Does water baptism save us

[mailmandan]

I see you’ve begun your presentation with a straw man. I never claimed the ECF’s were inspired.

Apparently you missed my sarcasm and the point that I was making. The ECF's were not infallible so why do you treat them as if they were? I know you don't actually believe they were infallible but you act like what they say must be right because they were around 2000 years ago.

There are in fact history. You presented the opinions of someone living almost 2000 years after the fact. I presented historical evidence of those who were there.

So someone living 2000 years later has a lesser chance of understanding the truth than someone living 2000 years ago? Has the Bible changed in 2000 years? You presented fallible writings from fallible men.

There’s nothing in the text that requires a metaphorical interpretation. Therefore to do so imo is eisegesis. If you look at Ephesians 5:26 you’ll see that your interpretation doesn’t fit the text. The “word” in that passage is the Greek word “rhema” is means a spoken word or command. It’s not talking about the “word of God”, it’s talking about a command that was given. What command was given that pertains to the “Bath of water”?

The specific guidance we receive from the Holy Spirit at any given time can only be discerned by the general principles laid down in the Bible. That He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word. This is what Christ does (vs. 25) and is not a command for us to do, so my interpretation of the text fits just fine. Jesus is the living word. Acts 11:16 - Then I remembered the word "rhema" of the Lord, how He said, 'John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit. Is that a command for us to be baptized with the Holy Spirit? Did John baptize with the Holy Spirit? So is this spoken word from the inspired word or something else? Water baptism is merely the picture, not the reality.

[SUP]19[/SUP] "Go therefore[SUP]1 [/SUP]and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (Mat 28:19 NKJ)

Go and baptize them with the Holy Spirit? No. We have here a command from Christ to go and make disciples of all nations, and baptize them. However, it does not say here that baptism is necessary for salvation. The same command also includes the clause "teaching them to observe all things" that Christ has commanded them. Are we to assume that this is necessary to become saved as well? Luke 7:29 - When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they justified God/acknowledged God's justice, (signified by) having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, (signified by) not having been baptized by John. Water baptism did not make them magically make them become disciples of John but their decision to become disciples of John was signified in baptism. Just like becoming a disciple of Jesus is signified, yet not procured in the waters of baptism. Becoming a disciple of Jesus is a heart decision that is made prior to becoming water baptized.

It was Paul who wrote the letter to Titus and we can see from Paul's letter to the Philippians that he considered "works of righteousness" as keeping the law.

What about the moral aspect of the law? Are good works in general detached from the moral aspect of the law? Love God with all our heart, soul and mind and our neighbor as ourself is not included in keeping the law? (Matthew 22:37-40; Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Which good works could a Christian accomplish that are not included in loving God with all of our heart, mind and and our neighbor? You are trying to isolate "not saved by works" to an isolated part of the law then teach that we are saved by certain works that are not of the law. The RCC church teaches this as well. Where does Paul teach that?

This is another straw man. We are looking at what Paul means by the term works of righteousness. I’ve pointed out the Acts 15 and Gal 1-3 deal with this issue. However, Paul addresses it in Titus also.

You didn't answer my question. Is water baptism a work of righteousness or a work of unrighteousness? Was getting water baptized a part of Jesus fulfilling all righteousness or not? How is that a straw man?

[SUP]7[/SUP] For a bishop[SUP]1 [/SUP]must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money,
[SUP]8[/SUP] but hospitable, a lover of what is good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled,
[SUP]9[/SUP] holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.
[SUP]10[/SUP] For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision,
[SUP]11[/SUP] whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain.
[SUP]12[/SUP] One of them, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons."
[SUP]13[/SUP] This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, [SUP]14[/SUP] not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth. (Tit 1:7-14 NKJ)

Note Paul’s words they subvert whole households. Look at Luke’s statement in Acts 15.

[SUP]NKJ [/SUP]Acts 15:1 And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." (Act 15:1 NKJ)

[SUP]5[/SUP] But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses." (Act 15:5 NKJ)

So is the law of Moses simply circumcision? What about the moral aspect of the law? Are good works that Christians do detached from loving God with all our heart, soul and mind and our neighbor as ourself? You are trying to limit Paul's usage of the word "works" to specific works of the law and create a separate set of works that are detached from the moral aspect of the law and say these works save but those other works don't. This is the same flawed argument that I heard in the RCC.

