Does water baptism save us

[SeaBass]

SeaBass,



actually we are both incorrect. The homilies of the Church fathers interpret this as the coming of the Holy Spirit indwelling. They tie it to vs 39 and the Gift of the Holy Spirit. Which is different than baptism.


Joel's prophecy did not deal with baptism but the Gift of the Holy Spirit. Still in effect.
Some Church Fathers indicate this deals with the disciples at Pentecost, but others add that it also applies to the next verse which is the judgment at the end of time. The latter half of the Joel 2:28 as quoted in Act 2:17-21, also is a prophesy of the last day, judgement day.

I do not agree with those so called "church fathers". Acts 1:1-5 and Acts 11:16 tell me the apostles were promised baptism with the HS [not baptism with fire] and the promise was fulfilled in Acts 2:1-5.

When the HS came upon the apostles and they spoke in tongues Peter said "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;.

Peter then quotes Joel's prophecy in verses 17-21. The apostles being (1) baptized with the HS and then (2) speaking in tongues, Acts 2:4, these two events Peter ties to Joel's prophecy.

Baptism with the HS, that was Joel's prophecy, that was promised by Christ to the apostles and no one else, was fulfilled in Acts 2:1-4. therby fulfilling Joe's prophecy bring that baptism to an end.

Acts 15:11, Jew and Gentile are saved in that "like manner" one way of being saved. The Jews in Acts 2, the eunuch, the jailer, Lydia, Simon, the Samaitians, and others in Acts did NOT receive baptism with the HS thereby eliminating thes baptism as being the like manner way Jews and Genitles are saved, not the one baptism of Eph 4:5.

 

[SeaBass]

Nothing so called about it. These are the corrections.

ADDITIONS not corrections.

 

[SeaBass]

Salvation is by grace. Grace precludes all other things in the matter of salvation. That said I do support water baptism after salvation as an act of obedience. Let us remember that new Christians are babes and not all are ready for water baptism many lacking the requisite knowledge of what water baptism really entails. As evidenced by the many differing understandings on the subject.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

So those NOT baptized remain sinful/disobedient/unrighteous towards Christ until they are baptized.

So how then can a sinful/disobedient/unrighteous person already have salvation?

 

[ChosenbyHim]

1 Cor 12:13 is water baptism.

Not it is not. That is a big blunder on your part.

1 Cor. 12:13 is spiritual baptism.

It is the Holy Spirit that places us into Jesus Christ.

Not water baptism.

Gal 3:14 does not say anything about baptism with the Holy Spirit

Galatians 3:14

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


When does one receive the promise of the Spirit? At the moment of conversion:



Ephesians 1:11-14

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 in whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.



It is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit which places us into Jesus Christ.

Eph 1:13 does not say anything about baptism with the Holy Spirit

Baptism of the Holy Ghost takes place at the moment of salvation.


1 Corinthians 12:13

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Baptism with the Holy Spirit has not been promised to anyone today.

Wrong again.


The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is promised today to those who will receive Christ as their Lord and Saviour (1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:14 & Eph. 1:13).

 

[notuptome]

So those NOT baptized remain sinful/disobedient/unrighteous towards Christ until they are baptized.

So how then can a sinful/disobedient/unrighteous person already have salvation?

Doesn't apply to you since you are self righteous. The preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are carnally minded.

For the rest of the world God imputes His righteousness to those who believe by grace through trusting in Christ. Wholly apart from works which we have done or have not done.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Cassian]

And what view is that?

Lots of them, but I have no context with the question.

 

[Alligator]

Not it is not. That is a big blunder on your part.

1 Cor. 12:13 is spiritual baptism.

It is the Holy Spirit that places us into Jesus Christ.

Not water baptism.






Galatians 3:14

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


When does one receive the promise of the Spirit? At the moment of conversion:



Ephesians 1:11-14

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 in whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.



It is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit which places us into Jesus Christ.







Baptism of the Holy Ghost takes place at the moment of salvation.


1 Corinthians 12:13

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.






Wrong again.


The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is promised today to those who will receive Christ as their Lord and Saviour (1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:14 & Eph. 1:13).

chosenbyHim, your main problem is that you are confusing the gift of the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:38, with baptism of the Holy Spirit Matt. 3:11. There is a big difference. After baptism, all Christians receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit was not promised to us today. Also, it can only be administered by Christ.

