Is the Rapture Secret?

[jb]

Got a number for non-existent?

Infinity....?

EDIT: someone beat me to it I see!

 

[jb]

Every one will see Jesus when He comes back.
But the rapture isn't the second coming of Jesus.

So the rapture takes places at the 2nd Coming and the Second Coming is really the 3rd Coming?

 

[Larry_Stotle]

when you see german troups in jersulam, run for the hills

Good idea, it will be overkrauted.

 

[Atwood]

The transformation and the rapture happen in a twinkling of an eye, At the same time.
See 1 Cor 15: 51--52, With 1 Thess 4: 14--17.

1975:

Where does the Bible say that the Rapture happens in a twinkling of an eye. Please quote your verses and show your proof.

Neither of those passages says that the Rapture happens in a twinkling. Neither do those verses say the twinkling transformation is also the time it takes for the Rapture to occur. If you have scripture that says that the time it takes for the transformation is the time it takes to rapture, please quote your text. I haven't found it yet.

"but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,

It doesn't say that the Rapture happens in a twinkling.
Neither does it define the time interval of the trip to Heaven as the same time interval as that of the transformation.

 

[Atwood]

So the rapture takes places at the 2nd Coming and the Second Coming is really the 3rd Coming?

How do you count all the "comings of the Lord"? He had a coming to earth, a coming to Egypt, a coming to Galilee, several comings after the resurrection, a coming in the air for the Church, not to the earth, a coming to the earth to sort it out.

The coming for the Church is one.
The comings to earth are two.

BTW, where are you Bible passages that speak about "the second coming"?

 

[Atwood]

Matthew 24:30-36
"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

It says they will see him

But who is this "they"? This "they" is not identified with the ekklesia. Paul saw the Lord Jesus as did Stephen. "Seeing the Lord Jesus" is not an event limited to the Rapture.

The are gathered from the winds, not into the winds. There is no catching up nor any meeting in the air here. The elect are gathered to enter the Millennial Kingdom. The wicked are taken in judgment.

The issue started was that of the secrecy or openness of the rapture. Not the secrecy or openness of Christ in his coming. BTW, if you have a verse that tells us how secret or how open Christ's appearance is at the Rapture, I would like to consider that also. I recall that on Damascus Road the Lord Jesus was visible to Paul, but those around him apparently only heard sound and not speech as Paul did. So that appearance was completely evident to Paul, but only somewhat to the others.

 

[jag1977]

It seems common for people to deny the rapture (though it is a Bible fact harpagesometha = we shall be raptured in 1 th 4:17) and even to sneer at it as the secret rapture theory. IMHO, the secrecy vs visibility debate matters little, and has nothing to do with being pre or post trib. (Maybe for a preterist it is figurative and visible only in people's imaginations? It is a prophecy of persons getting excited in revival meetings & jumping pews???)

IMHO, the rapture might be rated on a scale of 0-10, whereby
0 = nobody sees it; not even the raptured see themselves going up.
5 = half of the people see it.
10 = everybody sees it, even unsaved persons locked in the restroom (without window or TV), and you can imagine the visibility scale of 1,2,3,4, 6,7, 8, 9.

My guess is that the secrecy/visibility lies somewhere in 1-9, but I don't know.

Does anyone have a verse for the visibility rating or secrecy rating?
Does any verse say it will be secret?

Forget everything you have ever heard or read. You have heard that we have been given a destination with the Lord and I am truly waiting for you to arrive at the one place you have tranquility.

 

[Atwood]

If you are referring to a resurrection at the return of Christ then I am in agreement. This will happen in the twinkling of an eye but if you are referring to the false doctrine of the "rapture" that was originated by Fransisco Ribera in 1585-90 and then popularized by John Nelson Darby circa 1830, then that is hogwash.

Afternoon namesake of Darby -- were you named for him? LOL.

The Rapture is not hogwash, but clear revelation of God. harpagesometha. The Pre-Trib Rapture theory is IMHO, just the best explanation given of all the relevant scripture. Christians disagree on the timing of the Rapture, but the Rapture itself is in 1 Thes 4:17, a Bible fact. It is at the end of 1 Thes 4, then followed by the Day of the Lord / Tribulation at the start of 1 Thes 5.

Various false theories have been put forth about the origin of the pre-trib rapture theory, claiming a crazy Scottish girl or the Jesuits.

The POV that the Church does not go through the Trib is in Shepherd of Hermas. And the Pre-trib rapture is found in a document attributed to Ephraem the Syrian, dated 4th century AD -- some claim it was not truly written Ephraem, but by someone else, possibly as late as 8th century AD. But for our purposes that makes no difference; for this document establishes that long before any Jesuits or Ribera, the theory existed.

For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins" (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, perhaps by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373).

But the issue is not who had the theory first, the issue is, does this theory explain the eschatological passages of the Bible better than other theories.

 

[quickened77]

John 6

1. [39] And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
2. [40] And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
3. [44] No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
4. [54] Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11
23] Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
[24] Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Last day = no pre trib rapture no 1000 future years .

