deep thoughtss you struggle with

Witness45 · May 29, 2014

jos said:

(I can't believe I'm still doing this with you) Look, infinity is a mathematical concept, not an actuality. We can comprehend infinity but it cannot actually be. A rock is a finite thing. You can't have an flippin 'infinite rock' because a rock is a finite thing. "Oh, I'll create an infinitely finite thing!" No you won't, that's a logical contradiction. Just like a square circle, the two negate each other.

Second, the universe isn't infinite. There is a finite amount of stars in the sky, a finite amount of time in the past, and a finite amount of space out there as well. Yes, finite space. I'm sure you'll fly back with that one so allow me shoot you down before you even take off. Scientist Edwin Hubble looked through his famous Hubble Telescope in 1927 and discovered a "red shift" in the light of distant galaxies proving that 3-dimentional space itself is expanding. Why is this important? Because you can't add to infinity. If you say you can, so help me I will have to come through this computer screen and slap you.

Lastly, God is infinite because he is a mind. As I said, the concept of infinity can be somewhat comprehended, but it cannot become a finite actuality. Therefore it is entirely possible for God to know all things without bringing all things into existence. It simply means he comprehends everything.

jos · May 29, 2014

Witness45 said:

To start with your last sentence: if i was strong enough with the english language, i would totally crush your arguments. A pity i can't speak in my native language, Dutch. Nevertheless, i don't give up. Isn't christianity all about hope?

Before i can go any further, you should just take a look at this: 15 Answers to Creationist Nonsense - Scientific American
The Scientific American isn't just a regular magazine, is it? those guys are the scientists of america, the ones who make your pc, deliver your power, and invent new technologies. if you want to contradict them, go ahead... Try to prove wrong the geniusses of nowadays.

next: you said: 'Solomon was the wisest man who ever lived' . Well, he might been indeed the wisest man on earth until then. the bible doesn't speak about the future. and if he was indeed the wisest, why didn't he invent E=mc2 ?? another genius did that, what he could not apperantly. and if you correlate wisdom to logic, i have this nice picture for you:

wisdom indeed can't exist without logic, but wisdom completly made out of logic would be worth nothing. logic is not the highest possible value for intelligence to get. and you aren't going to tell me solomon was smarter than Einstein, Nietzsche, Stephen Hawking, Socrates, Diogenes, Newton, Dirac, Heisenberg, Mozart, ... Technological evolution is now going faster than ever. More and more mindblowing things are being discovered in a very short time, like quantummechanics and astronomics. Solomon could not do this, i'm very sure. So there is a evolution in what you would call 'logic'.

Finally: i never said there is no logic, i only said there is no logic in certain things, wich is not the same. and after i just said that logic does not totally corralate with wisdom, i did not said god isnt wise. logic is something we have as humans, and what we try to give the universe. but why would the universe be logical? why would god be logical? logic is not the end, nor the begin of things. it's our understanding of the world. you can also see that some people even have an other logic than others. like psychokillers. their logic is different than ours, but it is still 'a logic', but their logic. it is logical for them. so if logic is subjective, not objecitive, it isn't universal.

well, i hope you enjoyed reading this. i don't expect that you believe me, i just want to prove you wrong. the same you try do to with me. let the game continue

because it will not end. we cant trap each other. we will always find a way out the chains of argument of the otherones. we can only continue. but i will enjoy this

i will end with some words of some of the greatest minds ever lived:

note that this does not count for god, only humans

jos · May 29, 2014

Man22Christ said:

i'll philosophate with you later.

i'm busy winning an argument with some other guys now

maybe you want to join in?

JustAnotherUser · May 29, 2014

If this is all about winning then you already lost...

jos · May 29, 2014

Witness45 said:

at first: can we discuss more politly? i don't like the idea you slapping me or saying i'm even too dumb for you to argue with.
the tought to be right does not give you the right to be mean, you know.

about infinity: yes, there is an finite amount of space. but what do you expect to be outside our universe then? an infinite nothing? the thing outside has to be infinite, not? because where something ends, something new starts. every child knows that. and i expressed myself wrong with the word 'universe', that's correct, my excuses.

then: i can prove your 'mind' is just your brain. so, if a mind is infinite, so the matter has to be. or god's mind is not the kind of mind we have. but that mind cannot be made of anything we know then. not matter, energy, not even dark matter. still, it has to be made of something. and that something is infinite then. so: something can be infinite. the red shift you are referring to is the doppler-effect. just to know. i'm aware if that. i'm not stupid. besides: multiversetheory predicts there are more universes outside our universe. so there is probably some more outside ours. who says that isn't infinite?

about your rock: it's not that you don't know a rock that is infinite, doesn't mean it can't be made. why do you say god can't make certain things? i indeed can't make that rock, but why would god, with his infinite power, can't just make an infinite rock? not because he didn't do it before, means that he can't.

jos · May 29, 2014

JustAnotherUser said:

only god knows

but think about this: if god controls everything (not my opinion, but of some people) , i can't kept responsable for losing or winning. it's just god who makes me win or lose. i can't change that. so if the other one wins, he did not won. he was just a controlled puppet.
and that thing about winning, was just a little joke. look at my other text.