 

[SeaBass]

Doesn't apply to you since you are self righteous. The preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are carnally minded.

For the rest of the world God imputes His righteousness to those who believe by grace through trusting in Christ. Wholly apart from works which we have done or have not done.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

So Abel, Noah, Moses, Abraham, Paul faithfully obeyed God, that makes them all self-righteous?

God does not impute righeousness to the disobedient/unrighteous.

 

[Jackson123]

I do not agree with those so called "church fathers". Acts 1:1-5 and Acts 11:16 tell me the apostles were promised baptism with the HS [not baptism with fire] and the promise was fulfilled in Acts 2:1-5.

When the HS came upon the apostles and they spoke in tongues Peter said "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;.

Peter then quotes Joel's prophecy in verses 17-21. The apostles being (1) baptized with the HS and then (2) speaking in tongues, Acts 2:4, these two events Peter ties to Joel's prophecy.

Baptism with the HS, that was Joel's prophecy, that was promised by Christ to the apostles and no one else, was fulfilled in Acts 2:1-4. therby fulfilling Joe's prophecy bring that baptism to an end.

Acts 15:11, Jew and Gentile are saved in that "like manner" one way of being saved. The Jews in Acts 2, the eunuch, the jailer, Lydia, Simon, the Samaitians, and others in Acts did NOT receive baptism with the HS thereby eliminating thes baptism as being the like manner way Jews and Genitles are saved, not the one baptism of Eph 4:5.

Cornelius is not an apostle but he speak in tongue.

Act 10

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

 

[Alligator]

I'm not a 5 point Calvinist and I knew very little about John Calvin when I received Christ through faith so explain how the primary source of my beliefs come straight out of John Calvin's notebook? That sounds like a Roman Catholic sales pitch. I at one time had temporarily attended a church of Christ so I immediately caught on to your 6 step plan of salvation that you cited in one of your posts - 1. hear 2. believe 3. repent 4. confess 5. get baptized 6. remain faithful. This patched together mixed up false gospel is the result of poor semantics and flawed hermeneutics.



You keep saying that "born of water" is an allusion to water baptism and that the "washing of regeneration" is an allusion to water baptism. Explain to me how becoming born again and receiving the washing of regeneration equates to water baptism as the source or cause of being born again/regenerated yet there is no power in the water? Also explain to me why you make no reference to LIVING WATER when Jesus clearly does:

John 4:10 - 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.

John 4:14 - but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 7:37 - If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit..

Now compare that with "born of water and Spirit" and "washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit". Jesus connects living water/Holy Spirit/everlasting life, yet all you connect water to is water baptism. Why do you dismiss the words of Jesus here?





So there is no power in living water? (John 4:10,14; 7:37-39). What literally cleanses us on the inside? He who believes in me out of his heart will flow rivers of living water, but no cleansing is accomplished on the inside as the result of this?



So your definition of obedience here is obviously baptism. Notice in Galatians 3:26, Paul said - For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus (period). He didn't say through faith and water baptism. We are baptized by one Spirit into one body and made to drink into one Spirit. Compare with drink in (John 4:10,14; 7:37-39). In what sense are we water baptized into Christ? In the same sense that the Israelites were "baptized into Moses" (metaphorically) indicating their oneness, or solidarity, with him as their leader (1 Corinthians 10:2) just as through water baptism we indicate our onoeness, or solidarity with Christ as our Savior. Now does 1 Corinthians 10:2 teach that the Israelites were literally water baptized into the body of Moses? Absolutely not.

"Through His blood" (Colossians 1:14; Ephesians 1:7) is a reference, not limited to the fluid as if the blood has saving properties in it's chemistry and we literally contact it in the waters of baptism or the water somehow magically activates the blood, but is an expression pointing to the totality of Christ's atoning work as a sacrifice for sin. The word "cross" is used similarly to refer to the whole atoning work of Christ on the cross (1 Corinthians 1:18; Galatians 6:12,14; Ephesians 2:16). I understand you needing to accommodate the theology of your church but this is ridiculous!

Your arrogance is appalling. It is not "my plan" of salvation but God's. You call it flawed hermeneutics. Really. So you're telling me you don't have to repent to be saved in spite of what Luke said in Luke 13:3? So you're telling me that's you don't have to confess in spite of what Paul said in Romans 10:9-10?

And i don't know why you keep harping on "living" water, it's obviously figurative language and has nothing to do with water baptism. .



