It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

[SeaBass]

Does God desire, want all to be saved? Will God force it? If god did then all would be saved, and no free choice to choose would be in place, and we would just be puppets, Go figure, what is up with this great contrast? No works can't be saved, works one thinks they can and can't proven through out the first Testament, and especially in the second before the cross of Christ in Matthew 19 about the rich man who obeyed all the Law from childhood on and knew he was not perfect, wanted to be and could not give up this world to be perfect. Can any of you?
What a great congruity, be perfect yet can't? Be perfect yet can't
So this verse is either true or false God makes you perfect in trusting God or not?

Colossians 1:22 in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

So either you are made this by belief or you are not?
Maybe time to give up and enter his courts with thanksgiving and praise? Can anyone say Thank you Father and Son, Thank you from the bottom of their heart in appreciation?

God desires all men be saved showing God's prescriptive will in what He wishes man will do yet most will not do what God prescriptively wills for man to do for God gave man free will.

Man therefore has free will and must use that free will to obey Christ to be saved, Heb 5:9 for God has vengeance upon those that "obey not", 2 Thess 1:8.
So even though God may not get from man what His prescriptive will desires man to do, man will be punished for not doing what God wished him to do.

 

[SeaBass]

Jude 1:1 does not say what you said here:



Where is the verse that says that ?

Jude 1:1 refers to the GROUP Christian being "preserved", not any individual being unconditionally preserved.

 

[svedbygrace]

seabass

God desires all men be saved showing God's prescriptive will in what He wishes man will do yet most will not do what God prescriptively wills for man to do for God gave man free will.

No problem, since what God desires He does it Job 23:13

13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

Now if all whom He desires to be saved does not be saved as He desires, you are calling Job 23:13 a lie !

 

[svedbygrace]

Jude 1:1 refers to the GROUP Christian being "preserved", not any individual being unconditionally preserved.

You said this in post 687:

The group Christian/Saint is preserved but not the individual is not unconditionally preserved separate and apart from this group. So if I fall from this preserved GROUP, I will no longer be preserved/saved.

I asked you to show the scripture that states that ? Jude 1:1 does not say that at all !

 

[SeaBass]

SeaBass,
the passage clearly addresses persons sanctified, preserved, and called.

You say, "no individual is unconditionally preserved outside of Christ before the world began by a random choice of God."

As you must know (?), election and predestination are Bible facts (as for example Ephesians 1 and Romans 9). Now even born-again Christians don't agree on how to interpret election; neither do we have to understand that and agree with each other on it to be saved.

I don't recall anyone claiming that God's choice was random. Scripture indicates, elect according to foreknowledge. And Christians don't agree on what that means either.

Nonetheless, the doctrine of election brings humility to the believer. We believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and we receive salvation. It may be later that we learn we were elect. I don't know scripture that really tells us why one is elect and not another. I do know that the gospel is to whosoever will -- and that one can find out for sure one is elect by trusting Christ as Savior.

End of Rom 8:

And we know that to them who love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things?
Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God who justifies;
who is he who condemns?
It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For your sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Jude 1:1 "Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:


The pronoun "them" refers to those that are Christians.

Yes, predestination is taught in the bible but the perversion of Calvinistic predestination is NOT taught in the bible.

God foreknew and predestined a group that would be called Christian and anyone that obeys the gospel are then placed in this foreknown, predestined group. Nowhere did God predestine certain individual unconditionally APART from this group.

One can fall away from this foreknown/predestined group and become lost for being OUTSIDE of the group. They can repent and return to this foreknown/predestined group have have the promise of salvation again. The individual outside of the group is nothing, is lost.

 

[svedbygrace]

1 Pet 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

They are kept through faith, not kept unconditionally so if one casts aside his faith he will become lost.

No they are kept by the power of God through Faith ! It does not read they are kept by Faith through the power of God ! You twist scripture. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 !

 

[Atwood]

WHY GRASP AT STRAWS TO DENY REAL SALVATION?

Is that what is necessary to maintain your righteousness, instead of coming to the Lord with God be merciful to me a sinner?

Some seem very invested in denying the security of a man who is securely saved. So we see verses claimed as proving that Christians who trusted Christ as SAvior somehow losing "salvation," which must be redefined as a chance at eternal life. Verses are claimed that don't say salvation, eternal life, or believe in them. So instead of trusting in the plain teaching that believers have eternal life and never perish, some want to twist the meaning of some verses as implying (though they don't state it) that men lose their (chance at) salvation.

Better to go with the plain statements of scripture which are spot on subject. Rest in the Savior. You may know whom you have believed and you may be persuaded that He is able to keep that which He has committed to you against that day.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Psalm 34:22
The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him will be condemned.