James acknowledges that these people were causing problems among the Gentiles

[SUP]23[/SUP] They wrote this letter by them: The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings.
[SUP]24[/SUP] Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law[SUP]1 [/SUP]"-- to whom we gave no such commandment--
[SUP]25[/SUP] it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
(Act 15:23-25 NKJ)

This is the issue that Paul is addressing when speaking of works that don’t save.

So which works do save? Show me where Paul said we are "saved by these works" but "not saved by those works." Paul said not of works, not by works of righteousness which we have done, not according to our works, so Paul is not limiting not saved by works to a specific set of works that the Jews were hung up on in particular but includes any works which precede or follow saving faith in Christ.

Water baptism is part of faith in Christ.

No, faith is faith and water baptism is water baptism. We don't get water baptized in order to establish faith but because we have faith. You don't baptize unbelievers in order to make them believers, but because they are believers. You have a very difficult time making a distinction between the fruit of faith (good works) and the essence of faith (substance of things hoped for, evidence of things not seen).

No one is arguing that anyone is saved by works. The works argument is a false dichotomy.

You are arguing that water baptism and good works save, just not certain other works. Paul never once said saved by works.

The law was given to the Jews, not the Gentiles. However, the Jews believed that the inheritance came through the Law and some suggested that the Gentiles would need to keep the Law in order to partake of the inheritance. Paul argues against this idea. When he says it’s by faith and not by works he is arguing that it isn’t necessary for the Gentiles to keep the Law.

Again, Paul said not of works, not by works of righteousness which we have done, not according to our works. Faith is believing/trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation. Any acts of obedience which follow saving faith in Christ are works. Paul includes these works.

I’m not sure what your point is here.

The same point that I made once again in this post. Works are works. There is no saved by these works but not saved by those works. We are saved through faith, not works, not saved through faith and works. It's just that simple.

I find it interesting that you dismiss the ECF’s on baptismal regeneration yet post them in an attempt to prove faith alone.

I dismiss the ECF's on baptismal regeneration (if they all actually taught that) because it's a false doctrine. I wasn't actually trying to prove faith alone by using the ECF's. I was simply showing that salvation through faith in Christ alone and baptismal regeneration are mutually exclusive yet we see both teachings in various writings of the Fathers. It ultimately comes down to THUS SAITH THE LORD, not thus saith the Fathers.

Once again the argument is a straw man, no one is claiming that anyone is saved by works. And none of the passages you posted said that Baptism isn’t required. It’s the same argument from silence, pick a few verses of Scripture that speak of salvation but don’t mention baptism and say see, nothing about baptism so that means baptism isn’t necessary only this time it’s the ECF’s The bottom line that it’s an argument from silence which is a logical fallacy.

All acts of obedience which follow faith in Christ are works so which acts of obedience are you saying save us after faith and in addition to water baptism? I can see below that you have misinterpreted Hebrews 5:9 to teach salvation by works.

The Scriptures are the ultimate authority however, many don’t understand them because they try to impose a 21 century American mindset on a 1 century eastern book. Then there are who don’t use proper methods of reasoning and wind up in error.

People wind up in error because they don't rightly divide the word of truth and harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching their conclusions. I've seen many people distort passages of Scripture and then patch them together in order to create their so called gospel plan of salvation by works. The heart of the error is not about when and where we live. Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 2:14 that the natural man does not understand and in 2 Corinthians 4:3,4 he says the gospel is hid to those who are blinded in unbelief. That is the heart of the issue of why people end up in error when it comes to the gospel.

We can go to the Scriptures.

And harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching a proper conclusion.