No, my definition of obedience INCLUDES baptism. It is one of many acts of obedience we must do.

No, THERE IS NO POWER IN THE WATER. Was there any power in the water that cured Naaman? He was cured because he obeyed God.

 

[mailmandan]

I never said Acts 11:4,14,15 negates Acts 10 but Acts 11 puts the events of Acts 10 "IN ORDER".

Here are the events that he puts in order - 5 I was in the city of Joppa praying; and in a trance I saw a vision, an object descending like a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came to me. 6 When I observed it intently and considered, I saw four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 7 And I heard a voice saying to me, 'Rise, Peter; kill and eat.' 8 But I said, 'Not so, Lord! For nothing common or unclean has at any time entered my mouth.' 9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, 'What God has cleansed you must not call common.' 10 Now this was done three times, and all were drawn up again into heaven. 11 At that very moment, three men stood before the house where I was, having been sent to me from Caesarea. 12 Then the Spirit told me to go with them, doubting nothing. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered the man's house. 13 And he told us how he had seen an angel standing in his house, who said to him, 'Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, 14 who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.' 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, 'John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?"

Acts 11 is describing the same event that took place in Acts 10. They received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Not by hearing nothing at all. Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also (Compare with Acts 2:38 - gift of the Holy Spirit). 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? CRYSTAL CLEAR.

Without Acts 11 you cannot tell me with any certainty that the word "while" in v44 means at the beginning, in the middle of speaking or at the end of speaking the HG fell upon them.

Acts 10:44 - While Peter was still speaking these words, (whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins - vs. 43) the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. With absolute certainty, this does not mean at the beginning. At the beginning means they heard nothing at all in contrast to heard the word. They obviously heard enough to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (compare with Acts 10:43) because that's when they received the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:17).

Of course, your bias wants the HG falling upon the Gentiles "while" Peter finished speaking. So the implication of the ORDER of events means the Gentiles had not yet heard those saving "words" (gospel) Acts 11:14 when the HG fell upon them.

No, it's your bias that wants the Holy Spirit falling upon the Gentiles before they heard anything at all to explain away that they heard the word, believed, received the Holy Spirit and were saved before water baptism. They obviously did hear those saving words (gospel) because they heard the word (vs. 44) they received the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44-47) when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 11:17). Compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe o​n the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Compare with Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. *Perfect Harmony.*

Furthermore, God sent Cornelius an angel to send for Peter, God gave Peter a vision telling him Gentiles were clean and God baptized the Gentiles with the HG. The purpose of God doing these things was to prove to the Jews that salvation was not meant just for them and the Jews understood that, Acts 11:18. Water baptism saves/remits sins Acts 2:38. In Acts 10:47 Peter says "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?"

The Jews certainly understood that salvation was not meant just for them when they witnessed the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues after they heard the word, believed, and were saved, all before water baptism. Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). *Perfect Harmony*

Any man that forbid water baptism for the Gentiles would be going against God's will in salvation going to the Gentiles. If any man forbid water baptism, the Gentiles would be saved anyway? Hardly.

Certain Jews may have wanted to forbid them from being baptized because of their unacceptance of the Gentiles, but Peter clearly states that SURELY NO ONE CAN REFUSE. The Gentiles were already saved before they were water baptized. They heard the word, they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues before water baptism. Their salvation was signified, yet not procured in the waters of baptism.

You posted: (blue)

Jn 3:5----------------spirit+++++++++++*living water>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1cor12:13----------spirit+++++++++++*Spirit baptized>>>>>>>in body
Tts 3"5---------Holy Ghost++++++*washing of reg/spiritual washing/living water>>>>>saved

Do I really need to comment on how you changed theses verses? Jesus said nothing about "living water" in Jn 3:5 nor did Paul say "spirit baptized" in 1 Cor 12:13. You simply added/made changes to these verses to get them to say what your bias wants them to say.

Jesus said nothing about baptism in John 3:5 and Paul said nothing about water in 1 Corinthians 12:13. It's you who changed these verses in order to make them fit your biased theology. What did Jesus say in John 4:10,14; 7:37-39? Notice the words drink(s), living water, never thirst, everlasting life, Spirit. Also notice the words drink into one Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12:13. You simply dismiss what Jesus said in John 4:10,14; 7:37-39 but it aligns perfectly with John 3:5 and 1 Corinthians 12:13.