Jude 1:24
Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,

 

[Cassian]

You posted: (blue)

Yes, you said it, that is truth. That is not finalizing the cross, that by Christ we are forgiven, made whole, and until one accepts this fact and stops asking for more forgiveness when they sin, and sees what Christ did, gets to possibly see the new life in Spirit and truth, and walk in it, depending on one's motive to know this truth,


So what do you mean by "...until one accepts this fact and stops asking for more forgiveness when they sin.."

I have heard similar statements which make the assumption that Christ unilaterally forgave sins on the Cross. If that were actually true, then all the sins of the world were forgiven, since He propitiated the sin of the world.

 

[SeaBass]

All of God's Word is truth. But figurative stories require propositional teaching to guide the interpretation. I don't recall in the Prodigal Son Parable any mention of salvation, trusting Christ as Savior, getting eternal life; going to the Lake of Fire or avoiding it.

I do see it as illustrating that God is very forgiving. The Prodigal didn't have to do any works to be accepted by the Father there. The Prodigal had no self-righteousness to plead to get into the Father's House. And despite wasting his money on riotous living (I think it was his brother that accused of harlots -- maybe judging?), he was immediately accepted when the Prodigal presented himself as a sinner. He faced the judgment of the Father with no meritorious works, yet was accepted into the House.

You need a verse somewhere that speaks about a man maintaining his salvation. I don't recall that ever being said. Let us refrain from making up things.

There is indication that certain gross-sin behavior patterns (like fornication and lying) indicates a man was never saved and is heading for the Lake of Fire. But as a matter of fact, in many things we all stumble, and even Christians need to be confessing sin.

Some simply want the parable to teach eternal security so they need to get the FACT that the prodigal spent money on harlots (verse 30) out of the parable for it presents a serious problem for ES. For then they have a man living in fornication yet still maintaining his salvation.

Yet the parable refutes ES for the father says "for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

He was spiritually alive, became spiritually dead, then was spiritually alive AGAIN

In Lk 15 the sheep was "lost" the coin was "lost" and the son was "lost"
I personally do not search for things that are not lost. According to ES, it would be IMPOSSIBLE for the sheep, coin or son to become "lost"...but they did.
.

There are many verses that says the Christian must keep/maintain good works, Christ's works, faith etc to remained in a saved position. Rev 2:26; 1 Jn 2:5; 3:24; Jn 8:51; James 1:27 etc, etc

 

[Atwood]

Jude 1:1 "Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:


One can fall away from this foreknown/predestined group and become lost for being OUTSIDE of the group. They can repent and return to this foreknown/predestined group have have the promise of salvation again. The individual outside of the group is nothing, is lost.

Seabass, Jude says no such thing. Now there you go again, just up and saying things. Everyone who is foreknown is foreordained, everyone who is foreordained is justified; everyone who is justified is glorified!

Prove your canards or retract. And also prove that individuals are never said to be elect. While you say the above (with no scripture basis), the Word of God says:

End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are
called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things?
Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God who justifies;
who is he who condemns?
It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[SeaBass]

Kindly refrain from making up stuff. The text doesn't say that, and if they could not be called preserved if they were not preserved.



If the Lord Jesus does not save us, we won't be saved. He ever lives to make intercession for the believer. Luke 22 certainly doesn't indicate that a believer loses faith. Instead we see an example of why a believer did not lose faith -- the intercessory work of the Savior. Once saved, one enters the MUCH MORE care of the Savior.

Rom 5

But God commends his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through him. For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life;

Jude 1:1 is not made up stuff, some just reject it is seems.

The Lord saves but the issue is who and why does He save. Heb 5:9 those that obey (present tense) Christ are the ones He saves. If one quits obeying Christ which is disobedience/sin will not be saved. God has vengeance upon those that "obey not" the gospel of Christ, 2 Thess 1:8.

 

[Cassian]

WHY GRASP AT STRAWS TO DENY REAL SALVATION?

Is that what is necessary to maintain your righteousness, instead of coming to the Lord with God be merciful to me a sinner?

Some seem very invested in denying the security of a man who is securely saved. So we see verses claimed as proving that Christians who trusted Christ as SAvior somehow losing "salvation," which must be redefined as a chance at eternal life. Verses are claimed that don't say salvation, eternal life, or believe in them. So instead of trusting in the plain teaching that believers have eternal life and never perish, some want to twist the meaning of some verses as implying (though they don't state it) that men lose their (chance at) salvation.

Better to go with the plain statements of scripture which are spot on subject. Rest in the Savior. You may know whom you have believed and you may be persuaded that He is able to keep that which He has committed to you against that day.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Psalm 34:22
The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him will be condemned.

Jude 1:24
Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,

The plain teaching of scripture denies OSAS. It never has been a teaching of scripture and never will be. The texts you quote again have conditions in them.

 

[newbirth]

Do you deny God's Power to keep safe His Saints ? Yes or No ? And what is your purpose in quoting those scriptures ? Please explain !