[SUP]5[/SUP] So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You[SUP]1[/SUP]."
[SUP]6[/SUP] As He also says in another place: "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek[SUP]1[/SUP]";
[SUP]7[/SUP] who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear,
[SUP]8[/SUP] though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.
[SUP]9[/SUP] And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
[SUP]10[/SUP] called by God as High Priest "according to the order of Melchizedek,"
(Heb 5:5-10 NKJ)

Do you believe that the word "obey" here means that we are saved "by" obedience/works which follow saving faith in Christ? If that is the case, then how can you say that you have truly "obeyed" Him (in that sense) unless you have done it completely, 100%? Are you sinless and perfect? Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commandments and practicing righteousness (1 John 2:3; 3:10). In either sense, believers obey Him. Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16). Without faith, it is impossible to please God, so unbelievers do not keep His commandments or practice righteousness so they don't obey Him no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh (Matthew 7:22-23). In either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

Here the Scriptures refute the faith alone doctrine as it’s understood in modern American.

Actually this Scripture does not refute salvation by grace through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9). Believers obey Him and unbelievers do not obey Him. Plain and simple.

Obedience requires action, action is something one does thus it is work.

Saving faith is belief, trust, reliance in Jesus Christ as the all sufficient means of our salvation. Obedience which follows saving faith in Christ is works. Unbelief joined with salvation by works is not obedience.

 

[Cobus]

Question. What would baptism do if there was no cross?

Just what it did before there was a cross Kerry. The baptism of the Holy Spirit did MANY things God want done in HIS WAY long before the cross was there.

Want an example... 1 Sam 10:6 and 7.... And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.
1Sa 10:7 And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee.

For all to benifit... this is also a clear indication on the difference between water and spirit baptism.... I NEVER saw a different man or (amother man) rise from the WATER,.. but ALL who rise from the SPIRIT is ANOTHER MAN... (Jesus is the another man)...WOW it is so clear to see.

 

[SeaBass]

Seriously? You must be joking.



My primary purpose is for you to hear the word of the gospel and believe, not ridicule you.



Personally, I think you are thoroughly indoctrinated into church of Christ theology and refuse to seriously consider what I have shared with you. I already told you that I at one time had attended a church of Christ so I understand their mixed up 5-6 plan of salvation. "Faith" in the churches of Christ is understood as nothing more than "intellectual assent" or accepting the facts of the Christian faith. To them it is believing God’s historical testimony about Himself, Jesus Christ, and that of the rest of the Bible. Repentance on the other hand is understood as moral "self-reformation."

In regards to faith, those in the churches of Christ often fail to understand that there is a deeper, more substantive aspect of faith which is believing on Jesus Christ for eternal life, and most cannot distinguish between "mere intellectual belief or assent" from a personal faith that is "trusting exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation."

They will cite that even the devils "believe" (from James 2:19) in their sermons and will contend that even the "faith of devils" is the same as any other faith "except that the faith of devils lacks any moral or religious good works." This also explains why they have so much faith in "water and works."

Thus, their understanding gives rise to their reversal of the scriptural order of repentance and faith, as I already explained. This is the heart of the error of their 5-6 step plan of salvation. I also explained Romans 10:9,10 to you as well, which also gets misinterpreted by the church of Christ. No ridicule here, I am simply being straight forward with you. Please take some time to consider what I have shared with you. This is a critical topic in which salvation is at stake.

You have CONSISTENTLY rejected what the bible says in Acts 11:4,14,15 where Peter put in ORDER the events and as he BEGAN to speak those saving words the HG fell upon them, therefore you have no valid argument whatsoever.

 

[SeaBass]

I already refuted your arguments above. Please go back and take the time to thoroughly read post #1471.



No, saving faith is signified, but is not procured in water baptism. It's not the baptism itself that saves - not the removal of filth from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not the part which saves you), but the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism). Once again, READ IT ALL.

They that gladly received his word through repentance/faith were afterwards baptized, signifying their faith and conversion. In Luke 7:29 - When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they justified God/acknowledged God's justice, (signified by) having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, (signified by) not having been baptized by John. Baptism did not magically make them become disciples of John but their decision to become disciples of John was signified in baptism. Just like becoming a disciple of Jesus is signified, yet not procured in the waters of baptism.

