It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

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Mar 12, 2014
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Salvation is free for trusting Christ. He does the saving, we do the trusting. We offer not up our filthy rag works. It cost the Lord a lot of work. You must rest in the Lord to be saved.

Come unto Me all you who labor and are heavy laden and I will give y you rest.

Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

You misuse Isa 64:6 for obeying Gods will is not filthy rags, see Isa 64:5 where God meets/entreats/helps those that WORK RIGHTEOUSNESS.


Rom 11:6 works refer to works of keeping the OT law/works of merit. Rom 11:4 the ones that belonged to God are the ones that OBEYED God by not bowing to Baal in the OT. Under the NT those that are God's are the ones "according to the election of grace" that is, the ones that obey the gospel, cf Rom 10:16.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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It does not say they are kept by God.
It most certainly says that they are kept by the power of God, even if the agency is specified. You can debate if pistis here means God's faithfulness or man's faith. φρουρουμένους διὰ πίστεως.
But the keeping is not in doubt because of a specified agency. Neither do you have any right to insert what is not there, like if and only if man keeps faith.

Note that the parallel passage in Jude doesn't mention faith at all:

"Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:"

They are kept for Jesus Christ. So will you say that they may be lost because the time may come when the Father no longer cares about Jesus Christ -- He kept the Christian for Jesus, but some day they may be lost because the Father will stop loving and honoring His Son?

So long as the Father cares for the Son, we Christians shall be kept for Him. Now that doesn't include those playing church who were never saved but want their works validated instead of salvation.




Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:

It does not say they are kept by God without faith.

Faith comes by hearing the word of God, Rom 10:17 not something God randomly gives to some and randomly withholds from others thereby putting fault and blame upon God for those that are faithless.[/QUOTE]

Yes, faith comes by hearing the Word of God. So give ear as it is posted here.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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You say "individuals outside Christ were never saved and are not preserved" and that is because God NEVER unconditionally foreknew/predestined INDIVIDUALS as Calvinism says but God foreknew/predestined a GROUP and only those that are CONDITIONALLY in this GROUP are part of the elect/foreknown/predestined/preserved.

God foreknew/predestined the GROUP but God NEVER decided which iperson would or would not be in that group, that is a choice each man must make.
Bunch of verbage, Seabass. You give no proof from the Word of God. Faith comes by hearing the word of God, not made up speculation. Don't worry about Calvin, focus on the Word of God. You also don't have to figure out election and predestination to be saved. You just have to trust the Savior.


For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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If a Christian sins, does his sinning prove he was never saved to begin with?
In many ways we all stumble, Seabass. But there is a grossness of sin that indicates a man is not saved.

Come unto Me all you who labor and are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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You misuse Isa 64:6 for obeying Gods will is not filthy rags, see Isa 64:5 where God meets/entreats/helps those that WORK RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Prove your claim Seabass, if you can -- quote the verses.

Rom 11:6 works refer to works of keeping the OT law/works of merit. Rom 11:4 the ones that belonged to God are the ones that OBEYED God by not bowing to Baal in the OT. Under the NT those that are God's are the ones "according to the election of grace" that is, the ones that obey the gospel, cf Rom 10:16.
Prove it Seabass. Quote your texts and show the proof. Otherwise, don't expect to be believed
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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You are implying the Christian can QUIT walking in the light yet Christ's blood will wash away all his sins anyway, but the language does not allow for your misinterpretation.
You are the one making a faulty interpretation, a logical fallacy, denying an antecedent.
Prove your claim or retract.

Did God forgive those that crucified Christ even if they did not obey the gospel of Christ?
What does Father forgive them mean?
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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You say "individuals outside Christ were never saved and are not preserved" and that is because God NEVER unconditionally foreknew/predestined INDIVIDUALS as Calvinism says but God foreknew/predestined a GROUP and only those that are CONDITIONALLY in this GROUP are part of the elect/foreknown/predestined/preserved.