You are trying to make all three verses say: spirit ++++++++spirit>>>>>>>saved

Living water++++++++Spirit>>>>>>>>saved is not spirit++++++++spirit>>>>>>>>saved.

YOU are being needlessly repetitious in how YOU are using spirit. I think the technical word you're guilty of is tautology..

Strawman argument.

Not only are you rewriting the 3 verses above, you now rewrite Mk 16;16 to say "he that believeth is saved" leaving baptism completely out.

I didn't rewrite these verses. You added words to change the meaning of those verses. I simply harmonized John 3:5; 4:10,14; 7:37-39; 1 Corinthians 12:13 together to reach the proper conclusion. Water, Living Water, Drink, Spirit.

The conjunction "and" joins "believeth" to "baptized" making them inseparable. So whatever "believeth" is necessary for, so is baptism. So if baptism is not necessary, neither is belief.

False. If they were inseparable in receiving salvation, then baptism would have been mentioned in the last half of the verse and also in John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26. Did Jesus forget to mention baptism here? f we look at this verse closely, we see that it is composed of two basic statements. 1—He who believes and is baptized will be saved. 2—He who does not believe will be condemned. Clearly, the determining factor regarding whether one is saved or condemned is whether or not he believes. In interpreting this passage correctly, it is important to realize that while it tells us something about believers who have been baptized (they shall be saved), it does not say anything about believers who have not been baptized. In order for this verse to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation, a third statement would have had to be included, that statement being: “He who believes and is not baptized will be condemned” or “He who is not baptized will be condemned.” But, of course, neither of these statements is found in the verse. Again, the omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief.

Acts 2:38 has both repentance and baptism BEFORE remission of sins.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical.

Acts 2:38-----------baptized/parenthetical>>>>>>>>>repentance>>>>>>for remission of sins
Acts 10:43---------believe>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>for remission of sins

In Acts 2:38, repentance is the means of receiving forgiveness and baptism is signified in repentance and forgiveness.

Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 10:43-47 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" *What happened to baptism in verse 43?

Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?" When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 15:8,9 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *What happened to baptism?

Again, faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). *Perfect Harmony*

Since there is just one way to be saved, then believing MUST include baptism.

False. Believing is not baptism and believing precedes baptism and we are saved when we believe. It's just that simple.

Eph 2:8--------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1Pet3:21-----baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>not the removal of filth from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not the part which saves you), but the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism). Read it all.

When comparing Acts 2:41 with v44, the ones said to have "believed" in v44 are the ones bpatized in v41. So "believed in v444 includes beign baptized. The language of v41 means one has not received the gospel word until he has been baptized.

False. They were baptized after they believed and were saved. Believing does not include baptism. Those who believe in Christ for salvation do so before, during and after baptism. You don't baptize unbelievers in order to make them believers. One receives the gospel when they believe (Romans 1:16). This is signified, yet not procured in baptism.

The eunuch, he jailer, Lydia: NONE were baptized with the Holy Spirit for water baptism is the "like manner" way, Acts 15:11 that Jew and Gentiles are saved.

But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they. Where do you see the word baptism in Acts 15:11? Read verses 7-9: 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. The gospel is hid to those who don't believe (2 Corinthians 4:3,4).

 

[SarahM777]

You are confusing water baptism with Holy Spirit baptism. Yes before water baptism you need to understand what it means and why we partake of it. Holy Spirit baptism occurs the instant we repent by changing what we believe. We change from believing in our righteousness and believe in the righteousness of Christ.

I think this is very clear when Philip tells the eunuch that if he believes he may receive water baptism. Does seem interesting that he may not he must receive water baptism.

I believe that every new Christian enters into Christ with only a very simple knowledge of what he or she is doing. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, righteousness and judgment. It is very difficult for the religious to get saved because they have tons of baggage to bring to the table.

When the Holy Spirit convinces the sinner that he is guilty before God and that he deserves eternal condemnation that is only a basic knowledge of theology. When the sinner is presented with Gods simple plan of salvation the Holy Spirit reveals to that man his need to receive Gods gracious offer.

Very little is of consequence when the matter of salvation is at point. Evolution, Calvinism, YET, none of these things matter only that salvation is needed and today is the day of salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Again how MUCH knowledge did many of the people that were BAPTIZED the very same day have? The only requirements were to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Even a little child can believe on the Lord.