They believed and were saved before they were water baptized. Acts 4:4 - However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. Acts 5:14 - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women. What happened to baptism? It followed after they became believers. You don't baptize unbelievers in order to make them believers, but because they are believers. Luke 8:12 - Believe and be saved. When did the Gentiles receive the Holy Spirit? When they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 11:17) before water baptism (Acts 10:43-47). Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Water baptism follows and signifies faith and conversion, but does not produce it.

No, they accepted his word through repentance/faith and this was signified in water baptism. Believing is not baptism and believing precedes water baptism and we are saved when we believe prior to water baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16). It's just that simple. When will you REPENT and BELIEVE the gospel?

Are you ready to accept the bible's teaching in Acts 11:4,14,15?

 

[notuptome]

Roger,

You're the one that does NOT understand. Water baptism is the first act and STEP OF FAITH,(Act of obedience,they are one and the same) Over and over and over again in the scriptures,God tells people something and with it goes a RESPONSE to what He told us,look at the snake on the pole,march around Jericho,go wash in the pool,etc etc. God acted ONCE a person RESPONDED to what He told them and NOT UNTIL they did. And again it is NOT baptism itself that saves but it is a FAITH that ACTS that saves,a faith that acts shows that one believes,a faith that does NOT act shows it does not believe nor does it LOVE the Lord. It is so simple a CHILD CAN UNDERSTAND IT.

What has been done is that now is that people only WANT to do mental gymnastics without having to do something in OBEDIENCE or stepping out in FAITH on what Jesus TOLD us to do.

Actually the first step is repentance. The obedience is to believe. Do we believe in the blood or in the water? Do we believe the word or do we trust in water baptism?

Water baptism is relevant to sanctification not to eternal salvation. I believe in water baptism but only after salvation not part of salvation.

Why is it that when we read the word baptism in the NT we automatically associate it with water? Do we forget that the NT was not written in English? Do we not make too much of water baptism? Is it because we lose sight of the context of to whom the passage was written and the language in which it was recorded?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

What context? I'm not aware of anything in Scripture that suggests people being baptize in doctrine.

If you look up the word baptize in this verse according to Strongs it is Baptizo which is to submerge like a sunken ship. If this were water they would drown. Since the verses are stressing teaching the apostles and disciple were to be submerging the hearers in the word of God which is doctrine.

Yes they would have taught water baptism after salvation but the stress is on teaching sound doctrine not water baptism.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SarahM777]

Actually the first step is repentance. The obedience is to believe. Do we believe in the blood or in the water? Do we believe the word or do we trust in water baptism?

Water baptism is relevant to sanctification not to eternal salvation. I believe in water baptism but only after salvation not part of salvation.

Why is it that when we read the word baptism in the NT we automatically associate it with water? Do we forget that the NT was not written in English? Do we not make too much of water baptism? Is it because we lose sight of the context of to whom the passage was written and the language in which it was recorded?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Sorry Roger,

But the Biblical pattern,God would speak and tell them something,IE look at the bronze snake,if they believed it they were to ACT on it. Belief can be nothing more then a head knowledge.

It is NOT a matter of believing in the water. It is believing in the ONE WHO TOLD US TO DO. The bronze snake COULD NOT HEAL. When Moses lifted his staff and spread his hands,it was not the staff that parted the sea. It was the ONE WHO told Moses to do so. But these things did NOT HAPPEN UNTIL they did so.

It is the fact that JESUS COMMANDED US TO BE BAPTIZED. What most want to do today is ask that age old question Did God really say.....?

 

[notuptome]

Sorry Roger,

But the Biblical pattern,God would speak and tell them something,IE look at the bronze snake,if they believed it they were to ACT on it. Belief can be nothing more then a head knowledge.

It is NOT a matter of believing in the water. It is believing in the ONE WHO TOLD US TO DO. The bronze snake COULD NOT HEAL. When Moses lifted his staff and spread his hands,it was not the staff that parted the sea. It was the ONE WHO told Moses to do so. But these things did NOT HAPPEN UNTIL they did so.

It is the fact that JESUS COMMANDED US TO BE BAPTIZED. What most want to do today is ask that age old question Did God really say.....?