 

[Atwood]

?????

Rev 5:9 And they sung a song new, saying: Worthy thou art to receive the scroll, and to open the seals of it; because thou wast slain, and didst buy back for the God us with the blood of thee out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation;

Is the martyrdom only about Israel?

Rev 6:9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those having been killed because of the word of the God, and because of the testimony which they held;
Rev 6:10 and they cried with a voice great, saying: How long, the sovereign the holy one and true one, not thou judgest and avengest the blood of us from those dwelling on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And was given to them a robe white, and it was said to them, that they should rest yet a time, till should be completed also the fellow-slaves of them and the brethren of them, those being about to be killed as even they.

Is this only about Israel?

Rev 6:12 And I saw when he opened the seal the sixth, and an earthquake great was, and the sun black became as sackcloth of hair, and the moon whole became as blood,
Rev 6:13 and the stars of the heaven fell to the earth, as a fig-tree casts the untimely figs of her by a wind great being shaken,
Rev 6:14 and the heaven was separated from as a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island out of the places of themselves were moved;
Rev 6:15 and the kings of the earth and the great ones and the commanders and the rich ones and the strong ones, and every bondman and every freeman hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
Rev 6:16 and they say to the mountains and to the rocks: Fall you on us, and hide you us from face of the one sitting on the throne, and from the wrath of the lamb;
Rev 6:17 because came the day the great of the wrath of him; and who is able to stand?

Only Israel?

Rev 7:9 After these things I saw, and lo a crowd great, which to have numbered him no one was able, out of every nation and of tribes and of peoples and of tongues, standing in presence of the throne and in presence of the lamb, having been clothed robes white, and palms in the hands of them;

I think Christ summed it up here...

Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The only occurrence that fits this description is the Great Tribulation.

Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Rev 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Israel? or the church?

Ooops, got a little trigger happy there and hit reply before I was finished. Anyhoo, tie in Rev 3:10 with this...

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Protection in a place of safety not a rapture to heaven.

John, there simply is no reference to the ekklesia in Revelation 6-18. The term does not occur in Rev 12. The woman is evidently Israel. But whether the woman is Israel or not, there is no ref to the Church. In Rev 6-18 it deals with Israel and the Gentile nations -- no Church ever.

It find it odd that you quote the letter to the Church of Philadelphia and say:

I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The only occurrence that fits this description is the Great Tribulation.

Don't you see that the Church of Philadelphia is guaranteed not to go through the Tribulation there?

It is strange how you quote passages which say nothing about the church and then ask rhetorical questions, as if one has to see the Church there. Certainly the Bible has saints and martyrs who were never part of the Church. The Church was yet future in Mat 16: "I will build My Church."

 

[Atwood]

The rapture is strictly a church event. It does not have any place in the prophecy given to Israel regarding the end times. This is why it should be place at the very beginning of the tribulation period. the tribulation is all about Israel and not the church.

If you are not a born again person you have nothing in the rapture.

The world will notice after the fact that the rapture has occurred. They will explain it as alien abduction of something like that but God has said that they will receive strong delusion that they will believe the lie.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

NotUpToMe:

Roger, I don't rule out your idea.

But my best guess is that there will be a nuclear war at the time of the Rapture with the destruction of the USA, which is not mentioned in prophecy. Nuclear bombs could cause people to deny that the Rapture took place. Such a war would also explain why Revelation 6-18 looks low tech, not high tech. Nuclear bombs could send the world back to the Dark Ages, with swords and horses as weapons of war. And nuclear bombs (I think) can erase computers -- imagine every electronic device wiped out by the magnetic impulse; cars won't work, the electric grid would go down, bank accounts would be gone; governmental data would vanish.

I am just speculating.

 

[jb]

The coming for the Church is one.
The comings to earth are two.

Yes, that's my question, 1 coming for the Church and 2 comings to earth, so 3 "comings" then?

I'm thoroughly confused now, surely you are too?

Is there a 4th coming by any chance?

Eshatology...what a wonderful subject, you can nearly make it mean what you like!

 

[notuptome]

Yes, that's my question, 1 coming for the Church and 2 comings to earth, so 3 "comings" then?

I'm thoroughly confused now, surely you are too?

Is there a 4th coming by any chance?

Christ has two advents. One is past and Israel awaits the second. The church looks for the rapture but the church goes up to meet the Lord not the Lord coming down to the earth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[jb]

Christ has two advents. One is past and Israel awaits the second. The church looks for the rapture but the church goes up to meet the Lord not the Lord coming down to the earth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Roger, dear brother you left out the important part!

"Eshatology...what a wonderful subject, you can nearly make it mean what you like!"

Just winding you up!

 

[notuptome]

?????

Rev 5:9 And they sung a song new, saying: Worthy thou art to receive the scroll, and to open the seals of it; because thou wast slain, and didst buy back for the God us with the blood of thee out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation;

Is the martyrdom only about Israel?