Are you denying he gave you power to become a Son of God yes or no
some will not overcome
[SUP]7 [/SUP]He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.[h=3]John 1:11-13[/h]King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]11 [/SUP]He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[RickyZ]

I have heard similar statements which make the assumption that Christ unilaterally forgave sins on the Cross. If that were actually true, then all the sins of the world were forgiven, since He propitiated the sin of the world.

Actually Christ did forgive the sin of the whole world. But not all of the whole world will accept it. It's kinda the same concept - God is universally forgiving and keeping. But we have the obligation to temporally accept/reject/stay in it.

You have to understand the power of sin. When you submit to a demon yanking on your leash (ie you sin), you empower it over you. Confession is the way you rebuke that. In God's mind, salvation forgiveness is a once per lifetime event, and the power of sin has no effect on it. But the power of sin in the here and now is that if you submit to an authority, you're submitted to an authority... until you rebuke it.

 

[SeaBass]

To the contrary, when prophet Paul answered the question , What must I do to be saved, the answer had only "believe" in it, nothing else.

Yes, prophet Paul went on to give the jailer more teaching, none of which is recorded. Note that the jailer rejoiced greatly having believed in God.



The answer to the question about what he should do to be saved was not to believe things. It was to believe in a person -- the SAvior, the Lord Jesus. And only one action by a man was called for in the answer: Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. And there was no indicated wait in the text for the answer, but an immediate answer is written:

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved."



Logical fallacy. That the jailer was given more "word of the Lord" from prophet Paul, is no indication that Paul taught him that anything besides belief saves. Because Mark wrote a gospel and that gospel speaks about baptism, does not prove that Paul quoted Mark or said Mark 16:16. The word of the Lord includes the healing of the lepers. The fact that Paul gave out the word of the Lord hardly implies that Paul told the jailer that leper story.



The only obedience which saves is the command to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. If you postulate that your good works done in obedience to the Lord, save, then you are denying that Christ is your only and sufficient Savior and making yourself a Savior. But you, a sinner, cannot save yourself. "There is none that does good, no not one." "All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags."

Drop any religious pride. He came not to call the righteous, but sinners to a change of mind.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works lest anyone should boast.

Again, Paul said "believe" and not "believe only". Adding the word "only" to the verse perverts God's word where one no longer has what God said. The participle phrase "having believed" in v34 sums up ALL the jailer had just done in verse 33 which includes his repentance as seen by washing their stripes and being baptized. How one can read verse 33 and come away saying the jailer "believed only" is beyond me.

My point was that when the jailer was commanded to believe in v31 he was not yet told who or what to believe. He did not know who or what to believe until he heard the word of the Lord, v32 cf Rom 10:17 > faith cometh by hearing, hearing by the word of God. Teaching the word of the Lord includes teaching baptism, Mk 16:16.

Phillip taught "Jesus" to the eunuch > baptized
Paul taught "the word of the Lord" to the jailer > baptized

Obviously teaching the word of the Lord means teaching baptism. Furthermore, comparing Acts 2:41 with v44 the word "believed" in v44 includes being baptized of verse 41.

Acts 2:41 " Then they that gladly received his word were baptized..." Conversely those that rejected Peter's "words" rejected baptism. So the jailer would have been rejecting those "words of the Lord" told him by Paul if he had NOT been baptized.

 

[SeaBass]

Well Seabass,
do you think we can really settle Calvin's hash on this forum and come up with the absolute and definitive proof of the implications of election and predestination here? Your bold letters prove nothing.

But we can read about election and stand in awe of the Lord.

Calvinistic election/predestination does nothing but put fault and blame upon God therefore should easily be rejected.

 

[SeaBass]

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Eternal security says one can quit doing His commands thereby become a disobedient sinner yet still enter the gates bring their sin with them.

 

[SeaBass]

The purpose of my bringing this scripture up had nothing to do with how to become a sheep. It was to show the fallacy of eternal security. I disagree that this passage covers those who choose themselves to stop following Christ.
Gal.5:4;II Tim.4:1; Heb. 10:26-27; Heb. 6:4-6; II Pet.2:20-21; Heb. 3:12-14; Jas. 5 19-20; Col. 1:22-23; among others shows that a Christian can so conduct himself as to finally be lost if he does not repent. In first John I:7-9, we are told that Jesus blood Cleanses us from all sin as long as we walk in the light. That is conditional.

The qualification for being one of "MY" sheep is hearing and following so if one quits hearing and following he is disqualified from being one of "MY" sheep

 

[SeaBass]

Yes its satanic heresy to deny eternal security, its an attack on God. In fact those Christ died for were Eternally Secure while they were unbelievers and hating God !

sigh,,, this comes from someone who holds to a man-made theology that puts fault and blame upon God while making God to commit sin.

 

[RickyZ]

My nephew, who in his teens and 20's was a huge Jesus freak, now in his 30's says there is no God and that salvation in Jesus is a flat out lie.

So, because he accepted it in his early years, he does not suffer the same fate as all blasphemers now?

I never did hear an OSAS proponent answer this question.