In the example you cite it was necessary to believe before they could act. It still required that they believe Gods word and change, repent, of their beliefs and trust God to save them.

Jesus commanded us to believe in Him and the Father that sent Him. Examine the specific command to which you refer and determine if it is water or Spirit baptism that is in evidence.

Again water baptism is about sanctification not about salvation. One must first be saved before one can begin to be sanctified.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SarahM777]

In the example you cite it was necessary to believe before they could act. It still required that they believe Gods word and change, repent, of their beliefs and trust God to save them.

Jesus commanded us to believe in Him and the Father that sent Him. Examine the specific command to which you refer and determine if it is water or Spirit baptism that is in evidence.

Again water baptism is about sanctification not about salvation. One must first be saved before one can begin to be sanctified.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

OK If one were to follow your example then one COULD conclude that,when God told the priests to sacrifice the lambs and,then the high priest was to sprinkle the blood on the mercy,then because they believed God,their sins were actually atoned for BEFORE they actually sprinkled the blood on the mercy seat. They didn't really have to go through all that did they?

Did the apostles somehow get it wrong then when they baptized people in water? If it was baptism of the Holy Spirit,then what is the point of water baptism? Why did they do it then if it's nothing more then a ritual? And why doesn't Paul tell us NOT to water baptize after going through the Sabbath,the feasts,circumsicon etc????

 

[notuptome]

OK If one were to follow your example then one COULD conclude that,when God told the priests to sacrifice the lambs and,then the high priest was to sprinkle the blood on the mercy,then because they believed God,their sins were actually atoned for BEFORE they actually sprinkled the blood on the mercy seat. They didn't really have to go through all that did they?

Did the apostles somehow get it wrong then when they baptized people in water? If it was baptism of the Holy Spirit,then what is the point of water baptism? Why did they do it then if it's nothing more then a ritual? And why doesn't Paul tell us NOT to water baptize after going through the Sabbath,the feasts,circumsicon etc????

When the High Priest went into the inner sanctuary to sprinkle the blood he was not visible to the people, he was behind the curtain which surrounded the sanctuary. He had to wash himself, baptize in water, before he went in so as to make him clean. The people had to trust that the atonement was made on their behalf. These things are but a shadow of the things made clear in the NT.

Why water baptize? To identify with Christ. To declare and affirm publicly what was transacted between the sinner and his or her Savior. The significance of this is much more acute in Jewish society than in our modern Gentile society. Water baptism has more to do with testimony and sanctification than it ever could with salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[mailmandan]

You have CONSISTENTLY rejected what the bible says in Acts 11:4,14,15 where Peter put in ORDER the events and as he BEGAN to speak those saving words the HG fell upon them, therefore you have no valid argument whatsoever.

Actually it's you who has consistently rejected what the Bible says in Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?

Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?"

So obviously, began to speak can't mean, said nothing at all yet, because that would contradict, "still speaking these words," "Holy Spirit fell upon those who heard the word."

"gift of the Holy Spirit poured out on the Gentiles" when they "believed on the Lord Jesus Christ." Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Not by hearing nothing at all.

Also don't forget Acts 15:7 - And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *CRYSTAL CLEAR*

 

[mailmandan]

Are you ready to accept the bible's teaching in Acts 11:4,14,15?

I accept the Bible's teaching in Acts 11:4,14,15,16,17,18 and the correct interpretation is not in contradiction with Acts 10:43-47 or Acts 15:7-9. Are you ready to repent and BELIEVE the gospel?

 

[mailmandan]

Can one say they love the Lord without obedience? Can one say they are saved without obedience? Or does lack of obedience actually show one does not love the Lord and they are NOT SAVED? Didn't Jesus very plainly say that If we love Him we will keep and OBEY His commands? Didn't Jesus command water baptism?

Baptism put it in it's proper place is subsequent to saving faith as all rites and works must be. Baptism is for believers, and believers are already saved (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5 etc..). Salvation is not by rites or religious works, or good works. This does not remove acts of obedience/good works from the Christian life, it just puts them in their proper place, subsequent to regeneration and justification.

Faith is the root and acts of obedience/good works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit would demonstrate no root.