How much theological knowledge is NEEDED to be saved,when Jesus plainly said UNLESS you become like a LITTLE CHILD you can not enter into the kingdom of heaven? Jesus is getting at the HEART not the head.

What has happened is that people have removed the FIRST step of obedience of what the Lord told us to do. See boiled down it's the same age old question Did God really say .....?

 

[lookuptoseeJesus]

Does Mowing lawns for dad give us inheritance?


Does taking out the garbage make a happy marriage?

Does Obedience for give sins?

MAny people have no clue about the relationship of being born again.

Baptism is a SYMPTOM of a healthy relationship

If you are born again really and truly you cannot wait to get baptised.

If you argue about it you arent realy in ove with Jesus.

Having a thread about it proves you just don't love him
just do it as he asked and praise the Lord

if you dont love Jesus, then dont get baptised, there is no need to be baptised at all if you are not born again, it wont do you any good anyway

how do you get born again?
You get o your knees and give your entire heart to JEsus in your closet, your life your heart your mind your soul and from then o work for Jesus 100 percent

and then when you open your Bible, and read
Go into all te world and baptize in the father and son and holy spirit
you say
YES!
and you run to do it TODAY

that is what happens when you are born again

if yo are not born again
get so
baptism is a sign of being born again

arguing about it plainly shows you are not born agin and do not have a love relationship at all and you are decieving yourself and you will not be going to heaven that way no matter what the once saved always saved liars say.

 

[mailmandan]

Your arrogance is appalling. It is not "my plan" of salvation but God's. You call it flawed hermeneutics. Really.

My arrogance? How ironic. Mental assent belief + self reformation + lip service confession + baptism + maintain salvation by works is not God's plan of salvation. Reversing the order of repentance and faith in receiving salvation for starters is flawed hermeneutics.

So you're telling me you don't have to repent to be saved in spite of what Luke said in Luke 13:3?

Of course we have to repent "change our mind" about our sinful position and need for Christ to save us and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ for salvation. Two sides to the same coin. You reverse this order of repentance and faith in receiving salvation in your 6 step formula. To the contrary we find the following verses: Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel. Acts 20:21 - "Repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ."

So you're telling me that's you don't have to confess in spite of what Paul said in Romans 10:9-10?

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead is not two separate steps to salvation but chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confesses is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

*1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply reciting the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit from a check list of steps as if they are simply magic words that automatically get us an entry pass through the door of eternal life is not unto salvation.

And i don't know why you keep harping on "living" water, it's obviously figurative language and has nothing to do with water baptism.

Living water is not water baptism and is connected with drink, Holy Spirit, everlasting life. This cannot be ignored (John 4:10,14; 7:37-39; 1 Corinthians 12:13).

No, my definition of obedience INCLUDES baptism. It is one of many acts of obedience we must do.

Acts of obedience which follow faith in Christ are WORKS. We are saved through faith, not works.

No, THERE IS NO POWER IN THE WATER. Was there any power in the water that cured Naaman? He was cured because he obeyed God.

We have another case that reveals one can be cured without any water. Read it in (Luke 5:12-15). No water is found here. What acts of obedience were performed here prior to being cured? When are we cured from our sinful position? When we believe the gospel. Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes.. We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16). That is when we are cured from our sin problem. This is signified, yet not procured in water baptism.

 

[Hoffco]

I can understand a Christian arguing again a wrong meaning for being baptized , that is legitimate. But the idea of arguing that you don't want to bother doing it , is sin, we are commanded to get baptized, and to refuse, may mean ,you are not saved, or just ignorant, and need help. Love Hoffco

 

[Alligator]

Your arrogance is appalling. It is not "my plan" of salvation but God's. You call it flawed hermeneutics. Really. So you're telling me you don't have to repent to be saved in spite of what Luke said in Luke 13:3? So you're telling me that's you don't have to confess in spite of what Paul said in Romans 10:9-10?

And i don't know why you keep harping on "living" water, it's obviously figurative language and has nothing to do with water baptism. .



No, my definition of obedience INCLUDES baptism. It is one of many acts of obedience we must do.

No, THERE IS NO POWER IN THE WATER. Was there any power in the water that cured Naaman? He was cured because he obeyed God.

My arrogance? How ironic. Mental assent belief + self reformation + lip service confession + baptism + maintain salvation by works is not God's plan of salvation. Reversing the order of repentance and faith in receiving salvation for starters is flawed hermeneutics.