God foreknew/predestined the GROUP but God NEVER decided which iperson would or would not be in that group, that is a choice each man must make.
Prove it or retract Seabass. Don't think you will be believed for pontificating.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Psalm 34:22
The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him will be condemned.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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Jude 1;1 "Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:"


The pronoun "them" refers to the group Christian for NO INDIVIDUAL is sanctified or preserved OUTSIDE of Christ unconditionally.
The claim is that those who trust Christ are eternally secure as He has paid for their sins and offered salvation on one condition only, trust in Him. There is no claim for unbelievers or persons playing church.

Colossians 1:13
He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,

Romans 8:32
He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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Jude 1:1 is not made up stuff, some just reject it is seems.

The Lord saves but the issue is who and why does He save. Heb 5:9 those that obey (present tense) Christ are the ones He saves. If one quits obeying Christ which is disobedience/sin will not be saved. God has vengeance upon those that "obey not" the gospel of Christ, 2 Thess 1:8.
Of course Jude is not made up. Christians are kept for Jesus Christ.

The only obedience required for salvation is to trust Christ as Savior as repeated over and over. You disobey that command when you offer the fig leaves and filthy rags of your miserable works.


JOHN 20:30
Many other signs therefore did Jesus in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.

Act 13:48
And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: 16 howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.

1 Tim 1:15-17
Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, even unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God.

Eph 1:10ff
to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will; 12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: 13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,— in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Luke 8:11-12
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 And those by the way side are they that have heard; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word from their heart, that they may not believe and be saved.

Acts 16:31a
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved

1 Cor 1:21
it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.

Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh shall be justified.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life.

John 3:14-18

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. 1For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. 1He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only Son of God.

John 5:24
2Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.

John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth hath eternal life.
 
Jan 21, 2013
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Are you denying he gave you power to become a Son of God yes or no
some will not overcome
[SUP]7 [/SUP]He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.[h=3]John 1:11-13[/h]King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]11 [/SUP]He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
It appears to me that you deny the Power of God !
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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You misuse Isa 64:6 for obeying Gods will is not filthy rags, see Isa 64:5 where God meets/entreats/helps those that WORK RIGHTEOUSNESS.[/unquote]

"For from of old men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither has the eye seen a God besides thee, who works for him who waits for him. You meet him who rejoices and works righteousness, those who remember you in your ways. Behold, you were wroth, and we sinned: in them have we been of long time; and shall we be saved? For we are all become as one that is unclean, and all our righteousnesses are as a polluted garment: and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. And there is none who calls upon thy name, who stirs up himself to take hold of you; for you have hid your face from us and have consumed us by means of our iniquities."

You call attention to the positive statement:
"
You meet him who rejoices and works righteousness, those who remember you in your ways."

Is this hypothetical in view of the statement that none calls upon thy name?

There is the principle. But the we in the passage does not qualify.
The "we" sinned. Is it fair to say the "we" has been in sin from long ago?
We fade;
We have iniquities,
We are taken away by iniquities.
None calls on His name.
The "we" has been consumed by reason of "our" iniquities.

Which side will you claim?
That of the Pharisee who bragged on his righteousness?
Or that of the publican who cried out, "God be merciful to me a sinner"?

Come ye sinners,
Tired and weary,
Weak and wounded,
Sick and sore;
If you tarry till your better,
You will never come at all.
Not the righteous, not the righteous,
Sinners Jesus came to call.

Consider the Word of God:

John 10:27
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,

1 John 5:10-12
He who believes on the Son of God hath the witness in him:
he that believes not God hath made him a liar; because he hath not believed in the witness that God hath borne concerning his Son. And the witness is this, that God gave unto us eternal life,and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath the life; he that hath not the Son of God hath not the life.

Ps 37:5-6
Commit thy way unto YHWH;
Trust also in him, and he will bring it to pass.
And he will make thy righteousness to go forth as the light,
And thy justice as the noonday.

John 15:9
And God, who knows the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them,
cleansing their hearts by faith.

Acts 26:18b
that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me.







 
Jan 21, 2013
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Heb 6;4-6

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put
him to an open shame.