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

[SarahM777]

When the High Priest went into the inner sanctuary to sprinkle the blood he was not visible to the people, he was behind the curtain which surrounded the sanctuary. He had to wash himself, baptize in water, before he went in so as to make him clean. The people had to trust that the atonement was made on their behalf. These things are but a shadow of the things made clear in the NT.

Why water baptize? To identify with Christ. To declare and affirm publicly what was transacted between the sinner and his or her Savior. The significance of this is much more acute in Jewish society than in our modern Gentile society. Water baptism has more to do with testimony and sanctification than it ever could with salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Go back and READ WHAT I SAID and try answering it again. What you are not getting is that over and over and over again in the Bible when God told the people something,first was to believe and then TO ACT UPON IT. To be baptized is to PUT FAITH INTO ACTION.

 

[Kerry]

If your faith is not in the cross its just a bath.

 

[mailmandan]

If your faith is not in the cross its just a bath.

Amen! If your faith is not in the cross then faith is merely mental assent belief, repentance is merely self reformation, confession is merely lip service and baptism is merely a bath.

 

[Alligator]

Are you ready to accept the bible's teaching in Acts 11:4,14,15?

I accept the Bible's teaching in Acts 11:4,14,15,16,17,18 and the correct interpretation is not in contradiction with Acts 10:43-47 or Acts 15:7-9. Are you ready to repent and BELIEVE the gospel?

L

When are you going to drop this nonsense about repentance coming before faith in God's plan of salvation?
I realize that it is a popular trend these days but it is nothing more than a ploy to get around baptism. Since you believe in faith alone, you had to change the order of events otherwise you would have someone saved who had not yet repented.
And why would a nonbeliever repent anyway? He doesn't know what to repent of nor does he have motivation to repent.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Baptism put it in it's proper place is subsequent to saving faith as all rites and works must be. Baptism is for believers, and believers are already saved (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5 etc..). Salvation is not by rites or religious works, or good works. This does not remove acts of obedience/good works from the Christian life, it just puts them in their proper place, subsequent to regeneration and justification.

Faith is the root and acts of obedience/good works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit would demonstrate no root.

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

There is one salvific baptism, Eph 4:5 (it must be remembered though baptism alone will not save you (nothing alone will save you)), now Peter knew this, if baptism of the Holy Spirit was the "one baptism" then Peter sinned preaching another Gospel when he told Cornelius to be baptized in water, so show me where it says ANY baptism in water is not salvific and is a show of faith. book chapter verse.

 

[Cobus]

There is no PLOY around baptism, Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not a man thing, it is a God thing. Water baptism is nothing! Not man nor God thing, absolutely NOTHING! It cannot save, and for me it says NOTHING but a few people getting wet together.

I see the SAME people go dry into the water, and the SAME people come out wet from the water... What changed but the wetness of the people? NOTHING!

However.... the NEW man after the Spirit baptism is a COMPLETE NEW CREATION IN CHRIST... Wow! That I see a difference...

Water baptism means NOTHING to God and NOTHING to me. Sorry if it does not sit well with you, but then you are not my Lord, so I am not here to please men, but to serve God with Truth....

There is only ONE BAPTISM... the Baptism of the Holy Spirit of God BY GOD!

 

[Alligator]

There is no PLOY around baptism, Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not a man thing, it is a God thing. Water baptism is nothing! Not man nor God thing, absolutely NOTHING! It cannot save, and for me it says NOTHING but a few people getting wet together.

I see the SAME people go dry into the water, and the SAME people come out wet from the water... What changed but the wetness of the people? NOTHING!

However.... the NEW man after the Spirit baptism is a COMPLETE NEW CREATION IN CHRIST... Wow! That I see a difference...

Water baptism means NOTHING to God and NOTHING to me. Sorry if it does not sit well with you, but then you are not my Lord, so I am not here to please men, but to serve God with Truth....

There is only ONE BAPTISM... the Baptism of the Holy Spirit of God BY GOD!

I would be very careful about how I treated God's word with respect to baptism . Prove to me by scripture that the one baptism is Holy Spirit baptism.