Witness45 · May 29, 2014

jos said:

This really comes down to an authority issue. Who do you believe: God, or fallible scientists? God's word, or man's word? Science itself doesn't say anything, scientists do. All evidence must be interpreted. So what if scientists say it's true? They want it to be true. I don't care what scientists say, I care what evidence says and what the Bible says. If scientists say something that is contrary to the Bible, then scientists are wrong. Not only that, but nothing they've said that is contradictory is substantiated by evidence. Scientists once believed that the sun revolved around the earth, that if you're sick you have 'bad blood' and should be drained of your innards, and that the earth has perpetuated in a 'steady state', etc. All of which scientifically proven to be false. Like I said, evidence requires interpretation. Man's word is fallible, God's word is infallible...

You want science articles? Check out Answers in Genesis. It has all the scientific evidence creationists need to not only refute evolution, as well as support creation.
https://answersingenesis.org/answers/

Most importantly though, watch this simple video, it should show you the foolishness of Evolution right off the bat:
Evolution Vs. God Movie - YouTube

jos said:

Once again we have an authority issue. The Bible is the word of God, and the Bible says Solomon was the wisest. That should be the end of the story.

E=mc2 was not "invented", it was discovered btw, and you're confusing knowledge with wisdom. Sure, Einstein know a lot of things, and had great problem solving skills, that doesn't mean he was wise, it means he was knowledgeable. There is no evolution of logic, there is an increase in knowledge. That's all. We know more how the universe works, and are able to manipulate it because of that. Yes we are more knowledgeable in our modern times, but that doesn't mean we are more logical and wise.

Also, Leonard Nimoy is a renowned atheist. I don't care what he says. He, like you, philosophically denies the existence of the immaterial world and then asserts some truth about the immaterial laws of logic. I stand by the Word of God, not the word of ignorant men.

jos said:

Logic has to be absolute and objective in order for it to exist. There's no such thing as 'subjective logic', just as there's no such thing as 'subjective math'. If I said 2+2=5, would I be right or wrong? Wrong. Why? Because it's absolute and applies to everyone. If what I said was right, and what you said was right, and they were both contradictory, then mathematics doesn't exist. This is just absurd.

Besides, if logic is subjective to the individual, why even both reasoning with me at all? Your logic may not be the same as mine. I guess you're going by your logic, and I'm going by my logic, and somehow we're both magically right. This makes reasoning impossible if there's no objective standard.

Honestly man, idk why I'm even doing this with you still. I've never had this stupid of a conversation before in my life. To deny that logic exists and say it's subjective? Prove to me that 2+2=fish, then we'll talk...

Animus · May 29, 2014

jos said:

I can post an article disproving evolution just as easily as you can post one refuting creationism, but that doesn't make for good conversation 9 Scienctific Facts Prove the "Theory of Evolution" is False | Humans Are Free and Prove Evolution Is False - Even Without the Bible - Vertical Thought | United Church of God please read the whole thing before responding on this thread. See, not the best way to have a discussion. I can easily throw them at you and claim that I have won the argument unless you can refute every single claim made. Let's talk about the actual facts themselves and not what other people think or say about them.

You are using the words "wisdom", "logic" and "intelligence" almost interchangeably when they all mean different things.
Wisdom is understanding based on experience.
Intelligence is the understanding based on reasoning.
Logic is a form of reasoning by strict principals of validity.
Solomon could easily be the wisest man but not the smartest man. Einstein could easily be the smartest man but not the wisest man, as his experience in life was rather limited even though his mind was capable of great mathematical reasoning. Logic is very simple, and it is objective. It is primarily about clear definitions.

Take the proposition "It is raining and I am outside". This is a proposition because it is either true or false. No logic is being applied in this. If I say, "If it is raining and I am outside, then I will get wet", this too is a proposition, and it is either true or false. But if it is true, and I complete it by saying, "If it is raining and I am outside, then I will get wet, and it is raining and I am outside", then it is the application of logic that allows us to say that based on the validity of the proposition "If it is raining and I am outside, then I will get wet" and the fact that it is raining and I am outside, that the proposition "I will get wet" is also true. If however you came to the conclusion that though "If it is raining and I am outside, then I will get wet" and "It is raining and I am outside" are both true, and you concluded that I am therefore not wet, then you have applied improper logic. There will never be a time or place where logic is different then it is here.
If 1+1=2 and 2+2=4 then 1+1+1+1=4. It doesn't matter whether you are a physcopath, or a nun. Physcopaths and nuns come to different conclusions about many things because people do not always think logically or rationally. A man might see a plain flying and think that if he spreads his arms out and jumps off his home that he too will fly. He said to himself, "If a thing has outstretched parts like a plain, then it will fly", but this is false, and is a false conclusion that is a result of poor logic combined with physical observation. The real reason that a plain flies is much more complicated, and if you understand it, and can apply all the necessary aspects, then you can fly.