Of course we have to repent "change our mind" about our sinful position and need for Christ to save us and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ for salvation. Two sides to the same coin. You reverse this order of repentance and faith in receiving salvation in your 6 step formula. To the contrary we find the following verses: Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel. Acts 20:21 - "Repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ."



Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead is not two separate steps to salvation but chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confesses is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

*1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply reciting the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit from a check list of steps as if they are simply magic words that automatically get us an entry pass through the door of eternal life is not unto salvation.



Living water is not water baptism and is connected with drink, Holy Spirit, everlasting life. This cannot be ignored (John 4:10,14; 7:37-39; 1 Corinthians 12:13).



Acts of obedience which follow faith in Christ are WORKS. We are saved through faith, not works.



We have another case that reveals one can be cured without any water. Read it in (Luke 5:12-15). No water is found here. What acts of obedience were performed here prior to being cured? When are we cured from our sinful position? When we believe the gospel. Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes.. We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16). That is when we are cured from our sin problem. This is signified, yet not procured in water baptism.

You know, after reading this and other post of yours I don't even think you know what you believe much with what I believe,. I'm not going to waste my time responding to you as I have been doing in the past because you will only come back with the same old responses and accusations. To hear you tell it, you are the only one on this board has it right. I don't have the time or the inclination to continue reading your excessively long post and respond to them when I know that your primary purpose is ridicule. Personally, I think you make a mockery of God's word. And I'll leave it at that.

 

[SeaBass]

Not it is not. That is a big blunder on your part.

1 Cor. 12:13 is spiritual baptism.

It is the Holy Spirit that places us into Jesus Christ.

Not water baptism.

jn 3:5----------------spirit ++++++++++water>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1cor12:13-----------spirit+++++++++++baptized>>>>>in the body

1 COr 12:13 is clearly water baptism. The same one water baptism (Eph 4:5) Paul baptized some of the Corinthians with in 1 Cor 1:14,16.

Galatians 3:14

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


When does one receive the promise of the Spirit? At the moment of conversion:



Ephesians 1:11-14

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 in whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.



It is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit which places us into Jesus Christ.







Baptism of the Holy Ghost takes place at the moment of salvation.

Since when does "promise of spirit through faith" mean "spirit baptism"? If you can make that phrase mean spirit baptism then anyone can make that phrase mean anything they want to.

In Gal 3:27 baptized literally means an immersion. Nothing in the context shows it is being used figuratively.


The Ephesians were water baptized. In Acts 19 Paul water baptized some of the Ephesians "in the name of the Lord" and this is the same water baptism "in the name of the Lord" of Acts 2:38 and Acts 10:47,48

1 Corinthians 12:13

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.






Wrong again.


The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is promised today to those who will receive Christ as their Lord and Saviour (1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:14 & Eph. 1:13).

None of these three verses you posted even speak of baptism with the HS much less promise anyone today with this baptism.



----as I alreasdy point out, FF Bruce shows proper exegesis is that a word is to be taken literally unless the context shows otherwise. So the baptism in Col 2:14; Gal 3:27; Rom 6:3-4; 1 COr 12:13 etc are all literal immersions in water for nonoe of those context showsbaptism being used figuratively.

----there is one baptism in effect which is Christ's human(disciple) administered water baptism of the great commission, the one water baptism Paul baptized Corinthians with 1 Cor 1:14,16. You are creating two baptisms contrary to Eph 4:5.

 

[SeaBass]

Here are the events that he puts in order - 5 I was in the city of Joppa praying; and in a trance I saw a vision, an object descending like a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came to me. 6 When I observed it intently and considered, I saw four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 7 And I heard a voice saying to me, 'Rise, Peter; kill and eat.' 8 But I said, 'Not so, Lord! For nothing common or unclean has at any time entered my mouth.' 9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, 'What God has cleansed you must not call common.' 10 Now this was done three times, and all were drawn up again into heaven. 11 At that very moment, three men stood before the house where I was, having been sent to me from Caesarea. 12 Then the Spirit told me to go with them, doubting nothing. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered the man's house. 13 And he told us how he had seen an angel standing in his house, who said to him, 'Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, 14 who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.' 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, 'John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?"

Acts 11 is describing the same event that took place in Acts 10. They received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Not by hearing nothing at all. Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also (Compare with Acts 2:38 - gift of the Holy Spirit). 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? CRYSTAL CLEAR.



