way. If that is NOT what then please explain what you are saying better

.

I am speaking against the false gospel of water baptisman regeneration (salvation by baptism)

By the way I DID NOT SAY THAT baptism is a work for salvation. (Take in a look in the mirror because you keep accusing others of saying things they did not say)

Yet people in here are saying one must be baptized to be saved, and their salvation is completed when they are baptized. Are you reading anything anyone is saying, or just me?

By the way if you actually would read,what I actually said is that it is faith first,which leads to works,by the way is the way the scriptures plainly put it. Faith in the Bible is ACTIVE not passive. Agape love is ACTIVE not passive. You can NOT find it in the Bible that those are PASSIVE. And if they are not active they are DEAD.

I have been saying the same, It does not mean you add a work BEFORE one is saved as quite a few in here are preaching

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm asking you. You said it happened to you, so what happened?

You did not listen?

God literallt baptized me into the death and burial of Christ, Where my sins were washed away (rom 6 with titus 3:5) And literally baptized me into the body of Christ (1 cor 12) He circumcised me with the circumcision made without hands, By baptizing me into his death (col 2)

No water involved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Do you actually read the passages of Scripture?

do you?

I have studied baptism for over 30 years now.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It means if there are no works that translate your faith, you don't have faith...your faith is dead !

Yes, and in the context of James, he was telling us to examine ourselves. Not to examine others. Are you doers or just hearers. etc.

How they twist that passage to support their own works based gospel is beyond me.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Because he believed what God said.

did he just believe, or did he actually have an assurance that God would keep his promise, or do what he said (true faith) there is a big difference. James is making this difference known in his passage

 

[Butch5]

do you?

I have studied baptism for over 30 years now.

Really? And what conclusions have you come to?

 

[Butch5]

did he just believe, or did he actually have an assurance that God would keep his promise, or do what he said (true faith) there is a big difference. James is making this difference known in his passage

No, there isn't. That's the false dichotomy that is created by those holding your position. If you believe there is a big difference please explain the difference to me.