The proposition "The Earth orbits around the Sun" does not involve logical reasoning. The proposition may have been reached by using a mixture of logical reasoning and physical observations, but "true" and "logical" are not synonyms. A statement can be true, but only a process of reasoning can be logical or illogical.

Wisdom uses logical reasoning in the sense that you can be standing outside, and find that as it rains you get wet, and so you create the piece of wisdom, "If it is raining and I am outside, then I will get wet". This is combining logical reasoning with physical observations. But if you take away the physical observations, it is true you do not have wisdom, but you still have something meaningful and important, mostly math.

Witness45 · May 29, 2014

jos said:

I do honestly apologize. I've had a long day and my patience is wearing thin. It's entirely my fault, I'm sorry. But for the good of both of us, I'm gonna end this because this is just going no where fast. No since in logically reasoning with someone who denies logical reasoning itself.

penknight · May 29, 2014

I know one thing for sure.

The bible says lean not on your own understanding.
I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything like that, and I'm not trying to prove a point. I'm just throwing this out there.

jos · May 29, 2014

there are soooooo many wrong things in your post idk where to start...

first, you put words in my mouth i never spoke. where do you see 'logic doesnt exist' ? i just said 'for some things logic doesnt exist, because logic is human'

then, if you want to give me 'scientific' proves of creationis: i can give you even more who prove the opposed. so that's a dead end. we can't continue here.

you say scientists have made mistakes during history, wich is correct, because it are just humans. but let me point you at the uncountable mistakes the chuch made too. at last we are all just humans. also christians aren't perfect.

next, don't try to tell me the logical view of you and the logical view of hitler was the same. if it is, logic is objective. if it isn't, logic is subjective. your choise. and there is no correlation with math. you can perfectly have logic without math.

soooooo it all comes down to the question wich we cannot dispute, and what makes every discussion about religion eventually impossible: do i believe the bible litterally or not?
that is a question of faith wich cannot be discussed.
and the bible isn't always so 'logical'.
exemple:https://scottthong.wordpress.com/2007/03/29/response-to-the-letter-to-dr-laura-on-homosexuality/
Biblical Contradictions
if this is the objective 'logic' according to you, idk where the world will go...

to end: why do you always act like i'm the most dumbest person on earth? i've no problem of you thinking that, but do you really need to say it outloud every time? i mean i'm also thinking all the time: 'he is the most naive person i've ever seen', but i don't say it to you, because i might hurt you. do you like hurting people maybe?

jos · May 29, 2014

yeah, i agree we end this discussing. it leads to nowhere.
and i can understand totally you had a long day. no problem man
we have different thoughts, and that's good. a world where everyone thinks the same would be boring.

although i have to add i didn't deny logic

jos · May 29, 2014

Animus said:

I can post an article disproving evolution just as easily as you can post one refuting creationism, but that doesn't make for good conversation 9 Scienctific Facts Prove the "Theory of Evolution" is False | Humans Are Free and Prove Evolution Is False - Even Without the Bible - Vertical Thought | United Church of God please read the whole thing before responding on this thread. See, not the best way to have a discussion. I can easily throw them at you and claim that I have won the argument unless you can refute every single claim made. Let's talk about the actual facts themselves and not what other people think or say about them.

You are using the words "wisdom", "logic" and "intelligence" almost interchangeably when they all mean different things.
Wisdom is understanding based on experience.
Intelligence is the understanding based on reasoning.
Logic is a form of reasoning by strict principals of validity.
Solomon could easily be the wisest man but not the smartest man. Einstein could easily be the smartest man but not the wisest man, as his experience in life was rather limited even though his mind was capable of great mathematical reasoning. Logic is very simple, and it is objective. It is primarily about clear definitions.