Acts 10:44 - While Peter was still speaking these words, (whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins - vs. 43) the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. With absolute certainty, this does not mean at the beginning. At the beginning means they heard nothing at all in contrast to heard the word. They obviously heard enough to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (compare with Acts 10:43) because that's when they received the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:17).


No, it's your bias that wants the Holy Spirit falling upon the Gentiles before they heard anything at all to explain away that they heard the word, believed, received the Holy Spirit and were saved before water baptism. They obviously did hear those saving words (gospel) because they heard the word (vs. 44) they received the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44-47) when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 11:17). Compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe o​n the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Compare with Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. *Perfect Harmony.*



The Jews certainly understood that salvation was not meant just for them when they witnessed the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues after they heard the word, believed, and were saved, all before water baptism. Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). *Perfect Harmony*



Certain Jews may have wanted to forbid them from being baptized because of their unacceptance of the Gentiles, but Peter clearly states that SURELY NO ONE CAN REFUSE. The Gentiles were already saved before they were water baptized. They heard the word, they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues before water baptism. Their salvation was signified, yet not procured in the waters of baptism.


Jesus said nothing about baptism in John 3:5 and Paul said nothing about water in 1 Corinthians 12:13. It's you who changed these verses in order to make them fit your biased theology. What did Jesus say in John 4:10,14; 7:37-39? Notice the words drink(s), living water, never thirst, everlasting life, Spirit. Also notice the words drink into one Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12:13. You simply dismiss what Jesus said in John 4:10,14; 7:37-39 but it aligns perfectly with John 3:5 and 1 Corinthians 12:13.



Living water++++++++Spirit>>>>>>>>saved is not spirit++++++++spirit>>>>>>>>saved.



Strawman argument.



I didn't rewrite these verses. You added words to change the meaning of those verses. I simply harmonized John 3:5; 4:10,14; 7:37-39; 1 Corinthians 12:13 together to reach the proper conclusion. Water, Living Water, Drink, Spirit.

False. If they were inseparable in receiving salvation, then baptism would have been mentioned in the last half of the verse and also in John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26. Did Jesus forget to mention baptism here? f we look at this verse closely, we see that it is composed of two basic statements. 1—He who believes and is baptized will be saved. 2—He who does not believe will be condemned. Clearly, the determining factor regarding whether one is saved or condemned is whether or not he believes. In interpreting this passage correctly, it is important to realize that while it tells us something about believers who have been baptized (they shall be saved), it does not say anything about believers who have not been baptized. In order for this verse to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation, a third statement would have had to be included, that statement being: “He who believes and is not baptized will be condemned” or “He who is not baptized will be condemned.” But, of course, neither of these statements is found in the verse. Again, the omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief.



In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical.

Acts 2:38-----------baptized/parenthetical>>>>>>>>>repentance>>>>>>for remission of sins
Acts 10:43---------believe>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>for remission of sins

In Acts 2:38, repentance is the means of receiving forgiveness and baptism is signified in repentance and forgiveness.

Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 10:43-47 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" *What happened to baptism in verse 43?

Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?" When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 15:8,9 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *What happened to baptism?

Again, faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). *Perfect Harmony*



False. Believing is not baptism and believing precedes baptism and we are saved when we believe. It's just that simple.

Eph 2:8--------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1Pet3:21-----baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>not the removal of filth from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not the part which saves you), but the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism). Read it all.

False. They were baptized after they believed and were saved. Believing does not include baptism. Those who believe in Christ for salvation do so before, during and after baptism. You don't baptize unbelievers in order to make them believers. One receives the gospel when they believe (Romans 1:16). This is signified, yet not procured in baptism.

But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they. Where do you see the word baptism in Acts 15:11? Read verses 7-9: 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. The gospel is hid to those who don't believe (2 Corinthians 4:3,4).

Since in Acts 11 Peter puts the events in ORDER what does verse 15 mean then?

Acts 11:15 "And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning."

Peter just began speaking those saving words, and not told them yet what to believe.

"As I began to speak" is not my bias but the facts the bible gives.

Jesus did not say "living water" in Jn 3:5. You continue to go to a remote text and take the figurative use of water in Jn 4:10 and apply that figurative meaning to Jn 3:5 which is not proper exegesis.