Obviously those that have been enlightened (come out of darkness), tasted the heavenly gift, made partakers of the Holy Ghost and tastes the word of God and powers to come are Christians. And the "they" in verse 6 refers to these Christians.

Heb 10:9 is showing the confidence of the Hebrew writer that those Christian Jews would not end up as those in verse 6.
Heb 6:9 exposes your false interpretation !
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
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Actually Christ did forgive the sin of the whole world. But not all of the whole world will accept it. It's kinda the same concept - God is universally forgiving and keeping. But we have the obligation to temporally accept/reject/stay in it.

You have to understand the power of sin. When you submit to a demon yanking on your leash (ie you sin), you empower it over you. Confession is the way you rebuke that. In God's mind, salvation forgiveness is a once per lifetime event, and the power of sin has no effect on it. But the power of sin in the here and now is that if you submit to an authority, you're submitted to an authority... until you rebuke it.
Find any biblical of secular dictionary that states that propitiation means forgiveness. We don't accept what Christ did on the Cross either. It is impossible. We are required to believe that Christ saved the world. By believing we are accepting His offer of eternal life. Repentance is required to enter and that is where one's past sins are forgiven. There is NO unilateral forgiveness of sin. As a beleiver we must confess our sins and He is able to forgive them. Unconfessed sin will/can condemn one.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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Find any biblical of secular dictionary that states that propitiation means forgiveness.
Secular dictionaries? What you want is a Greek dictionary for the word group ἱλαστήριον (verb hilaskomai, related to the word hilarious in English). Propitiation is one of 3 Great word groups for the atonement of Christ (others = redemption & reconciliation, literally thorough-change-tion). Redeem actually encompasses 2 concepts: 1) buy out & 2) set free. Whoever wrote more profoundly on this subject than St. Anselm, I mean apart from scripture itself.

Having studied this term, my conclusion is that to propitiate includes the idea of satisfaction of wrath, though it is actually positive, "to render favorably disposed," similar to the fact that justification doesn't mean mere "just as if I never sinned" forgiveness, but includes a declaration of positive righteousness.

On the cross the Lord Jesus paid for our sins. His death buys out and sets free; it throughly changes status, it renders the Lord favorably disposed.

1 John 2:2 tells us that the Lord Jesus is the propitiation not just for the sins of Christians, but for all the world. Nonetheless, some persons still go to the Lake of Fire. The value of Christ's death is appropriated by faith, by trusting in Him.

We are required to believe that Christ saved the world.
That is untrue if you mean that everyone goes to Heaven as a result. He does provide universal salvific results in that the lost have this life of probation, in which there is time to trust Christ as SAvior. Moreover, the rain falls on the just and on the unjust. "4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;"

By believing we are accepting His offer of eternal life.
What a great confession!

Repentance is required to enter and that is where one's past sins are forgiven.
The only repentance that save is that change of mind from not trusting the Lord Jesus as savior to trusting Him as SAvior. Metanoia is a change of mind. The metamelomai repentance is sorrow for sin, which saves no one, like Judas who repented in that sense, then hanged himself.

There is NO unilateral forgiveness of sin.
Your saying this proves nothing. Prove it or retract.

Unconfessed sin will/can condemn one.
Your saying this proves nothing. Prove that if a Christian has unconfessed sin he then goes to the Lake of Fire. If unconfessed sin damned the Christian, surely they would all go the Lake of Fire, as who even remembers all his sins.

You claim:
Repentance is required to enter and that is where one's past sins are forgiven.
If you mean that only past sins are forgiven, then prove that or retract.


"Even as David also pronounceth blessing upon the man, unto whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin."

Rom 8
Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect?
It is God who justifies;
who is he who condemns?

[Answer, it is Cassian!]
It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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Don't matter what you don't see, all for whom Christ died are made righteous by His obedience Rom 5:19 !
What the obtuse doesn't get here is that Romans 5 explains why we are sinners & why we are righteous, if indeed we are righteous. If we are sinners it is because we belonged to Adam.
If we are righteous it is because we are in Christ.

Do we have Romanists or "Orthodox" here who never heard of imputation?