Take the proposition "It is raining and I am outside". This is a proposition because it is either true or false. No logic is being applied in this. If I say, "If it is raining and I am outside, then I will get wet", this too is a proposition, and it is either true or false. But if it is true, and I complete it by saying, "If it is raining and I am outside, then I will get wet, and it is raining and I am outside", then it is the application of logic that allows us to say that based on the validity of the proposition "If it is raining and I am outside, then I will get wet" and the fact that it is raining and I am outside, that the proposition "I will get wet" is also true. If however you came to the conclusion that though "If it is raining and I am outside, then I will get wet" and "It is raining and I am outside" are both true, and you concluded that I am therefore not wet, then you have applied improper logic. There will never be a time or place where logic is different then it is here.
If 1+1=2 and 2+2=4 then 1+1+1+1=4. It doesn't matter whether you are a physcopath, or a nun. Physcopaths and nuns come to different conclusions about many things because people do not always think logically or rationally. A man might see a plain flying and think that if he spreads his arms out and jumps off his home that he too will fly. He said to himself, "If a thing has outstretched parts like a plain, then it will fly", but this is false, and is a false conclusion that is a result of poor logic combined with physical observation. The real reason that a plain flies is much more complicated, and if you understand it, and can apply all the necessary aspects, then you can fly.

The proposition "The Earth orbits around the Sun" does not involve logical reasoning. The proposition may have been reached by using a mixture of logical reasoning and physical observations, but "true" and "logical" are not synonyms. A statement can be true, but only a process of reasoning can be logical or illogical.

Wisdom uses logical reasoning in the sense that you can be standing outside, and find that as it rains you get wet, and so you create the piece of wisdom, "If it is raining and I am outside, then I will get wet". This is combining logical reasoning with physical observations. But if you take away the physical observations, it is true you do not have wisdom, but you still have something meaningful and important, mostly math.

i don't have the time nor the motivation to answer this fully. it's late in the evening here.
what i do wanna say is that you put some words in my mouth i did not use. our understanding of 'intelligence', 'logic', and 'wisdom' might be a little different. sometimes you also seem to understand me wrong: when i mean a psychopat has an other logic, i mean things like: 'it's normal to kill', or 'what's wrong with eating people?'. that's logical for that man, but not for us.
i also did not say: 'logic=truth'
my english is also not of a high standart because it's my thirth language. because of that i might use some words wrong, but i hope you get my point every time.
for the logic you should read my last text.
with the article i just wanted to show some prove that i'm not just saying anything without background. it's wasn' meant to be read fully.

Animus · May 29, 2014

jos said:

When you talk about the psychopath here you are crossing into a different territory entirely, namely morality. Both the killer and the nun conclude from logic reasoning and physical observation that when you stick a knife in a man's throat he is likely to die. But there is no way to logically conclude that there is anything wrong with that. Morality can not be derived using abstract reasoning. You might say, "Killing people is wrong", if I ask you why you might tell me, "Killing hurts people", but why is hurting people wrong? How do you know that this is true? You might answer, "Because I don't like when people hurt me", but why does what you like play a roll in what is right? The killer likes killing, and he doesn't like being put in jail, yet when he kills someone and we put him in jail we see that it is justice. He would disagree, but the disagreement just further shows us that there is a right answer to the question. If I ask everyone on this forum "What is 17/4?" I would no doubt get a bunch of different answers. Does this mean math is subjective? Not at all. There is one right answer. Just because people have different answers doesn't change the fact that only one is right.

You can use logic to show that rape hurts people, but since you don't have any way of knowing that hurting people is wrong, that is as far as the logic extends. But we have been given an intuition about morality that is supernatural, and comes from God. We have ideas about right and wrong, and even though we hate to admit it sometimes, it matters to us a lot. When we do something wrong it is always followed by a string of excuses because we cannot bare the idea that we have really done wrong. God has gone a step further and given us The Bible to give us the fundamental pieces of morality that we cannot discover using logic. Lying, cheating, stealing, adultery, murder, etc.. Lists of things that are inherently wrong, regardless of what people think, or want, or like, or who is hurt, or who is helped. These are the axioms, and from there you can apply logic to discover what else is wrong. But without axioms, given statements known to be true, we cannot prove anything.

jos · May 29, 2014

this is going to bring us too far in endless discussions.
although i don't agree, i can understand your point.
my english isn't strong enough to point out such a grammar difference.
and i have to go to sleep.

maxwel · May 29, 2014

jos said:

Proverbs 21:30
There is no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the LORD.

jos · May 29, 2014

to talk about something different

i have been thinking about this one lately:
[h=1]“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”[/h]
― Albert Einstein

jos · May 29, 2014

maxwel said:

i already said it was meant as a joke -_-
don't keep taking me on that guys

faroukfarouk · May 29, 2014

I'm having trouble following the train of thought of this conversation. Maybe it's just me...

jos · May 30, 2014

yeah, it could just be you...
no

it is indeed quite messed up.
that's because i had to answer many people
but let's continue with the real purpose of this thread: posting thoughts you struggle with

deep thoughtss you struggle with

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