Rev 6:9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those having been killed because of the word of the God, and because of the testimony which they held;
Rev 6:10 and they cried with a voice great, saying: How long, the sovereign the holy one and true one, not thou judgest and avengest the blood of us from those dwelling on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And was given to them a robe white, and it was said to them, that they should rest yet a time, till should be completed also the fellow-slaves of them and the brethren of them, those being about to be killed as even they.

Is this only about Israel?

Rev 6:12 And I saw when he opened the seal the sixth, and an earthquake great was, and the sun black became as sackcloth of hair, and the moon whole became as blood,
Rev 6:13 and the stars of the heaven fell to the earth, as a fig-tree casts the untimely figs of her by a wind great being shaken,
Rev 6:14 and the heaven was separated from as a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island out of the places of themselves were moved;
Rev 6:15 and the kings of the earth and the great ones and the commanders and the rich ones and the strong ones, and every bondman and every freeman hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
Rev 6:16 and they say to the mountains and to the rocks: Fall you on us, and hide you us from face of the one sitting on the throne, and from the wrath of the lamb;
Rev 6:17 because came the day the great of the wrath of him; and who is able to stand?

Only Israel?

Rev 7:9 After these things I saw, and lo a crowd great, which to have numbered him no one was able, out of every nation and of tribes and of peoples and of tongues, standing in presence of the throne and in presence of the lamb, having been clothed robes white, and palms in the hands of them;

I think Christ summed it up here...

Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The only occurrence that fits this description is the Great Tribulation.

Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Rev 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Israel? or the church?

Ooops, got a little trigger happy there and hit reply before I was finished. Anyhoo, tie in Rev 3:10 with this...

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Protection in a place of safety not a rapture to heaven.

You are looking in the wrong place and are confused at what you see. The tribulation and Israel's part therein do not involve the rapture of the church.

When Christ returns at the close of the tribulation He will return to Jerusalem. When Christ comes for His bride the church He comes in the clouds. The clouds are not a specific location like Jerusalem. Christ when He returns for His church does not defeat His enemies but removes His bride from the presence of His enemies. When Christ returns to rescue Israel He will destroy His enemies and He will set up His kingdom on the earth for 1000 years.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Roger, dear brother you left out the important part!

"Eshatology...what a wonderful subject, you can nearly make it mean what you like!"

Just winding you up!

There is a bunch that do that with soteriology.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Ihsomiet]

I don't think it is a secret. The bible says we'll disappear in the blink of an eye. All Christians have the light of the life of Christ. Take it from another perspective... as christians, we disappear in the speed of light. Blink!

 

[ChefManna]

If I'm not mistaken, psalms refers to it saying that countless will see it happen and believe in an instant. Also, we might not be able to predict the exact moment it happens but, Jesus DID say He has foretold ALL things, and that nothing is hidden which will not be revealed. We are constantly told to WATCH. We are told, "If thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee like a thief in the night and catch ye unawares."

I believe this refers to the pre-trib rapture, as the one post trib is pretty evident. Since all important days in Jewish history all took place on feast days, it stands to reason that the rapture would occur during one of the few feast dates reserved for the church or, more specifically....The Bride of Christ. Song of Solomon gives us some great hints as to when the Brides Groom may come to retrieve His Bride. Possibly Pentecost?

 

[ChefManna]

John, I think that in Revelation, John makes it quite clear that the rapture is an actual series of events. Based on his writings, he is caught up right BEFORE the tribulation begins. He witnesses countless saints in Heaven as the seals are broken one by one. I believe the pre-trib rapture is exclusively for the Bride of Christ....those who truly love Him and have kept His commands. The rest......Laodicians 'Luke warmers' will face the trib. There are several parallels in Genesis that also hint to this. Jesus was considered the 2nd Adam. And, just as the bride of Adam was taken from the body of Adam, I think the Bride of Christ will be taken from the body of Christ (church).

 

[Osiyo]

What debating if those that are left behind we be able to see the rapture? Come on people, what about those that are dying without Christ, should we not "preach the gospel"? No, we talk about of such importance. We listen to the god of this world and not to the God in us? How can that be? We have God's Word, we are "sealed" with the Spirit of God, God with us! And still here we are barking up the wrong tree? Something here stinks to high heaven.

But to address the question just to make clear what God has to say about this and what it means for us or them. First off, can we see the "twinkling of the eye", what are we talking is speed, am Millie-second or so, maybe but then the blood bought are gone, and the only ones that will notice anything will be those that are left behind. Eyes open here, and they will notice because this will be a worldwide disappearance of so many people out of every nation, every tribe, every tongue and every family, and they will notice it, Absolute chaos across the entire world, and the antichrist will appear with smooth talking and persuasion and that will start the ball rolling, We the blood bought will be out of here (Revelation 4:1) come up here then all these things will happen next. Read and show yourself equipped for the battle here and now in our homes, in our neighborhoods, in our countries, in our nations, in the world, and people the battle prize is human souls, either won to Christ or lost forever, and we all will one day stand before Him that has fire in His eyes, and will be asked and we will give an account of what we did and how we did it, in what spirit did we do it?