Acts 2;38----repent++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>remission of sisn
Acts 3:19--- repent++++++++++++be converted>>>>sins blotted out
Acts 10:43------------believe>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>remission of sins

Since there is just one way to be saved/have remission of sins/sins blotted out, that can only mean that belief includes repetnace and baptism. Peter did not tell Conrelius to believe only but commanded him to be water baptized.

Also one has not been converted unless one has been water baptized, just as from Acts 2:41, one has not received the gospel message until one has been baptized.

1 Pet 3:21 Peter is talking about water baptism, else why would he say baptism is not washing dirt from the flesh if he was not talking about water, one takes a bath in water to wash dirt away.

OT type------saved by water
NT antitype--saved by water.

So Peter is talking about water baptism that saves

Eph 2:8------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1Pet3:21-----baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>saves

So a saving faith includes the water baptism of 1 pet 3:21.



Acts 2:41 says "they that gladly received his word were baptized:" Conversely those that rejected Peer's words rejected baptism.

Acts 2:44 "And all that believed were together"

So who are the ones that 'believed" in v44?

10 The ones that accepted his words and were baptized?
2) the ones that rejected his words and rejected baptism?

Obviously the ones in v44 that are said to have believed are the one accepting his words and baptized in v41. So we have the word "believed" in v44 including being baptized of v41.


The eunuch, the jailer, Lydia were all WATER baptized, the one baptism of Eph 4:5, Christ's human administered water baptism of the the great commission.

again,
Eph 2:8---faith>....saves
1Pet3:21-baptism>>>>saves


So "purifying their hearts by faith" includes water baptism.


Jn 3:5---------------spirit++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1 Cor 12:13-------spirit++++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>in the body
1Pet1:22----------spirit++++++++++obeying the truth>>>>>purified souls

So to get to purified hearts/souls requires water/baptized/obeying the truth

 

[notuptome]

Again how MUCH knowledge did many of the people that were BAPTIZED the very same day have? The only requirements were to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Even a little child can believe on the Lord.

The knowledge required is the knowledge of sin, the knowledge of righteousness, and the knowledge of judgment. All three brought about by the Holy Spirit acting on the word of God in the heart of the hearer.

How much theological knowledge is NEEDED to be saved,when Jesus plainly said UNLESS you become like a LITTLE CHILD you can not enter into the kingdom of heaven? Jesus is getting at the HEART not the head.

Nobody can trust as completely as a small child. Adults have difficulty trusting without holding back like a little child. This is what Jesus was teaching not to reduce the intellect to that of a child.

What has happened is that people have removed the FIRST step of obedience of what the Lord told us to do. See boiled down it's the same age old question Did God really say .....?

Each person takes the first step at the time that is right for them. I was saved as an adult and baptized as an adult. My children were saved as younger children but baptized later when they felt led of the Lord to do so. I do not condone pushing anyone into baptism until they feel it is right for them. I do believe that they must be genuinely saved before they are baptized but no pressure should be placed upon them.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SarahM777]

The knowledge required is the knowledge of sin, the knowledge of righteousness, and the knowledge of judgment. All three brought about by the Holy Spirit acting on the word of God in the heart of the hearer.Nobody can trust as completely as a small child. Adults have difficulty trusting without holding back like a little child. This is what Jesus was teaching not to reduce the intellect to that of a child.

Each person takes the first step at the time that is right for them. I was saved as an adult and baptized as an adult. My children were saved as younger children but baptized later when they felt led of the Lord to do so. I do not condone pushing anyone into baptism until they feel it is right for them. I do believe that they must be genuinely saved before they are baptized but no pressure should be placed upon them.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Back that up with scripture that says someone MUST have that kind of knowledge BEFORE being baptized. It's NOT THERE. That is a man made law. You are trying to make it something on an INTELLECTUAL basis. Taken to the next step,then on top of that then you RESTRICT PEOPLE from being who DO NOT and can NEVER have the mental capacity to understand those things in the way you do. If that is the restrictions you make then you MUST EXCLUDE people with down syndrome,autisum,etc etc etc because they do not have the same mental capacities that you,and most of them will never have. It's too bad how sad for them. Since when did God ever say that they are to be EXCLUDED from the kingdom or from baptism?

I never said that Jesus told us to reduce it to the INTELLECT of a child. Your missing the point because is showing quite clearly it is NOT AN INTELLECTUAL PURSUIT. Jesus quite plainly says let the LITTLE CHILDREN COME TO ME.